Children of Hurin

[Arataniello]

I was under the impression Morgoth had all the flying birds and beasts (crows etc) working for him the same as Sauron later? And didn't Ancalagon end up in Angband with Sauron before even Morgoth came back from Valinor?

Ancalagon and other winged dragons did not make an appearance until the War of Wrath at the very end of the First Age. Worms appear to have been devised by Morgoth only after the defeat of the Dagor Aglareb (the third battle) - Glaurung in his full might lead the charge in the Fourth Battle.

Morgoth's association with 'creatures of blood' was an element in the Book of Lost Tales and earlier versions of the history of Beleriand, but appears to have been dropped from the later Silmarillion. It certainly isn't mentioned in the published Silm, nor in the two First Age texts in Unfinished Tales.

Aratan

[niamh]

It has been told how by the guidance of Ulmo Turgon of Nevrast discovered the hidden vale of Tumladen; and that (as was after known) lay east of the upper waters of Sirion, in a ring of mountains tall and sheer, and no living thing came there save the eagles of Thorondor.

The mountains were probably too high for anything except the eagles.

[Eurytus]

Sauron had Thuringwethil before Ancalagon appeared - but just what the abilities of her 'bat hame' were is unclear. Luthien managed to use it fly to Angband from Tol-in-Gaurhoth, but there wasn't much height involved in that journey.

How far Ulmo's protection extended in not easy to judge. ISTR he certainly implies in his discussion with Tuor that his protection is slowly being withdrawn from the general area.

Aratan

I got the impression that it was the Eagles that kept intruders away from Gondolin.

[Ran]

Wert,

I'm not sure of the exact status of what can or can't be said right now about specific artists. We've asked, though.

[Brude]

I'd like to see artists go on a different tack than is usually presented. Like say go for a Roman look for Numenoreans or somesuch.

The first Tolkein paintings I ever saw were by Darryl K. Sweet who did one of the calendars back in the early or mid-80's, a few paintings of which were on the covers of the first paper-back set of Tolkein's books that I owned. He's a good artist but not great - better at rendering people than Nasmith, but his use of color is not nearly so good as any of the big three. Anyway, the cover of the Silmarillion that I had used a picture of The Fall of Numenor which showed waves crashing in, destroying very Greco-Roman style buildings. A lot of white columns and such.

What are peoples' feelings about Ian Miller's work? He's definitely got his own style, not realistic at all but I've always thought he was a really interesting, unique and excellent artist.

As for the book Children of Hurin, well, I finished it about a week and a half ago and have been meaning to post on it. I will say that the opening chapter had me rolling my eyes a bit because it was almost unreadable - it read more like a chapter in the Bible than in a novel. But this is a mythic tale, so in a way it may be appropriate. At its best, I think the book has haunting stretches of beauty and some wonderful storytelling but on the other hand I don't think it comes even remotely close to LotR, The Hobbit or even The Silmarillion.

It's a bit of a hard read because Turin's tale is so relentlessly grim and expanded to this long form you really get a better sense of just how much loss he experiences in his life. Pretty much everything he touches and anyone he gets close to is destroyed for it. Only Melian's power seems to be strong enough to ward off danger from her's and Thingol's kingdom. But even there his dark fate managed to draw away several strong and important people, and to their deaths. I think in the shorter form of The Silmarillion this grimness wasn't quite so apparent, nor was it in the Lays of Beleriand because of the startling power of the Anglo-Saxon verse Tolkein used in that attempt (it kills me he never finished those two poems - had he, I think they would have been considered his masterpieces and not LotR, they are simply exquisite).

In the end, I felt very satisfied having read the story, but I did not feel a great love for it the way I did with Tolkein's other works. It doesn't sustain the sense of wonder I had with his other books, and especially not compared to LotR (a wonder I still feel when rereading it). Some parts will stand out in my memory for a long time, that is for certain. When Tolkein is at his best, like when describing place, the images remain indelibly etched into one's mind.

[Calibandar]

Werthead and others, re: Gondolin's protection:

JRRT, here an early quote:

... Manwe had sent forth the race of Eagles. Thorondor was their king. And Manwë commanded them to dwell in the crags of the North, and keep watch upon Morgoth; for Manwë still had pity for the exiled Elves. And the Eagles brought news of much that passed in those days to the sad ears of Manwë; and they hindered the deeds of Morgoth

Since there are occasions of Eagles protecting Men and Elves throughout the ages there seems to be no reason for why this would be rejected later on. We know that Thorondor took and guarded Fingolfin's fallen body post his battle against Morgoth as well.

As illustrated by Niamh's quote, the Eagles patrolled the Tumladen region.

[niamh]

Glad someone finally noticed I posted it.

It's from the Silmarillion.

Thanks for the review brude; I agree with you for the lays. The Lay of Leithian is a joy.

[Arataniello]

Got my copy this morning, finally, and will be devouring during the rest of the week. I immediately flicked to the part of the tale that I knew was the biggest hole - Turin in Nargothrond - but it looks like there is not much new information. Most of what is here published was already given in the Narn in UT, with some minor details added (Gwindor's left arm being one example).

One noteworthy detail is the start of the chapter on the Fall of Nargothrond, where we get the detail that Turin is in Nargothrond for FIVE years before Arminas and Gelmir appear with Ulmo's warning. Previously the length of time that Turin dwelt in Nargothrond could only be speculated on.

Aratan

[Calibandar]

Just finished "Children of Hurin".

On it's own this will easily stand out as one of the best Fantasy books in 2007. I thought it was a great read, this book has the most complete Turin story and if you've read this one I don't think you'll hunger for more, since it is so finite. However if you are curious about what happens to Hurin Thalion himself, read The Wanderings of Hurin from "War of the Jewels".

As expected the book was less exciting to me than it would probably be to newcomers who've only read the LoTR or just the one Turin chapter from the Silmarillion. If you've also read the Narn from Unifinished Tales there is not much new under the sun. That said, it is a very poignant story, one of the saddest I know, I found myself deeply irritated and admiring Turin Turambar at different turns. Yes he was cursed by Morgoth, but a good deal of his misfortune also came because of his character. I also find it interesting taht if he had stayed in Doriath, Morgoth' shadow would have passed from him, since Morgoth could never penetrate there due to Melian's great power.

[Werthead]

Finally read it myself.

As has already been said, there's not much that's different here compared to the version in Unfinished Tales, but Alan Lee's excellent illustrations tip the book into the 'worthwhile purchase' category. I found it interesting that the book does confirm that some elves reincarnate after death (so what happened to Luthien wasn't a one-off) and even that this was common knowledge among the Edain as well as the elves.

[Arthmail]

Firstly, in regards to Ian Millers art....i hate it. It does not, in any way do anything for me. I think it looks the exact opposite of what Tolkien's world is supposed to look like. Its very original, but that sort of art does nothing for me.

As for Children of Hurin, i loved it. I loved it when i read it in Unfinished Tales. I bought the book, and then found out they had the collectors edition, so i gifted the first book and bought the second.

Unlike some, i would rate this up there with the Silmarillion and LOTR. There is an aching sorrow in the book, and i really enjoy it, though i wish Hurin/Turin and all of them would have just a little more luck. They really got the short end of the stick.

[Vethnar]

Thanks for the review, Werthead!

I found it interesting that the book does confirm that some elves reincarnate after death (so what happened to Luthien wasn't a one-off) and even that this was common knowledge among the Edain as well as the elves.

It is also common knowledge among Tolkien fanatics, since a long time. Almost all elves (or at least the eldar) reincarnate after some time in Mandos, with a few exceptions like Feanor. This is explained in great detail in one of the History of Middle-Earth books. I don't recall which one, and I don't have the books here, but it was probably Morgoth's Ring.

[matt b]

Unlike some, i would rate this up there with the Silmarillion and LOTR. There is an aching sorrow in the book, and i really enjoy it, though i wish Hurin/Turin and all of them would have just a little more luck. They really got the short end of the stick.

I agree with you completely! This was always my favorite story from the Silmarillion. It's probably the most heartbreaking of all of Tolkien's stories. I usually get a little misty eyed when Hurin runs into Morwen at their children's grave.