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AFFC Reread Project - Cersei


cteresa

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Thread to discuss Cersei´s PoV chapters and the Prologue. Provisory schedule dates to start such discussion

5-Dez-05 Cersei 1 page 47 to 56

19-Dez-05 Cersei 2 page 99 to 115

16-Jan-06 Cersei 3 page 173 to 184

30-Jan-06 Cersei 4 page 238 to 254

27-Fev-06 Cersei 5 page 344 to 362

13-Mar-06 Cersei 6 page 411 to 426

27-Mar-06 Cersei 7 page 473 to 486

10-Abr-06 Cersei 8 page 529 to 546

17-Abr-06 Cersei 9 page 575 to 604

1-Mai-06 Cersei 10 page 642 to 518

UK hardback page numbers

Will change above if there are any mistakes (please let me know!) or alterations.

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I will kick this off with a few comments.

The chapter starts with Cersei having a nightmare that is a fairly accurate picture of what is going to happen to her in this book. She is trying to rule while everyone laughs at her incompetence and the Iron Throne slowly slices her up. Lannisters fearing being laughed at is something of a theme in the series: Tyrion was afraid of it in ACoK; Tywin's whole life seemed driven by the need to ensure that no one ever laughed at a Lannister again; even Jaime seems sometimes to positively court being feared and hated as preferable to some of the other things people might think of him.

In one sense this chapter was something of a disappointment, because it does not take us any further with the question of what Shae was doing in Tywin's bed. Almost the only hint is that nobody except for Cersei seems to be at all surprised to see her there (it is not clear whether anyone other than Cersei realises that it is Tyrion's ex whore.). So we can probably conclude that Tywin did indeed use whores, which fits with the idea that he had no objection to them per se, just felt that it was important to keep them in their place.

There is the odd anomaly of Cersei ordering the Kettleblacks to take Shae's body to the dungeons via the secret tunnel before Jaime even returns from exploring it. Not sure what to make of that.

Jaime refuses Cersei's offer to be Hand with his comment about being one short. She slaps him, and he fails to catch the blow because his reflexes have not learnt his hand is no longer there. Hah!

Finally, we get confirmation that even Cersei knew that Renly was gay, with her thought about him "preferring hippocras".

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ok, when i first her cersei would be a pov wasn't very happy about it. i was one of those who pulled a 180 on jaime after asos and i didn't want that to happen with cersei. thankfully didn;t. i dislike her even more. i cant believe how she believes that she's actually in control. i noticed this time how everyone seems to humor her. how qyburn offers a solution that she can claim to believe. how she thinks kevan will be a hand who will defer to her. how she thinks she was on the verge of "dealing" with stannis and renly.

the other thing that points to her downfall is her casual acceptance of ludicrous facts as soon as she makes them up, like stannis being in league with varys.

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I viewed Cersei's opening dream as both a "pre-summary" of Cersei's story in this book and a commentary on what sort of mental state she is in even this early in the game. Obviously she is somewhat deranged even now, and probably has been for quite some time. However we know that from this point on she gets even more frantic and further from the sort of cool calculating scheming of Tywin (also a commentary on Cersei's state in that she fully believes that she is better at scheming than Tywin) as this story progresses.

In one sense this chapter was something of a disappointment, because it does not take us any further with the question of what Shae was doing in Tywin's bed. Almost the only hint is that nobody except for Cersei seems to be at all surprised to see her there (it is not clear whether anyone other than Cersei realises that it is Tyrion's ex whore.). So we can probably conclude that Tywin did indeed use whores, which fits with the idea that he had no objection to them per se, just felt that it was important to keep them in their place.

I definitely agree with this. I see no indication, other than a little girl's romanticism of her father, that Tywin actually abstained. In fact if he did use whore's it would only add to his own disdain for them, and raise his level of ire when Tyrion parades them about so openly.

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If there has been any time in which I have felt inclined towards compassion for the character of Cersei it would be during the re-reading this chapter.

Fancy being woken from a nightmare to find a Kettleblack in your bedroom muttering something about your father being dead on a privy. It’s rough treatment for anybody let alone a Queen. I have been called (on too many occasions actually) to come to the place where rests a very recently deceased close family member and from my experience - this is what happens. They tell you to come and to hurry- with voices that brook no argument but they do not say the person is dead. Actually it may be true here in that sense as well - in that only a stupid Kettleblack would be stupid enough to do it that way.

The rest of the description of Cersei’s trip to the Tower is incredibly real. It is exactly as dreamlike and as disconcertingly precise (the fluttering of the moth) as GRRM so brilliantly conveys.

Apart from that - well I never really liked Cersei and though I feel sorry for her losing a father and for being so emotionally stunted about him - I still don’t like her. She cannot judge the emotional state of other people at all. She sees Jaime and immediately thinks/imagines he will comfort her. And because she hasn’t bothered to see how he’s reacting, his response shocks her. Actually I am amazed at the verisimilitude (sp) of this scene. Anger from the very recently bereaved is quite common. Some things are said at this time within families which sunder some relationships permanently (or for a long time) And we haven’t even got to the funeral yet. This happens so often (all the time) in this book - having two total antithetical ideas about one particular moment and finding they both work - that I am going to name the phenomenon “The GRRM Paradox†and get it copyrighted. But enough - I find thinking about Cersei for too long exacerbates my own delusions de grandeur

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There is the odd anomaly of Cersei ordering the Kettleblacks to take Shae's body to the dungeons via the secret tunnel before Jaime even returns from exploring it. Not sure what to make of that.

In my opinion it is only a question of secrecy. Cersei thought that, if they carried Shae's body through the yard somebody could see her body going out from the Tower of the Hand and then the rumour of her being with Tywin would spread fairly quickly across King's Landing and Westeros.

In ASoS, when Jaime frees Tyrion it is said that there were four gaolers guarding the cells

The corridor was so poorly lit that Tyrion almost stumbled on the turnkey, sprawled across the cold stone floor. He proded him with a toe. "Is he dead?"

"Asleep. The other three as well. The eunuch doese their wine with sweetsleep, but not enough to kill them"

But, in this chapter Boros Blount says to Cersei that there were only three of them:

"One of the gaolers has gone missing too. Rugen, his name was. Two other men we found asleep."

It may mean only that Jaime made a mistake or didn't remember well how many gaolers where supposed to be there, but I thought it worth mentioning thins discrepancy in the number of gaolers betweeeen both books.

The rest of the description of Cersei’s trip to the Tower is incredibly real.

I agree with you, Thynessa. Even the fact that, at first Cersei didn't recognize Tywin beacuse he looked smaller and older when dead is what happens in real life (at least, it has happened to me).

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this thread is clearly less popular than the dorne thread judging by commenst and views. last week the ironborn thread was less travelled. any opinions why?

That is an interesting question. I think it has to do with the symbolism in each of the chapters. One gets the sense that with the Oldtown and Dorne chapters that GRRM took a lot of time constructing the meaning of almost every sentence. I definitely don't see the care in Cersei's chapter (although there is a motive, but not a symbolic one) and the Ironborn chapter seems to be equally as straightforward in many respects. Even Cersei's dream is very cut and dry and doesn't have too many interpretations. A disapointment for I was looking forward to analyzing her dream with respect to the knowledge I have gained from these boards.

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I wouldn't necessarily blame GRRM for the lack of subtlety which I also miss. I believe it's intrinsic to Cersei's character - after all, she's as subtle as wildfire according to Jaime (who knows her best).

Despite all the drama and emotional trauma that she goes through, I cannot spare an ounce of sympathy for her. Since her childhood she's been acting like a fool, and I personally will breathe a sigh of relief after her PoV snuffs it.

On the first read, when her PoV turned out to be exactly what I was expecting, I quickly skimmed it and got back into the truly meaty characters. I did (a few) re-reads and took my time with Cersei, but as yet I am unable to summon the motivation to rehash it again.

Perhaps when I'm procrastinating with my boring homework and need something else to amuse myself with...

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There is the odd anomaly of Cersei ordering the Kettleblacks to take Shae's body to the dungeons via the secret tunnel before Jaime even returns from exploring it. Not sure what to make of that.

I think Cersei "knows" Tyrion killed Tywin, so she (correctly) assumes the secret passage will lead to the black cells.

[...] the fluttering of the moth [...]

Any ideas on what (or who) the moth symbolizes?

Other thoughts:

- We're introduced to one of Cersei's main flaws as a player of the game: she never ponders. As soon as she thinks a thought she acts upon it. (Such as, having Ser Boros kill the sleeping gaolers.)

- Cersei already suspects Tyrell involvement, even before the discovery of the golden hand coin in Rugen's room. Also, she looks down on the Tyrell family as former stewards.

- Cersei completely misreads Kevan's loyalty to her father as subservience, and thinks he'll readily do her bidding. How wrong she is.

- When Cersei tells Jaime she'll be Regent for Tommen, Jaime makes a crack that he's not sure who to pity more, Tommen or the Realm. I'm not surprised he thinks it - who wouldn't - but it's surprising he'll actually say it to her.

- The guardsman who discovered Tywin's body, Lum, was (IIRC) one of the two guardsmen Tyrion overheard before killing his father. Was he the one who thought Tyrion would die bravely or not?

- Qyburn was in the right place at the right time when Cersei was looking for a maester, any maester, to see to her father. Thus starts her trust in him, which leads eventually to whatever it is he's doing in the dungeons with Ser Gregor. Why was a disgraced ex-maester there?

- We're introduced to the word valonqar. We don't know what it means, but to Cersei it clearly means "Tyrion".

- This seems as good a place as any to ask, What is hippocras?

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My heart really isn't into this one. It's my least favorite PoV by a long shot. *sigh*

Well, here goes. Random thoughts:

Cersei's first chapter opens with a very cut-and-dry dream sequence. It underscores her superiority complex, her desire to rule, and her paranoia at the same time. Cersei blames this freaky dream on drinking too much the previous night. It makes me wonder how far back her drinking problem started when Joffrey died or when she was miserable in her marriage? She's obsessed with keeping her remaining children free from harm.

She is awakened in an inappropriate manner. When the queen is sleeping naked in bed, a maid should wake her up and get her clothed before men swarm around her bed. It's understandable though, that Jaime sent others to wake Cersei's big into being the dutiful white knight now, and his tunnel explorations are far more important than pleasing his sister with his presence.

I thought it was ironic that Cersei is revolted by the pride and ambition displayed by Tyrells. I mean, Lannisters are the epitome of pride and ambition. She scoffs at their origins as stewards. But of course Lannisters are supposed to be descended from a trickster, not the original royal blood that inhabited the Rock. Also, she takes this "lion of Lannister" thinking a bit too far. She needs a reality check: they're people, not lions. Then after being all frightened from a bad dream, Cersei claims to herself she's frightened of no one. More delusional thinking follows when she blames the hammering of her heart on too many steps.

The moth in the candle was a good metaphor for how Cersei wants to get to the light – to be the ruler, yet that desire is what traps her eventually. It's ironic that she wishes the moth to just fly into the flame and die, to get it over with.

It's funny how Cersei has room in her mind to criticize her father about Blount's restoration to his duty just moments after learning something really bad happened to Tywin. Her thoughts also shift really fast onto the fact that she now doesn't have to wed anyone ever again. Always thinking of what's in it for her, is our sweet Cersei.

It's silly that Jaime wants to find keys to the doors coming off the secret chamber. I mean, if nobody knows about it, then nobody's going to have keys. Better to take a smith's hammer and chisel and strike the chains off.

Cersei wanted Jaime to kiss her, but of course realized it needs to be later in private. However, she does not entertain the notion of going to him. She EXPECTS him to go to her. I suppose Cersei wants to think she's calling the shots in their relationship.

As the chapter ends, we see that she speaks before she thinks - if she thinks at all. She's going to make an awful ruler. Jaime, who knows her best, already knows this is going to be a disaster.

Edited to add:

Hippocras (couresy of the American Heritage online dictionary):

A cordial made from wine and flavored with spices, formerly used as a medicine.

Another definition:

HIPPOCRAS, an old medicinal drink or cordial, made of wine mixed with spices such as cinnamon, ginger and sugar and strained through woollen cloths. The early spelling usual in English was ipocras, or ypocras. The word is an adaptation of the Med. Lat. Vinum Hip pocraticum, or wine of Hippocrates, so called, not because it was supposed to be a receipt of the physician, but from an apothecarys name for a strainer or sieve, Hippocrates sleeve (see W. W. Skeat, Chaucer, note to the Merchants Tale).

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Love that this opens right after Tyrion's act of parricide.

So Jaime's being replaced by Kettleblack(s) in doing Cersei's dirty work for her (getting rid of Shae), just as he believes he's been replaced by a Kettleblack in her bed (thanks to Tyrion's words). Now, I'm wondering - do we REALLY think that she slept with the KG Kettleblack (I'm kind of thinking "Moon Boy" is a no!)? (Which makes her later actions with Osney yet more objectionable.) Is Kettleblack in the habit of wandering into her bedroom in the middle of the night, or this an Extreme Stress Situation because the Hand as been killed? Somebody mentioned the nakedness, but it seems to be not such a big deal in Westeros - Catelyn Stark received Maester Luwin completely naked back in A Game of Thrones. Hmmm!

Kevan is the only one who is genuinely mourning Tywin - he tells Jaime and Cersei to take their bickering outside (and the bickering itself is another great touch. We know that Jaime knows Tyrion killed Tywin and that he released Tyrin; Cersei doesn't and so she has no idea that Jaime's snapping at her out of guilt as much as anything else). Interestingly, the twins are already at odds with one another - a situation that will continue to get worse.

Also, Cersei is showing in her very first POV the fact that appearance is paramount for her - she wants Shae disposed of quietly so no one else knows her father was bedding her younger brother's whore. Although, to counter that, I think this is her only POV chapter where she's actually concerned about the effect of Jaime's hand on him (as opposed to how ugly it is) - she worries about his being unable to defend himself if the assassins are still waiting.

Err, what else? Well, the "naked in public dream where everyone is laughing at you" isn't so unusual, is it? I've had those kinds of dreams about examinations. Maybe the part about the dwarf...

It's silly that Jaime wants to find keys to the doors coming off the secret chamber. I mean, if nobody knows about it, then nobody's going to have keys. Better to take a smith's hammer and chisel and strike the chains off.

But we know, if Cersei doesn't, that Jaime knows exactly who killed Tywin and that he didn't escape using those doors or those keys; he's just sort of, I don't know, buying time or something. For me, the Cersei chapters are this kind of strange, black comedy almost where her POV is increasingly delusional and the reader knows it unlike either of her brothers, who are extremely clear-eyed about themselves and about other people (mostly: Jaime's blind spot is Cersei; Tyrion's is Shae). So I actually really liked her POVs although I too was afraid I might end up liking HER - no fear.

However, she does not entertain the notion of going to him. She EXPECTS him to go to her.

Waterdancer, nice point - it matches Jaime's observation along the same lines in ASoS - that he always has to ask... OTOH, the last time she went to him, he sent her packing, didn't he? So perhaps she just fears rejection.

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I remember Ned was appalled at Cat for being all nekkid in front of Luwin. But she replied that since Luwin attended all her childbirths, it was silly to worry about "false modesty".

I think being naked in front of your siblings and body servants is normal, but stripping someone naked (like Tytos' whore) in public is still something to be shamed by.

BTW, that's definitely true about Varys. I just would've expected Jaime to realize that Varys probably high-tailed it out of town. I'm actually surprised nobody in the room asked where on earth would one find keys to gates that nobody knew about.

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Dream scene nicely shows us Cersei,s paranoia and her irrational fear of Tyrion. It is nice touch that whe she hears that her father is dead, she first thinks that Tyrion did it and tries to convince herself he is safely closed in a cell - only to hear to her dismay that he escaped.

The scene of waking Cersei is scary and very evocative. Really good writing, IMHO.

Cersie categorically denies that Tywin ever used whores, and we never hear anyone say that he did. Istill think there is something decidedly fishy in the Tywin/Shae business.

I agree that Martin is rather heavy-handed in portraying Cersei character, but perhaps it was the only way to go in showing us a character which was supposed to be utterly unsympathetic.

Qyburn is indeed at hand. I wonder if he knew beforehand, what is going to happen? If so, it would be argument for a theory that he is in league with Varys.

Kevan evidently has very low oppinion of both Cersei and Jaime (we know that he is wrong in the latetr case)

We first hear word valonqar which is not explained until far later. And, yes, it isobvious that it means Tyrion for Cersei.

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I think there is some spectacular writing here. Note that in true Martin fashion, we don't get this following line:

A thousand thoughts fluttered through her head.

Instead, we get to see the thoughts. And they sure are confused! On the way up, she actually cries (though she writes it off to smoke), and almost faints (though she writes it off to the damn stairs), like a shocked and grieving daughter who finds her venerated father dead. But she never verbalises these emotions, but quickly switches to "I am a Lion of House Lannister" mode.

Then, there is a moment where she realised that she has everything. The realm and the rock! And that there will be more marriage treaties. Then she tries to puzzle out the death. And so on. All happens very quickly, with thoughts abandoned half-way and actions taken much to soon. Being in her head is exactly as I imagined.

Note that she isn't stupid, and her instincts aren't completely off. She immediately suspects House Tyrell to be behind Tywin's death. (And we laugh at her.) But is she far from the mark? No. She just guessed the wrong murder. House Tyrell actually was behind the death—of Joffrey! We may think she is paranoid, but she actually is almost right.

I had hoped to find some confirmation or refutation of the Varys Planted Shae theory, but not in this chapter, nor (I must admit) in the rest of the book.

We learn that Lord Tywin never touched another woman after Lady Joanna died. I have believed this all the way. But we only have Cersei's word for it, which isn't enough. We would need Kevan's word. However, I take this as weak evidence in favour of Varys Planted Shae.

On the other hand, Lum just used Lord Tywin's privy when he had to go. I take this as rather strong evidence against Varys Planted Shae, because Lord Tywin's isolation on the privy is a cornerstone of that theory. If the guards just entered and left Lord Tywin's personal quarters every time nature called them then they might have found him there earlier. It's not conclusive, and can be explained in a thousand ways, (and guards entering the quarters while Tywin entertains Shae is a problem for Shae Was Tywin's Whore, too) but still... For me, this is actually the strongest argument against Varys Planted Shae.

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We first hear word valonqar which is not explained until far later. And, yes, it isobvious that it means Tyrion for Cersei.

I think valonqar means "younger brother". And maybe I'm wrong, but wasn't Cersei the first of the twins? If so, that combined w/ GRRM's constant tendency to mess with us, leads me to believe that JAIME is the one that may well end up killing her. Just a thought, and certainly no proof yet, but I can't shake the suspicion.

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Happy Ent, I agree that Cersei's not stupid - she's foolish because she's convinced she's right and her interpretation is always correct whereas in fact, because she's so self-centered, I think she can't sometimes understand her own self-interest even when it's pointed out to her. (Jaime thinks later that she's like wildfire and Tywin was a glacier - slow and implacable.) Her reaction to other people is always to believe that they think like SHE does, even though she's not necessarily wrong about things. And of course, she is very concerned with having and wielding power.

But I think she is also very much Tywin's daughter in one regard - she seems to see people as SHE wants them to be and to be most concerned with a) the appearance of things; and B) with not being laughed at (she wants Shae disposed of - whatever the reason she was there - because she doesn't want anyone to THINK Tywin had a whore; she seems more upset by HOW her father died than that he's dead; and she reacts very angrily to Jaime's comment about "a Hand without a hand" not so much I think because he says that to her but because so many other people have overheard and she thinks it will be all over the castle by the next day...)

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The moth in the candle was a good metaphor for how Cersei wants to get to the light – to be the ruler, yet that desire is what traps her eventually. It's ironic that she wishes the moth to just fly into the flame and die, to get it over with.

To take this simile a little further, Cersei's annoyance with the moth to "get over with and die" is similar to Littlefinger's desire of Cersei. He mentions later on that he didn't think Cersei would self-destruct as quickly as she has, impling she is the moth and he is waiting for her to die.

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