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AFFC Reread Project - Jaime


cteresa

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The passage is also key to the Syrio=Jaquen theory.

Ned did give Yoren the pick of the dungeons while he was still Hand...then he ended up in the black cells himself soon after. Syrio, if he was indeed captured rather than killed by Ser Meryn, would have been in the black cells the same day as the Lannister coup d'etat. So if Syrio is Jaquen, Yoren must have picked up his prisoners after Ned was deposed. He certainly had time for this, since he doesn't leave KL until the day of Ned's execution.

However, could he have gotten the prisoners on the authority of the deposed Hand? There is no real reason why not, since it isn't a descision of great importance, and Longwaters seems to think he was acting on Lord Stark's orders. Alternatively, someone -- Varys -- could probably have ensured the release, but there is no evidence for this.

On the other hand, Longwaters' words might be taken as meaning the prisoners were released before Satrk was deposed, in which case Syrio can't be Jaquen.

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About Yoren: In AGOT Yoren came to Ned to tell him about Cat imprisonating Imp. We see this from Arya POV. Ned could give him that three man by the end of conversation. Ned is Stark, and Starks are fiends to the NW.

Later in ACOK Yoren was saying how someone (Varys?) came and gave boy (Grendy?) to him just as he was about to leave, and said that Ned is about to take the black. Yoren also confirms that Ned gave him men from the prison.

I think that prisoners were released before Satrk was deposed,and as Lord Vykor noticed Syrio can't be Jaquen.

I also noticed that Aerys had : 'Nine Inch Nails'

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Barba:

We know when Ned gave Yoren his pick of the dungeon. It was in open court after he broke his leg, and Sansa recounts it to Jeyne Poole later. The question is, why did Yoren take Jaqen, Rorge, and Biter? Ned didn't specifically offer them. Rennifer Longwaters, had he been asked, would have advised against freeing them. Yoren took them, but he trusted them so little that they were kept in a cage the entire time. So somebody else must have intervened. We know that Rennifer fingers Ned, but that's almost certainly not true. The most obvious suspect is Varys.

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Jaime apparently believes that Tyrion actually killed Joffrey. It does make some sense from Jaime's POV - after all if Tyrion told truth about CCersei why would he lie about Joff?

Jaime says he didn't sleep for a week. He is apparently set on punishing himself for his part in causing Tywin's death.

It didn't occur to me that Varys purposefully let Jaime trap him, but it is certainly possible. The whole business with Tyrion's escapeand Tywin's death is rather fishy and certainly belongs in to-be-explained category.

Jaime speaks with Cersei and once again refuses to be Hand. He gives her good advice and she actually listens to him whilst she refused to listen to Kevan. Apparently she didn't yet give up on Jaime at this point.

Ser Rennifer is funny, but it does seem strange that they have so few prisoners in the dungeons. We also get another confirmation that Rugen was Varys. He apparently spent quite a lot time in the dungeons. Another point which doesn't seem very convincing to me.

We are treated to another show of Cersei tormenting Tommen. Poor boy. And yes, it is once again confirmed that Joffrey abused him.

I have this beautiful feeling inside that Cersei is finally going to get hers. I have waited a long time for this.

I don't believe that Varys is dead yet. I know that you did not allude to that. Someone else did and I just happen to be annunciating on it in this reply.

I think that it is quite possible that Varys went with Tyrion. Maybe not to the same destination but I believe that they at least left together.

The passage is also key to the Syrio=Jaquen theory.

Ned did give Yoren the pick of the dungeons while he was still Hand...then he ended up in the black cells himself soon after. Syrio, if he was indeed captured rather than killed by Ser Meryn, would have been in the black cells the same day as the Lannister coup d'etat. So if Syrio is Jaquen, Yoren must have picked up his prisoners after Ned was deposed. He certainly had time for this, since he doesn't leave KL until the day of Ned's execution.

However, could he have gotten the prisoners on the authority of the deposed Hand? There is no real reason why not, since it isn't a descision of great importance, and Longwaters seems to think he was acting on Lord Stark's orders. Alternatively, someone -- Varys -- could probably have ensured the release, but there is no evidence for this.

On the other hand, Longwaters' words might be taken as meaning the prisoners were released before Satrk was deposed, in which case Syrio can't be Jaquen.

You know, I've never thought about the Syrio/Jaquen theory. I have asked many times whatever became of Syrio. His death is never mentioned. It is just assumed in Arya's POV. It makes sense. Syrio was a Braaviosi. The House of the Faceless Men is in Braavos (where Arya happens to be now). Yoren did not leave for the Wall until AFTER Ned was executed so could it be possible that Syrio turned to Jaquen? This would also explain how Jacqen knew Arya's real name when only Yoren did (I guess that Gendry knew it too). When Jacquen leaves Arya at Harrenhall he changes his features right before Ayra's eyes. I kind of buy into this theory.

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Barba:

We know when Ned gave Yoren his pick of the dungeon. It was in open court after he broke his leg, and Sansa recounts it to Jeyne Poole later. The question is, why did Yoren take Jaqen, Rorge, and Biter?

I think he took all that was there, or at least on that level. On 121 of AFoC, Longwaters says "There were three others [other than Tyrion, Pycelle, Ned], common me, but Lord Stark gave them to the night's watch." I think that was ALL there was in the dungeons. On the other two levels there are only 5 men currently, we can assume that same paltry amount then too and perhaps their crimes don't warrant sentencing to the wall but are misdemeanors in nature.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Jaime III

The reason why Cersei does not like Jaime's beard is, of course, because it makes him look less like her.

Tyrek's disappearance is brought up again. Clearly some plot point has to turn on what happened to him.

Jaime hangs some broken men, at least one of whom was apparently in the Lannister armies initially. He feels good about it and thinks it "justice". Ironic in the light of Septon Meribald's little speech a couple of chapters back, and of Jaime's partial responsibility for causing the war in the first place.

It appears that Raff is still alive for Arya to take her vengeance on, and (from the appendix) that Dunsen is as well.

Jaime thinks that someone manoeuvred Cersei into choosing Bonifer Hasty as castellan of Harrenhal, but that he is a good choice. Presumably any such manoeuvring was because of Bonifer's connections with the Faith, but I can't see where this takes us, if anywhere.

Jaime wants any surviving Bloody Mummers alive, so that he can take his vengeance on them. He may be turning over a new leaf, but he has no thoughts of forgiving others.

Getting a replacement hand seems to have partly turned Jaime back into his old self. When Red Ronnet starts being rude about Brienne Jaime hits him, apparently without conscious consideration first.

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Is anybody following the Longwaters information? We get another description of Red Keep dungeon administrativa. I cannot piece it together.

What we learn here is that the Chief Something used to be an antler man. (And, if I remember correctly, purchased the office from Littlefinger.) Earlier, Longwaters was puzzled that the dungeons were to be emptied (when Rorge, Biter, and FacelessJaquen were released), "but all the papers were in order". The papers, of course, would have come from the Chief Something, because this all happened before the antler men declared for Stannis and got festooned by King Joffrey before their brief experience with airborne travel.

So there is some weird connection between Jaquen and the antler men. I don't think Littlefinger is necessarily involved—he would have sold the office to anybody with a high enough price and no obvious other political aspirations. What am I supposed to deduce from all of this? The antler men are working with Jaquen? Stannis is a Faceless Man?

Broken men

As observed upthread, Jaime hangs two broken men, and calls it justice. The reader agrees. Even I thought, Oh! Character Development. This is Martin's POV-writing at its best. We actually agree with the characters. When, at the end, we see exactly the same situation from the other side (Brienne hanged), we are shocked. Maybe there is some other fantasy novel out there that actually followed those two poor broken men, and whose readership is outraged at the bitch Jaime.

Timeline

No good information. The last Cersei chapter was April 15. Let's say Jaime leaves a week after that. (The Crown needs to secure Manderly, so there is some reason to hurry up.)

Apr 22 Jaime leaves King's Landing

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Jaime is still very much attracted to Cersei.

It's nice to see that Jaime remembers his oath to not take up arms against Stark or Tully.

It's disappointing that this little paragraph on Tyrek which is basically similar to speculation on the board is all GRRM gives us on Tyrek.

Jaime wants to be known as Goldenhand. He finally cares.

Connington soon drank himself to death eh? It sounds unbelievable for a young man.

SPOILER: ADWD
We know he still lives.
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What we learn here is that the Chief Something used to be an antler man.

Chief Gaoler.

So there is some weird connection between Jaquen and the antler men. I don't think Littlefinger is necessarily involved—he would have sold the office to anybody with a high enough price and no obvious other political aspirations.

The Antler Men arose much later than Jaqen H'ghar's departure with Yoren, though.

This does give us a potential connection between Littlefinger and the black cells.

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Ah, Jaime III, one of my favourite chapters in the book (and the series).

Two pages in, he has a great exchange with Cersei about the relative manliness of Loras and Osmund. For all of Cersei's other faults, she does deliver the better lines in that chat!

We get to see more of the Lannister knights -- IIRC, this is the first time Strongboar has received significant screen time; Kennos of Kayce, who seems to be Jaime's designated trumpeter, gets another appearance (we first met him training against a Kettleblack in ASOS); and Bonifer "the Good" is introduced. It's also good to see more of Addam Marbrand. Even Ilyn Payne shares the characterisation love.

We also see Jaime really starting to fill in for Tyrion as our resident witty/biting Lannister POV. He doesn't want to show the people a lie, (his golden hand) resulting in a somewhat snarky reply to Kennos, and his exchanges with -- and observations on -- Bonifer are also amusing. (I especially like "Pray hard and run", the nickname "The Holy Eighty-Six", and Littlefinger's quip about the riders as well as the mounts being gelded.) His comment to Flement Brax at dinner, "Lop off your hand and you can have it," is perhaps sharpest of all.

Note that Jaime is learning from his mistakes in more ways than one -- after the fiasco at the Whispering Woods, he makes very certain to send Addam Marbrand and his scouts ahead of him.

At Hayford, when Lew Piper asks Jaime about the bruises and injuries he received when sparring with Ilyn Payne, Jaime doesn't tell the truth, whch is understandable enough. However, instead of something more prosaic, he claims that they were love bites from the serving wenches! Does he not care if people think that, by his own admission, he's following in the footsteps of all those other less-than-celibate Kingsguard?

Jaime's arrival at Harrenhal is a great scene. We're treated to the hilarious encounter with Shitmouth, and the rather more horrifying discovery of what befell Vargo Hoat. Even Jaime thinks, "Father, both your dogs have gone mad" and "Somehow, revenge had lost its savour." We also see Pia again, and I found it kind of touching that the poor girl threw herself at the feet of Jaime, of all people. One person, at least, sees him as a knight in shining armour, the man that he wants to be.

Incidentally, Bonifer thinks that Jaime wants to torture the Bloody Mummers, but Jaime himself never actually confirms this.

The end of this chapter also marks the first time that Jaime decks someone with his golden hand. In this case, Red Ronnet is the recipient of the blow, and I have to say, he had it coming. Of course, Jaime's now made an enemy, something which may come back to haunt him.

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ME, nice summary keep the coming.

The chapter's symmetry is that it starts with the Jaime–Cersei romance, where Jaime is still surprisingly infatuated with his sister, lusting for her, and being jealous. And it ends with Jaime defending the honour of Lady Brienne. I like that. The kingslayer–Jaime and wench–Brienne theme of nicknames versus names has gone on, between the two of them, since Storm.

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Red Ronnet is the recipient of the blow, and I have to say, he had it coming. Of course, Jaime's now made an enemy, something which may come back to haunt him.

Conningtons being Targ loyalists...that is really stirring a hornet's nest

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Jaime wants any surviving Bloody Mummers alive, so that he can take his vengeance on them. He may be turning over a new leaf, but he has no thoughts of forgiving others.

Incidentally, Bonifer thinks that Jaime wants to torture the Bloody Mummers, but Jaime himself never actually confirms this.

A Lannister always pays his debts

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ME, nice summary keep the coming.

The chapter's symmetry is that it starts with the Jaime–Cersei romance, where Jaime is still surprisingly infatuated with his sister, lusting for her, and being jealous. And it ends with Jaime defending the honour of Lady Brienne. I like that. The kingslayer–Jaime and wench–Brienne theme of nicknames versus names has gone on, between the two of them, since Storm.

Thanks! Coming from you, that's high praise. :D

I didn't consciously notice the symmetry. Good catch, there, right down to Ronnet now being the one who calls Brienne "wench".

Conningtons being Targ loyalists...that is really stirring a hornet's nest

Well, I'm not so sure in this case. Red Ronnet's branch of the family defected to Robert, after all.

A Lannister always pays his debts

Ah, but he doesn't necessarily have to do so via torture. Even after his hand was chopped off in AFFC, Jaime only thought of "ripping out" the Goat's throat, a relatively clean death compared to what he ultimately received.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Good comments by all, and since I'm only just scrambling to get my post in before people start discussing the next Jaime chapter, I don't have much to add. To me, this is one of the chapters that realy benefitted from a reread. There's not much action, but plenty of character development and little pieces of the big jigsaw puzzle that is ASOIAF. I particularly liked the hints about Jon Connington, and the story of Red Ronnet's "courtship" of Brienne (and Jaimes reaction to it).

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Jaime IV

Apparently Jaime is visiting Castle Darry just to find out if it is true about Lancel and Cersei. :lol:

It is possible that Lancel's near death experience has given him prophetic dreams as well, though it may just be his bad conscience. It seems a little odd that he has dreamt that Jaime will kill him, after all his sins are only: (a) helping kill a king that House Lannister was more or less at war with anyway; and (B) getting seduced by widow Cersei. Neither of these give Jaime an overwhelming motive to kill him. It may mean that Lancel knows about Jaime and Cersei, which does give Jaime a motive. Or perhaps Jaime will eventually end up killing Lancel (on opposite sides of a trial by combat?) and Lancel has had a vision of this.

It seems Lancel did tell the old High Septon about his sins. So Cersei having the man killed was not in itself a completely stupid action. It is interesting that Jaime does immediately jump to the conclusion that Cersei did have him killed - he obviously has few illusions as to that side of Cersei's character.

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Apparently Jaime is visiting Castle Darry just to find out if it is true about Lancel and Cersei.

Well, it is clear that he goes there on a whim. His own excuse is to not get to Riverrun too quickly, hoping that the Warden of the West resolves the situation on his own. I buy that excuse.

But castle Darry is completely surprised by the visit. Lancel must be scared shitless: he knows that Jaime is out there, and frets endlessly about whether or not to confront him and confess his sins. And then, without warning and certainly without invitation, the man decides to visit castle Darry. I can understand why Lancel isn't in the most festive of moods.

For both Jaime and Lancel, their meeting is an important one that resolves nagging doubts. Jaime feels surprisingly little anger. He seems to have left Cersei for good. Indeed, her spell was broken as soon as he left King's Landing. Suddenly Jaime felt good. He liked being away from Cersei, even though he begged her to remain just a chapter ago.

This, of course, is finally an instance of the Circe motive that I have been waiting for since book 1. GRRM must have named Cersei for Circe, and Jaime is Odysseus. Maybe we need a full thread for this on the main FfC forum. (Riverrun is "home", the place he needs to return to.)

Timeline

Cersei's decision of having King Tommen re-instate the Warrior's Sons has already reached Darry. Of course, Darry will already have working ravens, so this may be just a few days ago.

Arboreal perspective

Jaime's fight with Ser Ilyn, where he actually confesses to High Treason , is set in the godswood of Castle Darry.

There were no sparrows there, only trees, bare and brooding, their black branches scratching at the sky...

Whoo-hoo! GRMM lapses into figurative speech and alliteration, even! It's almost like reading literature. This is a very rare moment of beautiful writing! He doesn't treat us to many of those, in fact, GRRM seems to normally avoid this tone like the plague. Of course, this is a godswood scene, so we will forgive him this little slip just as we forgave the only other truly beautiful line in the books, "the air was alive with the music of dragons". Great events and settings call for more than just functional prose.

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It is possible that Lancel's near death experience has given him prophetic dreams as well, though it may just be his bad conscience. It seems a little odd that he has dreamt that Jaime will kill him, after all his sins are only: (a) helping kill a king that House Lannister was more or less at war with anyway; and (B) getting seduced by widow Cersei. Neither of these give Jaime an overwhelming motive to kill him. It may mean that Lancel knows about Jaime and Cersei, which does give Jaime a motive. Or perhaps Jaime will eventually end up killing Lancel (on opposite sides of a trial by combat?) and Lancel has had a vision of this.

Alternatively, it could simply be that Jaime, as a former role model and the person he would least have wanted to disappoint until recently, represents Lancel's guilt at not living up to his own standards.

Jaime's fight with Ser Ilyn, where he actually confesses to High Treason , is set in the godswood of Castle Darry.

This seemed a bit careless to me. Recall that Lancel's bedroom looks out upon the godswood, and that Jaime gave Peck his permission to use that bedroom with Pia. It's possible nothing will come of this, but still . . .

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Recall that Lancel's bedroom looks out upon the godswood, and that Jaime gave Peck his permission to use that bedroom with Pia

pity that GRRM didn't state which way the wind was blowing ;)

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Don't forget that Lancel joined that knight order (Poor fellows or something). I consider them something like Kingsguard of the Septon.

CRACKPOT:

So it might be that Cersei will be found guilty, and during her execution Jamie will get pissed and try to save her, or try to kill High Septon. Then Lancel will interfere, and Jamie will kill him. After that some other knight will kill Jamie. Oh, and Kevan (valonqar) will be there, and he will also be all pissed because his son just died, so he will wrap his hands around her throat and she will die.

And all propercies and foreshadowings are fulfilled.

- Cersei is killed by valonqar

- Cersei and Jamie leave this world together

- Lancel is killed by Jamie

Only Tommen should die before her, but there is million ways to do this.

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