AFFC Reread Project - Dorne

[Ran]

I suppose she may exaggerate just how mind-blowing the sex is, but she does say it was pleasurable enough -- Arys was an unimaginative lover, more eager than skilled, and so didn't quite meet her standards ... but hey, if you like ice cream, especially chocolate ice cream, but only get vanilla ... well, hell, it's still ice cream.

[Ashara Stark]

Arys says he has been 10 years in the KG, so it seems he didn’t join it just at the end of Robert’s Rebellion but about eight years after.

Theres is a lot of information about the Kingsguard in this chapter, Terrence Toyne, Lucamore Strong, one Oakheart who died in Dorne with the Young Dragon, … I suppose the Toyne brothers mentioned by Stannis as traitors, were Terrence Toyne’s brothers. Considering that Symon Toyne lived about a century after Terrence Toyne it seems that the case with the Toynes is parallel to the Blackfyres: the hostilities of both Houses against the Targaryens was initiated by Aegon IV, and ended up during Aerys II’s reign.

Arys also confirms that Aegon IV spread the rumour about Daeron II being the Dragonknight’s son because he wanted Daemon Blackfyre to inherit the Iron Throne.

I think it is the first time we hear about the Golden Company, founded by Bittersteel and formed by exiles and sons from exiles who want to go back to Westeros. I think they have broken their contract with Myr once they heard about Dany and her dragons, and that they are going east to meet her. I haven’t made my mind up on whether to pledge fealty to her or to fight against her in the last Blackfyre Rebellion.

The idea of history repeating itself that already appeared in the Asha chapter it is stated here again by Arianne.

About the relationship between Arianne and Doran and the lack of confidence between them I think it is not mainly Arianne’s fault but Doran's. From the letter she saw it seems that Doran told all his plans to Quentyn but didn’t say a word to Arianne. Why? Why didn’t he trust her as much as he trusted Quentyn? I could understand that he didn’t say anything to any of them, but not that he told everything to Quentyn and nothing to Arianne.

[Happy Ent]

From the letter she saw it seems that Doran told all his plans to Quentyn but didn’t say a word to Arianne. Why? Why didn’t he trust her as much as he trusted Quentyn?

The reason Doran gives later is that Arianne gossips; she has too many friends, too many people she trusts. Quentyn doesn't.

We can buy that reason or not, but it's clearly necessary for the plot.

[Ashara Stark]

Thanks, Happy Ent, I had forgotten that was the reason Doran gave her.

[oba]

Nothing much really to add here. Upon re-read I still find myself liking Arianne's character a great deal, and I always like chapters in which we get tidbits of Westerosi history. I also found myself feeling bad for Arys. We don't know the full story behind his joining the Kingsguard, but he's gone from Joffrey's court to a nest of political intrigue, and he's clearly not a political animal.

[rpthomps]

I am rereading Game of Thrones and Jon describes Myrcella as "insipid". She seems to be anything but now as the Dornish Snakes fight to use her.

[rpthomps]

Cast of characters in this chapter:

Drey - full name is Audrey Dalt, a knight and heir to Lemonwood

Sylva Santagar - known as spotted Sylva for her freckles, heir to spottswood

Garin - named after Prince Garin the Great, the wonder of Rhoyne, Arianne's milk brother

Darkstar - Ser Gerold Dayne, knight of Starfall, has purple eyes (like the Targaryens?)

Quentyn - hints of his voyage here across the sea and how Arianne learned of his journey

[rpthomps]

As I am also rereading Game of Thrones I noticed that Ser Aron Santagar was(is) the King's master of arms. I wonder his relation to Spotted Sylva?

[Ran]

I'd guess he was an uncle, myself.

[Jesatria]

One of the things I really enjoyed in this chapter was Arianne's little flashback in the beginning. It's interesting to see the relationships between the various Martells. Makes me wish Oberyn was still alive-I'd like to hear some of his stories! And it seems like Arianne was almost a 9th Sand Snake of sorts.

We see Oberyn teaching Tyene about poisons in the flashback. Also, we see Sarella asking all sorts of questions about the people who inhabited the ruins. Another bit of evidence for Alleras=Sarella.

I found it interesting but also slightly disturbing that Arianne seems to have had a crush of sorts on her uncle.

[Happy Ent]

Doran sent Quentyn to foster with house Yronwood, and it sounds as if that is amends for some slight. Am I supposed to understand what's behind this?

In the nightly sky, the "moon crowns the Moonmaid", I think. Is that a constellation or another heavenly body? "Moonmaid" would be a good name for a small object orbiting the moon, which could be seen above or below the moon at certain times.

Arboreal perspective: When the hardships of the desert are over, a tree announces life and water and joy. Very good. (I forget the tree's name.) And Garin dismounts next to a Willow, before all hell breaks loose. I never really trusted Willows. Shifty fellows. That terrible movie was aptly named.

Speaking of Garin and shifty fellows... I think it's Garin. When the mounted party of seven arrives at the Greenblood, he dismounts and calls out, ostensibly to wake up the orphans. That's the perfect thing to do when you want to set everybody up to be ambushed without loss of life. Had the group continued on horse, closer to the ship, the crossbowmen would have had a much harder time. Imagine Oakheart and the Darkstar continuing up the plank before the men-at-arms can loose more than a bolt or two. Mayhem would be certain. Instead, Garin gets everybody off their horses, at the perfect distance to the crossbowmen.

So I propose: someone = Garin. Does anybody remember what Garin's punishment will be?

[A wilding]

Doran sent Quentyn to foster with house Yronwood, and it sounds as if that is amends for some slight. Am I supposed to understand what's behind this?

Old lord Yronwood died in a duel with Oberyn, who was rumoured to have poisoned his weapon. The timing is right for Doran to have given Quentyn to squire for Lord Yronwood's successor to smooth this incident over. It would also explain a slight rift between Quentyn & Yronwood and the Sand Snakes & Arianne.

[Ran]

Am I supposed to understand what's behind this?

Well, Oberyn did get his name after the mysterious death-by-infected-wound of Lord Yronwood. I doubt that really helped Martell-Yronwood relations, so perhaps sending Lord Yronwood a ward down the line was one attempt Doran made to repair it.

Garin's punishment was two years exile in Tyrosh, and his kin gave up hostages and money.

I think it's Drey, myself. He loved Arianne and wanted to marry her, but really wasn't in position to do so, being only his brother's heir (and his brother not an old man, and having similar interests). Drey is also the one who responds with some alacrity to disarm, and urges the others to do so. His expectation would be a reward from Doran, in this case ... Arianne. The Prince of Dorne doesn't play that game, it seems.

[Happy Ent]

Ran, AW, thanks for the Oberyn story. That must be it.

I noted Drey's willingness to surrender as well, and his motive would fit. What was his punishment again?

[Grant Dempsey]

I noted Drey's willingness to surrender as well, and his motive would fit. What was his punishment again?

To serve Mellario in Norvos for three years.

[Bastard of Godsgrace]

This chapter has perhaps the most blatant Martin's mistake - Arianne says that the lion is dead and after that she hears about Tywin's death and is astonished. Some suggested that "the lion" means Joffrey, but it doesn't hold water, IMHO. The lion she mentions cleraly was someone who ruled the kingdom, and Joffrey was underage.

I must admit that I still don't like Arianne at all. She uses Arys coldly, and she is so self-obsessed that it doesn't even occur to her that Quentyn's mission and Golden Company defection may not have anything in common with her. She does look like a Cersei in the making, at least to some extent. Perhaps Doran really should disiherit her, after all.

Darkstar is an enigma. he clearly is somebody's plant. Littlefinger seems the most likely candidate, since it is in his interest to foment chaos on which he - by his admission - thrives. Varys seems less likely, since he probably wouldn't want Dorne to go to war against lannister at his moment, but OTOH Varys certainly wouldn't have anything against eliminating Myrcella, so who knows?

The traitor must be Drey or gain, by simple elimination. I doubt if Sylva dreamed about marrying lord Estermont , and darksrat and Arys are clearly out.

Myrcella is really likeable character. Unfortunately she is not likely to survive long. . We also witness first in the series of facial mutilations which seem to be Martin's obsession in this book. I could live with one, but Myrcella, Brienne and Loras do look like overdoing it, IMHO.

[Happy Ent]

Some suggested that "the lion" means Joffrey, but it doesn't hold water, IMHO.

We have a gazillion threads on that already, and I don't think we will break new ground here, but anyway, just for re-hashing old arguments:

Neither does "lion=Tywin" make sense. "Tywin is dead. Now we must see which cub the lioness prefers." Huh? Tommen is King when Tywin dies. The line of succession doesn't change because Tywin dies, there is no "cub to prefer" because no king has died. The only way this would make sense is to assume that Cersei (Tommen's regent) should be assumed to dethrone King Tommen—and do it now, because her former support of Tommen was based on her fear of Tywin. That's a pretty long-winded argument. The lioness expressed her preference among her cubs when Joffrey died. The deck hasn't been reshuffled, the line of succession isn't contended by anybody after Tywin's death. Only after Joffrey's.

So from that perspective it makes more sense to say "Joffrey is dead. Who is to follow him? Well, the line of succession is unclear. By imperial law, the throne goes to Tommen, by Dornish, to Myrcella. The decision is the Queen's."

[Lupigis]

BoG, your post on this chapter reflects my opinion almost perfectly.

I must admit that I still don't like Arianne at all. She uses Arys coldly, and she is so self-obsessed that it doesn't even occur to her that Quentyn's mission and Golden Company defection may not have anything in common with her. She does look like a Cersei in the making, at least to some extent. Perhaps Doran really should disiherit her, after all.

I said in a previous post that Arianne is Cersei without the cruelty. I'd like to add to this that she also has a more empathy and we learn later that she also has the capacity for remorse. Thus, she may well develop into a more likeable character later in the series.

Darkstar is an enigma. he clearly is somebody's plant.

Agreed. Rather surprisingly, no one has posted a link yet to the funniest book related thread on the new board, the magnificent Darkstar hate thread. I didn't really find him that annoying on my first read, but I must admit to having problems taking him seriously now.

The traitor must be Drey or gain, by simple elimination. I doubt if Sylva dreamed about marrying lord Estermont , and darksrat and Arys are clearly out.

It's interesting to note that both the likely candidates for being the traitor are sent overseas, where a person loyal to Doran can continue to be a useful agent for him.

[Happy Ent]

It's interesting to note that both the likely candidates for being the traitor are sent overseas, where a person loyal to Doran can continue to be a useful agent for him.

Yes. Do we have any speculation about Mrs. Martell? Why did she leave for Norvos? When? I think we are led to believe that she and Doran separated, but it may all be part of some plan. Maybe Mellario is really Aegon Targaryen?

[Thynessa Reed]

I get the impression that Mrs Martell is on an extended visit to her Mum ie: she's estranged from Doran, and this chapter gives me the idea that the rot may have started to set into her marriage at the time Quentyn was fostered.