A wilding Posted January 29, 2006 Share Posted January 29, 2006 Also, Taena Merryweather has joined Cersei's entourage in this chapter. She is telling both Cersei and Margaery that she is spying for them on the other queen. She is also helping to set Cersei against the Tyrells. Some more analysis then. Taena is: (a) Just out for herself, and willing to jump either way depending on which queen comes out on top. ( Truly working for Margaery. ( c) Working for Varys. (d) Working for someone else. However we quickly learn that Taena has told Cersei that the QoT keeps a chest of old House Gardener coins. When combined with the fact that Varys planted a House Gardener coin in the dungeons, this is clearly intended to make Cersei think that the Tyrells were behind Tyrion's escape (though it is not made clear whether Cersei does in fact draw this conclusion). Given that hardly anyone knows of Varys planting the coin, this strongly implies option ( c) above. Unfortunately it is not quite conclusive. Other possibilities: - Senelle knew about the coin in the dungeon and might have told Margaery, who then decided to play along with the idea. - It may be fairly well known that the QoT has this chest of coins. Or perhaps some other agent of Varys fed the story to Taena. - Qyburn could have told someone else about the coin, or even have planted it himself. (But why?) On the whole though, I still go for option ( c). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Ent Posted January 29, 2006 Share Posted January 29, 2006 In the Jaime chapter, we add a new facet to Ser Loras: he does not read. I argued in an earlier thread that he is illiterate, but have to admit that the evidence for that is not conclusive. But what is clear is that the Knight of Flowers does not read well. Maybe he could decipher "Criston Cole" if Jaime held a Valyrian dagger to his throat, but otherwise he cannot be bothered. He looks at the arms and shrugs. Not only do his lips not move when reading; he doesn't even try. Renly had better books—with pictures in them. Naughty ones, even. And his gay lover reassured him that it's no big deal: "Books are for maesters." Such a nice man, Renly. Well, I'm sure he didn't chose Loras for his intellectual qualities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rpthomps Posted January 30, 2006 Share Posted January 30, 2006 From Jaime's chapter: The story about Lucamore the Lusty seems to be in duspute... Loras says that he had 30 children but Arianne claims he had 16. Criston Cole, the Kingmaker is mentioned again. Tywin was 21 when he was made Hand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Vlad Posted January 30, 2006 Share Posted January 30, 2006 A wildling, "Jousting was three quarters horsemanship". A possible hint there as to the identity of the Knight of the Laughing Tree? Somewhat of a tangent given the thread, but I had the same thought when I read Jaime's chapter. Lyanna was supposed to be a skilled rider, yes? Also, re: Jaime and his silence about Chelsted, it may be that he was following Hightower's advice, to obey Aerys and not judge him. While no indication is given directly in the text, Jaime's attitude toward honour and honesty was likely further warped by the situation he was placed in with Aerys's madness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bastard of Godsgrace Posted January 30, 2006 Share Posted January 30, 2006 Kevan has apparently rather low opinion about Jaime. We know he misjudges him, but how Kevan is supposed to know it? And jaime doesn't haver any credible line of defense. I no longer sleep with my sister just isn't going to do. Jaime is still agonizing about Tyrion words. II agree that their repetition is effective way of showing how big impact they made on him. It is way better than "my lady, um, ser" or "she certainly isn't a maiden anymore" which plague us in bBienne chapters. Someone (SKD, I think) theorized on this board that dany was conceided this night after burning chelsted. It does seem quite likely. Perhaps it takes more than one fire to create a dragon. Bronn sure has a lot of audacity. The whole business with naming of Lollys' bastard is quite funny. Cersei of course overreacts as usual. I thought that she will at least succeed with killing Bronn who seemed quite easy target. Nope. She is apparently as unlucky, as she is incompetent. We see another example of Cersei driving Jaime away. She does seem quite determined to do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Ent Posted January 30, 2006 Share Posted January 30, 2006 Timeline. Last we saw the King's Landing plot was the Tommy/Marge wedding, which I put at 8 March. Since then, the power of Highgarden has departed, and Kevan is on his way as well. I assume these groups left right after the wedding (QoT seems to have wanted to). Lollys had her baby. My shaky timeline for SoS puts Tyrion's birth in early to middle of March, extrapolating from her rape. So let me propose this, where King's Landing has been slowly emptying over a period of 10 days or so: 8 Mar Cersei III Tommy weds Marge 15 Mar Tyrion Waters born 18 Mar Jaime II Kevan departs King's Landing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Ent Posted January 30, 2006 Share Posted January 30, 2006 Why is Pycelle so upset about the Tyrion Waters thing? The other three (Cersei, Tommen, Taena) are having a good laugh when Jaime appears. The three of them were laughing at Grand Maester Pycelle. [...] Pycelle looked desperately uncomfortable.[...] "Lady Stokeworth insists that the name was not her doing." Grand Maester Pycelle put in. Perspiration dotted his wrinkled forehead. [...] The old man gave a tremulous nod, mopping at his brow with the slevve of his robe. I don't get it. Everybody, including Jaime, laughs about his. What is Pycelle so nervous about? Do I smell yet another conspiracy hinted at. Maybe Tyrion Waters is in truth... (wait for it) baby Aegon! And Pycelle is secretely working for the Targs and want to keep him hidden and... Ok, I admit. I have nothing. Still strange. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lupigis Posted January 30, 2006 Share Posted January 30, 2006 Why is Pycelle so upset about the Tyrion Waters thing? The other three (Cersei, Tommen, Taena) are having a good laugh when Jaime appears. I don't get it. Everybody, including Jaime, laughs about his. What is Pycelle so nervous about? A vague idea: Pycelle is used to Tywin Lannister. Tywin would no doubt have been extremely angry at Bronn's insolence. Thus, Pycelle expects a similar level of anger from Cersei? It's not much, but all I can think of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Vlad Posted January 31, 2006 Share Posted January 31, 2006 Why is Pycelle so upset about the Tyrion Waters thing? The other three (Cersei, Tommen, Taena) are having a good laugh when Jaime appears. I don't get it. Everybody, including Jaime, laughs about his. What is Pycelle so nervous about? Do I smell yet another conspiracy hinted at. Maybe Tyrion Waters is in truth... (wait for it) baby Aegon! And Pycelle is secretely working for the Targs and want to keep him hidden and... Ok, I admit. I have nothing. Still strange. I assume that Pycelle expected Cersei to completely snap, given her established behaviour on Tyrion. Pycelle was Cersei's catspaw at one point, or at least favoured her over Tyrion during ACoK, so it may be that he feared Cersei would somehow feel an urge to retaliate against Stokeworth. Or maybe he's just getting senile. Having his beard shaved off by a hairy and rather angry savage and being thrown into the black cells for a few days is not healthy for a man his age. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HimOfTwoFaces Posted February 2, 2006 Share Posted February 2, 2006 Why is Pycelle so upset about the Tyrion Waters thing? The other three (Cersei, Tommen, Taena) are having a good laugh when Jaime appears. I don't get it. Everybody, including Jaime, laughs about his. What is Pycelle so nervous about? Maybe it's not Tyrion Waters he's nervous about? Taena and Cersei began mocking Jaime the moment he walked through the door. Maybe Pycelle was their previous target, and Tommen and the women were laughing at some jape one of them directed towards him? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Ent Posted February 2, 2006 Share Posted February 2, 2006 Maybe Pycelle was their previous target, and Tommen and the women were laughing at some jape one of them directed towards him? Like: "If he had been born without a hand, they could have called him Jaime!" Possible. I could see Cersei saying that (she mocks Jaime in the next chapter). But I don't like it as an explanation. The trio was laughing "at Pycelle" when Jaime enters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HimOfTwoFaces Posted February 3, 2006 Share Posted February 3, 2006 Like: "If he had been born without a hand, they could have called him Jaime!" Possible. I could see Cersei saying that (she mocks Jaime in the next chapter). But I don't like it as an explanation. The trio was laughing "at Pycelle" when Jaime enters. I didn't explain myself clearly. I meant that Taena and Cersei might have been mocking Pycelle, and then switched their efforts over to Jaime once he entered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lupigis Posted February 3, 2006 Share Posted February 3, 2006 I don't get it. Everybody, including Jaime, laughs about his. What is Pycelle so nervous about? Do I smell yet another conspiracy hinted at. Having read the chapter a bit more carefully, here's my take. Pycelle is generally nervous around Cersei at this stage of the book, since it's becoming obvious that she dislikes him. He goes to tell her about Bronn's decision to name the baby Tyrion, not knowing how she will react, but fearing a violent outburst. He finds her drunk, together with Taena and Tommen. He prepares for the worst, but instead of the anger he fears, Cersei is amused by the news. As the two women sees his confusion at their mirth, they start mocking him a bit. Being mocked by two beautiful women 50 years younger than yourself can be more than a bit embarrasing and uncomfortable, especially if you are a man who is used to a position of dignity and power. At this stage Jaime enters. Pycelle is now even more embarrased, and uncertain how Jaime will react at this information. All in all, it's not so strange that he acts the way he does, IMO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashara Stark Posted February 4, 2006 Share Posted February 4, 2006 Apart from all the things you have already pointed out, in this chapter we see Jaime thinking that Cersei is drinking too much of late (Taena's doing?), and offering her good advice again about who to name as Hand and as members of her small council, but again she rejects to hear him. Jaime defines Cersei perfectly when he thinks She does not lack for wits, but she has no judgement, and no patience "Jousting was three quarters horsemanship". A possible hint there as to the identity of the Knight of the Laughing Tree? Well, after that, which is what Jaime believes, he also says that Loras not only rode superbly, but also that he handled a lance as if he'd been born holding one Taena is: (a) Just out for herself, and willing to jump either way depending on which queen comes out on top. ( Truly working for Margaery. ( c) Working for Varys. (d) Working for someone else. On the whole though, I still go for option ( c). For me it is clear that Taena is working for someone else who is neither Cersei nor Margaery, i.e. options ( c) or (d). I think the best options are either Varys or Littlefinger, and considering that the information on the QoT's golden coins come from her it seems Varys is more likely by now. Someone (SKD, I think) theorized on this board that dany was conceided this night after burning chelsted. It does seem quite likely. Perhaps it takes more than one fire to create a dragon That is what I thought, too. Dany was born about nine months after the queen left KL, so it fits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the sweetling Posted February 6, 2006 Share Posted February 6, 2006 I'm a few weeks late, but any Jaime chapter is good to discuss the "fucking Lancel and Osmund Kettleblack and Moon Boy for all I know", anyway... I just wanted to share with you this extract from the Varys / Tyrion discussion at the beginning of ASOS (Tyrion 2) : " "The Kettleblacks report frequently to your sweet sister." "When I think of how much coin I paid those wretched … do you think there's any chance that more gold might win them away from Cersei?" "There is always a chance, but I should not care to wager on the likelihood. They are knights now, all three, and your sister has promised them further advancement." A wicked little titter burst from the eunuch's lips. "And the eldest, Ser Osmund of the Kingsguard, dreams of certain other … favors … as well. You can match the queen coin for coin, I have no doubt, but she has a second purse that is quite inexhaustible." Seven hells, thought Tyrion. "Are you suggesting that Cersei's fucking Osmund Kettleblack?" "Oh, dear me, no, that would be dreadfully dangerous, don't you think? No, the queen only hints … perhaps on the morrow, or when the wedding's done … and then a smile, a whisper, a ribald jest … a breast brushing lightly against his sleeve as they pass … and yet it seems to serve. But what would a eunuch know of such things?" The tip of his tongue ran across his lower lip like a shy pink animal. " So, contrary to what has been implied in the Cersei thread during the reread of the first chapter, I think that Tyrion truly suspects Cersei from sleeping with Osmund. And I find it interesting that this suspicion was planted by Varys. Still looking for evidence regarding Moon Boy, though Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A wilding Posted February 6, 2006 Share Posted February 6, 2006 Well it is possible Tyrion believes it. Though why should he especially? Cersei is obviously not thinking about her own pleasure, and as Varys points out, it would be dangerous to go all the way, as well as unnecessary when she only needs to flirt. I would say that Tyrion's notorious line shows that his cunning did not desert him even in his anger. Lies are much more believable when mixed with truth. So he named Lancel (true), Osmund (probably false, but plausible, and Jaime might find disquieting indications if he looks), and Moon Boy (obviously false, but by now Jaime will be ready to believe anything). Good thought about Varys. He was presumably working to maintain his usefulness to Tyrion, to alienate Tyrion from his family, and perhaps also laying the groundwork for a possible plan to prove Cersei's lack of chastity, should events turn out so as to make it this a useful move. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A wilding Posted February 12, 2006 Share Posted February 12, 2006 Final thought: Kevan is displaying quite a talent for exit lines. First we had "Tommen ... has his father too I think", and now we have "Tell [Cersei] that, the next time you are in her bedchamber". I looked at the previous books and he has come up with a few previous ones, though none so striking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Targaryen Posted February 21, 2006 Share Posted February 21, 2006 Jaime is right about Tyrion lying to him and meaning his words to wound but it is about the wrong thing. I am reminded of Amok’s drawing when Jaime gives his description of Aerys. It seems the plan is for Ramsay to take Cailin from the north. Then Roose will take men up. I once thought Roose would take ship but I guess I was wrong. Aurane Waters is 22, way too old to be Aegon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anya, Vengeance Demon Posted February 23, 2006 Share Posted February 23, 2006 My copy of AFFC has been on loan from person to person since after I finished reading it, but now I have it back, so here I am. Anyhoo, I'm playing catch-up now, so let me start out by noting a comment by Rennifer Longwaters from the first Jaime chapter: "Rugen was here when need be, my lord. That must be said. The black cells are little used. Before your lordship's little brother was sent down, we had Grand Maester Pycelle for a time, and before him Lord Stark the traitor. There were three others, common men, but Lord Stark gave them to the Night's Watch. I did not think it good to free those three, but the papers were in proper order. I made of that in a report as well, you may be certain of it." If you're curious who the Alchemist is working for, this is a key passage. Had Yoren gone to Longwaters to collect the sweepings of the dungeon, Rennifer would not have recommended the Alchemist and his merry band for release. Some years later he's still covering his ass by pointing out that of _course_ he didn't want to do anything about it, but "the papers were in proper order." So the Alchemist only leaves King's Landing on somebody's personal intervention. But whose? Rennifer thinks Ned Stark responsible for filing the papers, but I think that possibility can be dispensed with easily. (If nothing else, this is not mentioned in Ned's chapters.) The individual would presumably have to know who was in the black cells, and have enough contact with them to know that release would serve their purposes. It would presumably be nice if this person could be confident that news of the release would not be widely spread. Somebody who was doubling as an undergoaler would be ideal, if only we knew of such a person. (Also, the quick characterization of Longwaters the petty bureaucrat is fantastic. I love the combination of arrogance and instinctive ass-covering.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Galactus Posted February 23, 2006 Share Posted February 23, 2006 Clock is divided into hours, possibly named after animals. Jaime is met by his sister in the hour of the wolf. Just to point out: This isn't really a westerosism. "The Hour of the Wolf"/"Vargtimmen" is, IIRC; the hour past midnight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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