AFFC Reread Project - Jaime

[FTWard]

Standing vigil for someone who's dead is not the same thing as standing vigil before being knighted. The latter means spending the night in the sept in contemplation, a sort of a purification rite before becoming a knight.

That seems likely. On re re read I do not think the reference is for standing vigil of a corpse. Thanks again.

[LannisterStark]

I don't find any evidence that Vary's planted Shae in Tywin's room. It seems plausible that Tywin slept with Shae in order to hurt Tyrion. We have seen from earlier books that Tywin goes out of his way to humiliate his son, Tyrion. So, sleeping with Shae was simply apart of Tywin's typical behavior.

As for Jaime, I think he is definitely in the midst of an identity crisis. Losing his sword hand has transformed Jaime into a cripple. Whereas he was very arrogant in the beginning (sitting on the Iron Throne in AGOT), Jaime is now filled with self-doubt. I think that Jaime's new self-doubt is affecting the way Cersei views Jaime. I think that Cersei is less attracted to this new Jaime.

[Horza]

I don't find any evidence that Vary's planted Shae in Tywin's room. It seems plausible that Tywin slept with Shae in order to hurt Tyrion. We have seen from earlier books that Tywin goes out of his way to humiliate his son, Tyrion. So, sleeping with Shae was simply apart of Tywin's typical behavior.

How does it hurt Tyrion if he has no idea about it?

If Tywin was flaunting it in front of Tyrion's nose then that would make sense, but he actively tries to get Tyrion out of whoring and makes his disdain for whoring plain many times.

He may be sleeping with her out of some kind of reverse-Oedipal thing and he seems to have issues with whores in general so it's possible she wasn't planted... but that still doesn't explain why Varys so readily tells Tyrion where his father's quarters are... quarters complete with a drowsy Shae, a dwarf-accessible crossbow and a diahrreic/constipated Tywin Lannister.

[LannisterStark]

How does it hurt Tyrion if he has no idea about it?

If Tywin was flaunting it in front of Tyrion's nose then that would make sense, but he actively tries to get Tyrion out of whoring and makes his disdain for whoring plain many times.

He may be sleeping with her out of some kind of reverse-Oedipal thing and he seems to have issues with whores in general so it's possible she wasn't planted... but that still doesn't explain why Varys so readily tells Tyrion where his father's quarters are... quarters complete with a drowsy Shae, a dwarf-accessible crossbow and a diahrreic/constipated Tywin Lannister.

I suspect that Tywin achieved a "sexual charge" by sleeping with Shae. The knowledge that Shae was with his son Tyrion gave Tywin a "jolt of sexual energy". Simply put, humiliating Tyroin gives Tywin sexual pleasure. Also, it is important to note that GRRM suggests a deep psychological connection between father and son by giving them similar names. The name "Tywin" is very similar to the name "Tyrion". It could be said that "Tyrion" is a variation of "Tywin". GRRM is hinting at a deep pathological connection between the two men.

[CatrionaX]

I seem to be on my own with this as I can't see it mentioned anywhere else but I thought that many of the changes in Jaime's character come about as he falls / starts to fall in love with Brienne.

Previously, he has been forcibly kept away from Cersei for perhaps the longest period in his life. He longs for her and the thought of her keeps him going during his captivity in Riverrun. However, he then embarks on a long journey with Brienne, with whom he is forced to spend time (without Cersei's influence) and Brienne shows him a different model of womanhood, one that he finds very attractive. Brienne is honest, loyal, trustworthy and honourable - qualities Cersei does not possess.

To echo some of the comments on this board, Brienne is the kind of knight? man? person that Jaime wants and wanted to be. She is good and true and mostly admirable, despite some stubbornly stupid moments. So Jaime returns to KL, has a passionate reunion with Cersei but quickly discovers her to be someone he doesn't really like, admire or respect - the way he grudgingly does with Brienne. As his ardour for Cersei dims, she senses it and the rift between them grows, especially given her hatred of the physically disabled.

Cersei’s sexual adventures feed into this as well. I found Jaime's sexual inexperience really surprising and interesting – he’s virtually a virgin apart from sleeping with his sister! Lots of women are very interested in him e.g. Pia, yet he keeps himself for Cersei, who sadly doesn’t do the same: Lancel, Osmund Kettleblack, although I doubt she slept with Moon Boy! In contrast, Brienne is actually known as the Maid of Tarth, so clearly she doesn’t sleep around much! To me, Jaime’s repetition of the “Lancel, Osmund Kettleblack, Moon Boy” refrain is another way of hinting how he is moving from loving Cersei to loving Brienne.

I’m also reminded of the Lord of the Rings line about Strider – he seems foul but is fair. Brienne looks foul but has a fair (beautiful) personality while Cersei looks fair but has a more than foul personality. I think Brienne shows Jaime which is more important.

I did think of other things but they’ve gone now (2 children under 2! (I cry every time something bad happens to a child in the novels so I’ve usually got a wet face!)) Can’t wait to read what you all think of these thoughts.

[CatrionaX]

Jaime is in love with Brienne

I seem to be on my own with this as I can't see it mentioned anywhere else but I thought that many of the changes in Jaime's character come about as he falls / starts to fall in love with Brienne.

Previously, he has been forcibly kept away from Cersei for perhaps the longest period in his life. He longs for her and the thought of her keeps him going during his captivity in Riverrun. However, he then embarks on a long journey with Brienne, with whom he is forced to spend time (without Cersei's influence) and Brienne shows him a different model of womanhood, one that he finds very attractive. Brienne is honest, loyal, trustworthy and honourable - qualities Cersei does not possess.

To echo some of the comments on this board, Brienne is the kind of knight? man? person that Jaime wants and wanted to be. She is good and true and mostly admirable, despite some stubbornly stupid moments. So Jaime returns to KL, has a passionate reunion with Cersei but quickly discovers her to be someone he doesn't really like, admire or respect - the way he grudgingly does with Brienne. As his ardour for Cersei dims, she senses it and the rift between them grows, especially given her hatred of the physically disabled.

Cersei’s sexual adventures feed into this as well. I found Jaime's sexual inexperience really surprising and interesting – he’s virtually a virgin apart from sleeping with his sister! Lots of women are very interested in him e.g. Pia, yet he keeps himself for Cersei, who sadly doesn’t do the same: Lancel, Osmund Kettleblack, although I doubt she slept with Moon Boy! In contrast, Brienne is actually known as the Maid of Tarth, so clearly she doesn’t sleep around much! To me, Jaime’s repetition of the “Lancel, Osmund Kettleblack, Moon Boy” refrain is another way of hinting how he is moving from loving Cersei to loving Brienne.

I’m also reminded of the Lord of the Rings line about Strider – he seems foul but is fair. Brienne looks foul but has a fair (beautiful) personality while Cersei looks fair but has a more than foul personality. I think Brienne shows Jaime which is more important.

I did think of other things but they’ve gone now (2 children under 2! (I cry every time something bad happens to a child in the novels so I’ve usually got a wet face!)) Can’t wait to read what you all think of these thoughts.

[LannisterStark]

Jaime is in love with Brienne

I seem to be on my own with this as I can't see it mentioned anywhere else but I thought that many of the changes in Jaime's character come about as he falls / starts to fall in love with Brienne.

Previously, he has been forcibly kept away from Cersei for perhaps the longest period in his life. He longs for her and the thought of her keeps him going during his captivity in Riverrun. However, he then embarks on a long journey with Brienne, with whom he is forced to spend time (without Cersei's influence) and Brienne shows him a different model of womanhood, one that he finds very attractive. Brienne is honest, loyal, trustworthy and honourable - qualities Cersei does not possess.

To echo some of the comments on this board, Brienne is the kind of knight? man? person that Jaime wants and wanted to be. She is good and true and mostly admirable, despite some stubbornly stupid moments. So Jaime returns to KL, has a passionate reunion with Cersei but quickly discovers her to be someone he doesn't really like, admire or respect - the way he grudgingly does with Brienne. As his ardour for Cersei dims, she senses it and the rift between them grows, especially given her hatred of the physically disabled.

Cersei’s sexual adventures feed into this as well. I found Jaime's sexual inexperience really surprising and interesting – he’s virtually a virgin apart from sleeping with his sister! Lots of women are very interested in him e.g. Pia, yet he keeps himself for Cersei, who sadly doesn’t do the same: Lancel, Osmund Kettleblack, although I doubt she slept with Moon Boy! In contrast, Brienne is actually known as the Maid of Tarth, so clearly she doesn’t sleep around much! To me, Jaime’s repetition of the “Lancel, Osmund Kettleblack, Moon Boy” refrain is another way of hinting how he is moving from loving Cersei to loving Brienne.

I’m also reminded of the Lord of the Rings line about Strider – he seems foul but is fair. Brienne looks foul but has a fair (beautiful) personality while Cersei looks fair but has a more than foul personality. I think Brienne shows Jaime which is more important.

I did think of other things but they’ve gone now (2 children under 2! (I cry every time something bad happens to a child in the novels so I’ve usually got a wet face!)) Can’t wait to read what you all think of these thoughts.

I agree with you that Jaimee is falling in love with Brienne. I agree with you that Jaimee is falling out of love with Cersei. I also think that Jaimee's loss of his hand is changing his character. Jaimee is becoming more vulnerable and more human. I think he wants to end the incest.

[CatrionaX]

Jaime will kill Cersei

Someone somewhere has pointed out that Cersei is the older twin (altho I haven't bothered to double-check this fact) so this means she has 2 little brothers or valonqars. I've suspected for a while now that it's too obvious for Tyrion to kill Cersei and becoming more likely that Jaime (a man scorned) will kill her. I just couldn't work out how given that the other two prophecies about Cersei had come true. However, this has explained it all so thank you very much!

[Lundy]

That is why I think he's retreated from all but his most basic responsibilities in AFfC. He's working though, even if he doesn't know it, his own system of values and ethics. The last chapter is when this subconscious re-positioning comes to the fore. Having taken refuge in blind if skilled obedience to his duties he is now ready to emerge once again into the limelight and make his own decisions about *what* to do, not merely how to do it.

As Joanna stated to him the more important question is "Who are you?"

I'm enjoying the ride as Jaime figures that one out.

[evanesco75]

I love the idea of Jaime killing Cersei. Yes, she 'came into the world first', so she's older by a few seconds.

Perhaps the mere decision of burning her letter is enough to 'kill' her, in any case. There's no one left who would stick their neck out for Cersei, and I'm guessing Qyburn will abandon her soon. I remember chuckling when she was told that Waters had fled with the dromonds; bitch, you so blind!

I think it would be poetic if, after all the scornful 'fools' Jaime's received from Cersei, he outsmarts/finishes her in the end.

I have to say I don't really like the idea of Jaime falling for Brienne though. I'm sure it could happen, but I'd rather it didn't.

Why can't a man and woman have a deep, mutually affectionate connection without it becoming romantic? Sorry, this is a pet peeve of mine!

[FatCatOberyn]

I don't like the idea of Cersei dying at all. Her survival would break another prophecy, and the series seems somewhat "chained" by these prophecies. Either way, I don't think that Jaime is about to walk out on her. He will go and fight for her, because, despite his newly-born hatred of her, he has loved her for most of his life, and I doubt he would abandon her now.

[Night's Blade]

I don't believe the prophecy explicitly stated that Cersei was going to be killed by her Valonqar, it only stated that the Valonqar would bring her down.

[A wilding]

I don't believe the prophecy explicitly stated that Cersei was going to be killed by her Valonqar, it only stated that the Valonqar would bring her down.

"And when your tears have drowned you, the valonqar shall wrap his hands about your pale white throat and choke the life from you."