AFFC Reread Project - Dorne

[A wilding]

On the milk of the poppy, it seemed to me that Doran was asking for it mostly to get the Maester out of the room so that he could have his private chat with Areo.

Areo thinks that there is another difference between him and Arys. On coming to Dorne, Areo switched his allegiance totally to Dorne, whereas Arys allegiance is still at least partly to Kings Landing.

[Ashara Stark]

Few things to add after all your comments

From the prologue we learned that there are red priests in Oldtown, and from this chapter that they are also in Dorne. From the previous books I took the impression that Thoros was the only red priest in Westeros, but it seems that R'hllor has well established followers in the Reach and Dorne. It may mean nothing but it could also mean that they are in contact with Melisandre and she plans to used them to support Stannis in the near future

There is also another parallel between Oldtown and Dorne: Doran Martell has been "hiding" in the Water Gardens for two years, Leyton Hightower has not abandoned the High Tower in the last decade.

I think that Areo knows Doran's plans regarding the Targaryens. That is why he thinks he will fight against Arys, who is loyal to the Baratheons/Lannisters on the Iron Throne.

By the way, Happy Ent you are doing an impressive job with the AFfC timeline! And A wilding, I love your analysis on how GRRM takes fairy tales and then changes their end

[Jaehaerys]

Princess Arianne's snakeskin sandals to me symbolized that she was politically and familiarly allied with the sand snakes.

[rpthomps]

About the blood oranges, doesn't Doran say "Enough" or "No more" or something when more oranges fall to the ground? If the oranges are the Lannisters, and he's really planning to "sweep the board clean" shouldn't his reaction be different? Or are you going for a double meaning, Lannisters and something (someones?) else?

It could mean that he is tired of watching them fall and wants to be responsible for their demise.

[Waterdancer]

I went and re-read the "enough" part with the oranges.

These oranges are very Dornish. Later on when Cersei is eating breakfast with Tommen, they dine on some just shipped in from Dorne.

Perhaps the oranges plopping down represent his family members who've died. Maybe the prince says it's enough meaning just that - he doesn't want more death visited on his loved ones and the people of Dorne in general. Doran Martell doesn't want Obara's confrontation, ie he's had enough of deadly confrontation and will do things more trickily.

That could be the key - Doran winced at the sound. A "Lannister" orange plopping onto the ground would be a more pleasing sound to him.

[LadySoftheart]

Huh! I just thought of the blood oranges as making me think of Dorne as, I don't know, the medieval Spain of Westeros or something I LOVED the description of the country that we get through this - very, very different from what I'd imagined (I'd thought it would be more like Venice, but we got Braavos for that) and I kept having these sort of mental images of either Andalusia or perhaps the Crusader Kingdoms of the eastern Mediterranean. So, err, I thought the oranges were just oranges - it's a bit of a stretch to go from orange to lion (and the Lannister colors are gold and crimson, not orange and dark red, which is the inside of a blood orange!) And of course, it's a sign that winter hasn't come to Dorne, but perhaps it will eventually.

I too find it interesting that the kinship networks are so very strong in Dorne - the other great houses certainly work for the benefit of their families, but it seems almost like Doran is the, well, anti-Walder Frey (who has lots of relatives and seems to dislike them all!)

I liked that we saw him from the POV of someone who has known and loved him for a long time and who sees how sad Doran is. And whoever upthread made the comparison to Tyrion - I liked that too. Doran is very clever and he's doing what he can but he gets no credit (and neither does Tyrion!)

[Waterdancer]

But of course of plopping oranges = dead Martells, then how should we interpret Hotah's dream? With sticky fingers, it's like having Martell blood on his hands....but that's wrong.....I'm out of ideas. *yawn*

[LadySoftheart]

But of course of plopping oranges = dead Martells, then how should we interpret Hotah's dream? With sticky fingers, it's like having Martell blood on his hands....but that's wrong.....I'm out of ideas. *yawn*

Hee! Well, there's always the thought that an orange might just be an orange Martin likes to describe the food in rather luscious detail, but I don't think it means anything when someone chooses a Dornish red versus an Arbor one or something every single time.

[IshtarNZ]

Quickly posting my summary - I just got back from a few days away! Then later I'll read the thread and reply to people...

The Captain of the Guards

New Characters Mentioned:

Areo Hotah, Maester Caleotte, the Sand Snakes – there are eight, but only 4 are named: Obara Sand, Nymeria Sand (“Lady Nymâ€), Tyene Sand, and Sarella Sand, “the children†– children of noble houses of Dorne (and others, orphans etc) who are wards of Prince Doran (?), Lord Yronwood, Ricasso, Lord Gargalen, Ser Daemon, the Fowler twins, Ser Manfrey Martell, Maester Myles, Trystane Martell,

Known Characters Mentioned:

Ellaria Sand, Doran Martell, Oberyn Martell, Arianne Martell, Lord Tywin, the Mountain, Princess Myrcella, Arys Oakheart, Elia Martell, Stannis,

Setting:

The Water Gardens in Dorne, the road to Sunspear, and Sunspear itself

This chapter confused me at first, because it took me a page or so to figure out who the characters were, so I missed some things of significance the first read through because I was trying to figure out who everyone was.

I was shocked at how bad Doran was, he was clearly in a lot of pain and far worse than had been let known. And I never thought he was weak, or cowardly – he clearly had the respect of his brother, if not his nieces, and from what we’ve seen of his brother I don’t think that was out of brotherly duty. So I always knew there was more to him than meets the eye. Also, he had a reputation in Westeros for being a talker and a thinker, so I was sure he had a plan of some sort.

I liked the glimpses of Norvos we got to see through Hotah’s eyes, another fascinating city which I hope to see more of.

I didn’t understand the mention of the Spear Tower as being “a hundred and a half feet tall†– does that mean 150 feet or 100.5 feet? I was assuming 150, but it’s a confusing usage.

I loved the little episode with Tyene, when Doran touched her and they immediately rushed to check he had not been scratched or anything. It showed the deadliness of Dorne, which was fascinating.

Sarella/Alleras – Lady Nym speaks of Obara thus: “Yes, she wants to set the torch to Oldtown. She hates that city as much as our little sister loves it.â€

Then there is the discussion between Doran and Hotah:

Hotah: “What of Sarella? She is a woman grown, almost twenty.â€

Doran: “Unless she returns to Dorne, there is naught I can do about Sarella save peay that she shows more sense than her sisters. Leave her to her…game.â€

I liked this first view of Dorne through Hotah’s eyes. You see the soft side of Doran, who just wants peace for the children to grow up in, but also has long-term plans of his own. You see the Sand Snakes from a slightly unsympathetic point of view. You see the beautiful Water Gardens, which I loved – its my favourite setting in Westeros, and I’d love to live there myself! So Dorne is my favourite part right now, followed closely by the Iron Islands. Of course, I’ll probably change my mind again, but that’s my prerogative as a woman!

[IshtarNZ]

Alright, my replies finally!

rpthomps:

I like your theory on the blood oranges, comparing them to House Lannister. Although I don't think Doran himself is aware of the comparison - I think its more a comparison GRRM is making.

"One of the sand snakes is the name of Arya’s wolf, Nymeria, whom we don’t meet."

Yes we do - this is Lady Nym, the second Sand Snake we meet, who "ambushes" Doran on his way from the Water Gardens to Sunspear.

"Pg 45 – What game is Sarella up to?"

This is the Alleras/Sarella game.

Archmaester Marwyn:

"Where are Water Gardens? Am I blind or they aren't on map?"

They're not on my map either, but my guess is that they are at the river mouth (can't remember the name of the river, but it comes out a little bit southwest of Sunspear on the coast, which fits with the "three leagues of coast road").

A wildling:

"In this chapter and the later Dornish ones the nobility of Dorne do come across almost like an extended family...Their common upbringing in the Water Gardens probably has something to do with this, it seems to be a custom that has been going on for some time."

Nice point, I had noticed that too. There seems to be far less rivalry between Dornish lords than others, so perhaps the Water Gardens has something to do with it. However, it could also be the harsh environment - there is a similar sort of feel with the Northmen too - in those harsh environments, you must be friends with your neighbours, or die.

Thynessa Reed:

Good summary of Hotah, I agree that he is completely devoted to Doran. I hope we learn more of Norvos in the future.

Waterdancer:

"Areo Hotah is portrayed with very little depth to his character, showing the simple thoughts of a simple man."

I completely disagree. Hotah is strong, dedicated, loyal, perceptive, protective, respectful, and intelligent. Not cunning, like Tyrion, or booksmart, like the Reader, but intelligent in his own way. He's a warrior, but that doesn't make him foolish. I actually wanted more of him in the Dorne chapters, because it was refreshing to see another character who is wholly good, like Brienne.

Bastard of Godsgrace:

"Relationship between Doran and Areo is cleraly very close, and I think Martin has slipped here, making Doran ask Areo if he has any brothers or sisters. Doran didn't know it after Areo was his bodyguard by more than 20 years?"

The impression I got here was more that Doran had forgotten, not that he had never known. He was musing about sibling rivalry and love, and just wanted someone to talk to.

Happy Ent:

Thanks so much for keeping track of timelines for us, I get totally lost in a book this big where everything is overlapping, its really useful!

Ashara Stark:

"From the prologue we learned that there are red priests in Oldtown, and from this chapter that they are also in Dorne."

I must have missed that bit - where are the red priests in Dorne?

Right, I'm now caught up on this thread! On to the other one!

[Happy Ent]

I fear we are making to much of the "everybody in Dorne is nice to each other" idea. House Martell simply won the Game of Thrones in Dorne (over House Yronwood, if I remember correctly). It's easy to be nice if you have all the power.

[Urri]

Hm, I do think the water gardens might help the Dornish to act "nicer" on each other, but probably not solely due to the next generation of lords & ladies playing together, but more because of having your son or daughter in the care of the Martells might considerably help you stay "nice".

[Waterdancer]

Oh Ishtar, you completely misunderstood my mention about a simple man! Hotah is quite cabable in his duties, of course. I just meant that he's not into deep philosophical thoughts, plotting political games, offering any council at all, no sense of humor, and no juicy sex life (despite those wanton Dornish women all around). He's not a fun PoV to read, but a fascinating one because we glimpse new lands and new characters.

[Ashara Stark]

About the blood oranges, doesn't Doran say "Enough" or "No more" or something when more oranges fall to the ground? If the oranges are the Lannisters, and he's really planning to "sweep the board clean" shouldn't his reaction be different? Or are you going for a double meaning, Lannisters and something (someones?) else?

I have been thinking about these blood oranges and my conclusion is that they represent Dorne's revenge against the Lannisters.

One of the symbols of Dorne is the sun, and the arms of House Martell have a red sun on orange as well as the spear; so blood oranges are a reference to the red sun, to the orange colour of House Martell, and the fact that they are blood oranges I think is a reference to their revenge for the deaths of Elia and her children.

Now, the oranges are ripe and I understand it as meaning that the time of revenge has already come, that Dorne doesn't have to wait for another 17 years. Moreover, when Doran says "Enough" I think he means "I have been waiting long enough, now it is time to act against the Lannisters". :cool:

ETA

"From the prologue we learned that there are red priests in Oldtown, and from this chapter that they are also in Dorne."

I must have missed that bit - where are the red priests in Dorne?

Ishtar, on page 31 UK edition, Obara says:

The septs are packed to bursting, and the red priests have lit their temple fires

[Bran's Muffin]

This and "Princess in the Tower" are my favorite chapters in AFFC. I didn't think I would love Dorne so much but I do. Geographically, it couldn't be further from the North but somehow I think those two are more like each other than any of rest of Westeros.

What I found interesting was that Doran knows what Sarella is up to. He lied when he said that he can’t do anything about her. The prince can always tell the Citadel what she’s really about. I’m sure they’d be so pissed off they’d be happy to confine her until a Dornish contingent comes to pick her up and carry her home. Doran doesn’t seem to approve of what Sarella is doing, but he chooses not to aid her or hinder her (as far as we can see).

The fact that he didn't send for her when he put the others in the tower made me think he has more faith her her abilities? I mean, the only reason he locks them up is so they won't ruin his plans and bring war to Dorne, I think he knows that Sarella won't do this, and thus there is no reason to lock her up.

I also like that he refers to it as "her game" (after a noticeable pause). Is Sarella playing the game of thrones, along with Doran? Though I don't think she is entirely in his confidence or anything like, it's possible that their aims are the same, as Oberyn and Doran's were.

It's interesting that Oberyn studied at the Citadel, perhaps that was what made Sarella want to study there as well.

[IshtarNZ]

Waterdancer:

"Oh Ishtar, you completely misunderstood my mention about a simple man! Hotah is quite cabable in his duties, of course. I just meant that he's not into deep philosophical thoughts, plotting political games, offering any council at all, no sense of humor, and no juicy sex life (despite those wanton Dornish women all around). He's not a fun PoV to read, but a fascinating one because we glimpse new lands and new characters."

Ok, I can agree with the "not fun", but I found him more enjoyable than Arianne and Oakheart, both of whom I found a bit shallow and silly. But I'm getting ahead of the re-read here!

Ashara:

Thanks for that, I did miss that passing reference to the red priests. So thankyou

[Reposado]

i think the part about the red priest is supposed to indicate a higher frequency of contact with the free cities, as well as exchange of ideas/goods.

we knew this was true about oldtown, and here we learn that it is also true in dorne, which makes sense. but i'm not sure if they are in the rest of the reach. it may be they only are in oldtown, or perhaps a few other locations.

[cteresa]

About the blood oranges, I think the key here is BLOOD. This is a feast for crows, blood got shed and shed, just like the oranges ripen and fall and leave a mess to clean up ( Areo thinks he should have cleaned the mess?). I think the blood oranges are there as an echo of how much blood got shed, how much can still be shed. And reading this chapter, I keep reading Doran as caring about it, which surely is part projection from my part. we see him sit and wait and do very little, when he does it is resolute and decisive, why do I think it so certain he wants to avoid war? Well, must be obvious but I needed to formulate that question, by seeing Doran resisting what is so obvious, what all his people want him to do. A weaker man would have gone along with it - and glop there would go more human blood oranges bursting ( ok, vile comparison, sorry).

Children are there from 5 to 10 years - it´s a pretty interesting setup and been working at least since when Elia was a child - but do we know if it had been working before Doran? Doran is 52, which made Oberyn 42 and Elia would have been 43. Still so young, Elia would have been so young when she was killed, and Doran is just 52, young for such disabilitating gout - I think GRRM in all the series has people just living faster, not a different rate for a year, but just going by medieval times. Oberyn was 42, and Obara is nearly 30, Nymeria is 25, which makes Oberyn 17 when Nymeria was born, and maybe 13 or 14 or 15 when Obara was born. Sarella is almost 20.

A possible editing problem Areo remembers somebody commenting on Obara, " she is..." the prince told his daughter. If it was Oberyn it would make no sense, must have been Doran to Arianne?

Pretty chilling and character revealing, Doran, who did not want Oberyn to go, sitting with the letter unread on his lap till night, when even the maester must have feared what it contained.

The wintercake of Norvos sounds delicious! Ginger, pinenuts and cherry - sounds to me like some New Year delicacy, maybe not cheap or usual ingredients, but like some Christmas cake even the poor have. And Areo´s family was poor. Pine nuts are typically expensive always ( love those)

A small detail, of the children splashing in the pool a few are fighting out and there is a mention of a "tow headed boy on his brother´s shoulders". That word brother make me stop and read, it´s not a remote PoV, as if the identity of that child (children) is important enough that even the captain of the guards knows it. It´s not as impersonal as the rest of the children, but not quite as personal as the children which ger named later. Though I suppose Areo would know, and knows the children. But if anybody has any theories for any children ( below 10 remember, Robert´s Rebellion would have been 16years ago) on the water gardens, i wanna know.

Daemon Sand sent the birds to Nymeria about Oberyn´s death. Interesting ( boG your namesake seems to be involved with all sorts of Dornish ladies!)

The Sand Snake´s "little sister" loves Oldtown Sarella again, oh this was so obvious! took me a while to get there.

Areo thinks a bit of Arianne´s body being curvy and she is his "little princess". Ahem any further mentions of anything? It could have been more point in common with Arys.

[A wilding]

Areo thinks a bit of Arianne´s body being curvy and she is his "little princess". Ahem any further mentions of anything? It could have been more point in common with Arys.

Perhaps, but he will have known her well ever since she was a baby and watched her grow up, which in most cultures makes for a bit of a taboo. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar, I would say he probably regards her as a daughter.

[Jesatria]

Perhaps, but he will have known her well ever since she was a baby and watched her grow up, which in most cultures makes for a bit of a taboo. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar, I would say he probably regards her as a daughter.

Yes, I would agree that they seem to have a father/daughter sort of relationship. Areo doesn't have any kids of his own, after all.