AFFC Reread Project - Sansa

[Natsu]

Now, Bastard of Godsgrace I call on thee! Defend this comment you made five years and one week ago!

He doesn't have to :-) No one writes in a forum expecting an answer. I just entered and read a lot of stuff, and then added my opinion. I don't expect answers to every post with a quotation, and certainly not from the person quoted

[RWHamel]

I said this before. I think Sansa's cover was blown. The Lords Declarant withdrew because Bronze Yohn realized it was her. It takes more than some medieval hair dye to conceal an identity. I think Little Finger paraded her in front of them so that they would.

[Whatever]

I said this before. I think Sansa's cover was blown. The Lords Declarant withdrew because Bronze Yohn realized it was her. It takes more than some medieval hair dye to conceal an identity. I think Little Finger paraded her in front of them so that they would.

Why do you think he recognized her? i really don't think so. most people in westeros can't see beyond one's appearance.. the first example i remember is the hound at the twins "Keep your eyes down and your tone respectful and say ser a lot, and most knights will never see you"

[RWHamel]

Why do you think he recognized her? i really don't think so. most people in westeros can't see beyond one's appearance.. the first example i remember is the hound at the twins "Keep your eyes down and your tone respectful and say ser a lot, and most knights will never see you"

What the hound said, this is not the way Sansa is behaving.

Arya is a bad example. She neither looks, or acts like a lady, especially at that point. What is the first thing they do at Harrenhal, they examine her hands. They notice her calluses. This is something Sansa doesn't have, but a bastard being trained as a Septa would. That is something most people in a status conscious society look for. “Most knights” are not all knights, and somebody like Bronze Yohn is not in my opinion, in the “most knights” category.

“Do I know you, girl?'

He recognizes her, and Lady Waynwood makes the connection too. The only thing they didn't do is blurt it out.

You believe that on the flimsiest of reasons that the Lords Declarant lost their resolve.

I believe that they had a good reason to pull back.

[Anya, Vengeance Demon]

You believe that on the flimsiest of reasons that the Lords Declarant lost their resolve.

I don't think that the Lords Declarant lost their resolve for a flimsy reason.

The reality of the situation never favored their cause as much as one might think. If they can cow Littlefinger into backing off by a show of unity, then that's one thing. But if they can't, then it starts to look like a protracted civil war with Vale lords lining up on both sides, not the lords of the Vale uniting against an outside force. And once there's civil disorder, then it would be easy to imagine the Crown taking a side, and it's no secret who their candidate would be if they were forced to make a decision. And even if the Lords Declarant did win a protracted fight, that could ultimately be worse for the Vale than permitting Littlefinger--an admittedly talented administrator, who did wonders in Gulltown and in King's Landing--to stay in power.

That's not to say that the Lords Declarant were foolish. Had they been able to sway Nestor Royce over to their side, then in all likelihood Littlefinger would have found himself without allies in the Vale, and then the Crown would be pressuring him to step down and return to King's Landing. But the business with Lyn Corbray effectively prevented that from happening and put the Lords Declarant on the defensive long enough to listen to Littlefinger's message. If you read the chapter again, though, the lords don't back down until Littlefinger starts laying out the weaknesses of their position.

Your theory, on the other hand, doesn't make a lot of sense to me. Why would Bronze Yohn Royce back down because he saw Sansa Stark?

[RWHamel]

It's hardly protracted if they are already running out of food. Three weeks at the max. Of course, they might all die in the Eyrie, and that would be a shame, but there is still Harrold Hardyng. He would inherit a couple of years sooner than if things had taken there normal course. I'm sure the LD would console themselves that this would be Littlefinger's fault, not theirs. This was the plan before they even got started. Are you saying that they did all this without thinking about it? It seems highly unlikely that the Lords, and Ladies of the Vale are as stupid as some of you are trying to make them.

The only thing they didn't know about, and therefore couldn't have planned on, is Sansa. In the scheme of things she is the equivalent to Harry.

The drama with Corbray is a red herring. Littlefinger's plan is to bargin using Sansa.

[Whatever]

Why? i mean, sansa is nothing to the vale's lords.

[Anya, Vengeance Demon]

It's hardly protracted if they are already running out of food. Three weeks at the max.

Why, was there no food in the stores at the Gates of the Moon? Is that established some place?

Of course, they might all die in the Eyrie, and that would be a shame, but there is still Harrold Hardyng. He would inherit a couple of years sooner than if things had taken there normal course. I'm sure the LD would console themselves that this would be Littlefinger's fault, not theirs. This was the plan before they even got started. It seems highly unlikely that the Lords, and Ladies of the Vale are as stupid as some of you are trying to make them.

The only thing they didn't know about, and therefore couldn't have planned on, is Sansa. In the scheme of things she is the equivalent to Harry.

Once again, that doesn't fit with how the lords actually behave during the chapter. Bronze Yohn and Lady Waynwood both hold firm despite having apparently penetrated Sansa's disguise. They reach an impasse, Lyn Corbray acts up, and "the doubt"--to use Sansa's words--only starts "blooming" after Littlefinger lays down the law: "If it is war you want, say so now and the Vale will bleed." At that point, it is Lord Redfort, not Bronze Yohn or Lady Waynwood, who starts backing down first.

So yes, I do think that the Lords expect Littlefinger to cave before their combined might, or failing that, for Nestor Royce to switch sides. You may recall that this was the prevailing belief in King's Landing. Everybody--from Tywin Lannister on down--thought of Littlefinger as somebody who was too amiable and lowborn to be really formidable.

[Timekeeper]

Who are the three queens Littlefinger is talking about?

Cersei and Margeary for sure, but is the third one Dany, Myrcella or Selyse? I'm simply not sure, but am leaning towards Myrcella. That would mean that LF is involved in the action in Dorne.

I always assumed the three queens were Cersei, Margaery and Dany. We know that LF has connections with shipping and brothels, naturally his contacts would inform him of the news and rumors coming from the east. With his years on the Small Council, he's heard all the reports Varys made of Viserys and Dany running between the Free Cities. Putting that and the tales of dragons together, and it's no leap of faith to think he considers that a surviving Targ wants to return to Westeros with an army at her back.

While the third might be Myrcella, I don't really buy it. Dorne is thousands of leagues from the Vale, and even if it goes up in flames once it learns she's attacked (or dies), armies have smashed themselves against the Gates of the Moon without success. A dragon, on the other hand...

[Anya, Vengeance Demon]

Why, was there no food in the stores at the Gates of the Moon? Is that established some place?

I just re-read the relevant Alayne chapter as part of my series-long reread, and have to admit that I had this wrong. Alayne says early in the chapter that the Lords Declarant are somehow preventing Mya Stone from delivering "fresh foodstuffs" to the Eyrie, hence the lack of eggs and bacon. She also says that the there's enough food in the stores to last the small Eyrie household up to a year, so my larger point isn't changed.