AFFC Reread Project - Sansa

[Happy Ent]

TR, you're on fire. Keep 'em coming.

Random Observation #452: the whole reason for having Sansalayne welcome the Lords (instead of Petyr meeting them, or Lothor Apple-Eater, or Colemon) is so that Lyn can make his rude remarks about her maidenhead. That gives us the first discord among the lords right there. Lady Waynwood chastises him, and wants to have the whole affair over with as fast as possible.

Random Observation #987: Is it really Sansa's decision to put the chairs 2+6? If so, that's really clever of her. (Because it forces SmallRoyce to sit besides Petyr, as we see later.) But maybe Petyr told her to put the chairs the way they are. The detail about the sharp white cheese instead of the blue one goes above my head. Perhaps those more versed in the psychology of fromagian pleasures can explain why that serves Petyr's purpose better. Or is —gasp!—a wheel of cheese sometimes just a wheel of cheese. (Anyway, fungus is something that grows on your bark. It's not something you eat.)

Random Observation #532: Tapestries are hit with porridge flung by Lord Robert. "Splendid tapestries" are on the way from the crescent chambers to the solar. "Splendid" tapestries are also what Cersei "is sending", though I took that remark to mean that Cersei's hadn't quite arrived yet. A Treat of Tapestries would have been a good alternative title. (In a later Jaime chapter there will even be even a tapestry joke.)

Random Observation #432: For a short moment Sansa considers throwing herself at Lord Yohn's feet for protection. Protection from what one wonders? Apparently, Sansa isn't too comfortable around Petyr after all. Clever child. Of course, the singer (who may be Marillion, the Blue Bard, or Baby Aegon Himself) made sure to sing of betrayals over and over, enough to make Sansa feel really guilty.

Random Observation #764: Petyr claims that King's Landing will send men as well, to fight the Lords. That's a lie. And the Smallest Council pretty much confirmed to the Lords that they will doing exactly nothing to help either side. Petyr gets away with it. Strange. (Of course, Royce isn't fooled by any of this.)

[Thynessa Reed]

see what a little encouragement can do to a girl.

The only thing that springs to mind about the cheeses is that in keeping with the entire Arryn decor of the Eyrie, they too are blue and white.

[Lupigis]

Timeline. All I can see is that Cersei has promised to send tapestries, so this chapter plays after the wonderful Smallest Council chapter.

I tought a bit about this. Is there any reason to assume it takes place a very long time after the Smallest Council chapter? If not, the first or second week of April seems a reasonable guess. Perhaps you could make an entry in the timeline at April 7, +/- 1 week?

[the sweetling]

The detail about the sharp white cheese instead of the blue one goes above my head...

I think the fact that the only cheeses left in the Eyrie at the moment are a "sharp white" and a "stinky blue" is just a detail to show how efficient the blocus of the Lord Declarants is, and how precarious Littlefinger's situation seems at the beginning of the chapter... same as the absence of eggs for breakfast.

[Bastard of Godsgrace]

I agree with those who say that Littlefinger's plotting in this chapter is really lame. It looks increasingly that he is succeeding only by authorial fiat, and we are supposed to admire his cleverness, whilst in fact his plots are quite easy to see through. I am not the most perceptive reader, and if I did manage to see through Corbray's game during first reading, how come Lords Declarant didn't? OTOH, it was argued that at least Bronze Yohn did realize whatw as happening, but he had no way to stop it. Still I would like to see something more unexpected from the supposed master plotter.

Harrold Hardyng is mentioned for teh first timje, and we get to know that both LF and Yohn Royce have designds for him, but we still don't know why.

I agree that there is something fishy about the whole Marillion business, but what it may be? I don't think Marillion can be Blue Bard, since Blue Bard is mentioned in one of previous Cersei chapters. I can't think of any plausible theory which would let Marillion be alive. Perhaps Martin is just pulling reader's leg?

I agree that Sansa is uncexpectedly clever with the chairs, and in several other moments as well, but still nothing comes out of it, and I find it frustrating. She still does seem to be buying Littlefinger's game and it doesn't bode well for her.

[Grant Dempsey]

As far as Marillion is concerned, I assume he told Nestor Royce the lie Littlefinger wanted him to tell because he was threatened with torture if he didn't. Littlefinger did say "Mord has ways of being persuasive" and the singer did, according to rumor, lose his eyes and some of his fingers. Combined with the unlikelihood of Nestor Royce believing him (or acting on it if he did) anyway, Marillion would have had more to lose by trying to choke out the truth than by continuing the lie.

Now, Sweetrobin hearing the song at night...I would consider that truly just nightmares. All circumstances surrounding the singer were traumatizing for him, after all; I believe the mention of the boy hearing his singing in his nightmares was probably meant just to reflect that.

[Anya, Vengeance Demon]

I don't think that Littlefinger's scheme is particularly transparent. Corbray has a reputation already for being vain, hot-tempered and reckless, and has since Catelyn got to the Vale in AGoT. And he doesn't come in appearing to be deliberately provocative. He doesn't bring up Alayne's maidenhead first, for example. He just reacts to Lord Hunter's comment (which is almost as crude). And he doesn't say anything in the meeting between the Lords Declarant and Littlefinger for quite a while. He only loses his temper (or seems to)when it appears that there's an impasse and it's natural for a hot-tempered, reckless man to get frustrated.

[Ashara Stark]

Petyr wants Robert Arryn will die. Poisoned from sweetsleep, or falling off a cliff, it makes no matter.

I agree with you. The treatment the maester is giving Robert (leeches, dreamwine and milk of the poppy in high doses) sounds quite unhealthy on its own, and Littlefinger's order of giving him sweetsleep can only be a means to accelerate his death.

Sansa wishes she had wings ... a hint to her being one of the three dragonriders?

The fact Littlefinger seems to be afraid of the curse of Harrenhal has shocked me. I saw him as a completely rational person but that shows he is capable of irrational thoughts. I think this will be important in the future, Sansa may use it to defeat him once she knows he was behind her father's death

I don't think that Littlefinger's scheme is particularly transparent

I agree with you, S. Tarzan. The only hint to Corbray working for Littlefinger is the fact that he smiles at Lothor Brune, but it is likely that only Sansa noticed it because the Lord Declarants weren't looking at him at that moment.

For a short moment Sansa considers throwing herself at Lord Yohn's feet for protection. Protection from what one wonders?

Well, Cersei has set a price on Sansa's head, so if she wants to be Sansa again she needs somebody to protect her from the iron Throne. It is that or remain being Alayne

[Grant Dempsey]

The fact Littlefinger seems to be afraid of the curse of Harrenhal has shocked me. I saw him as a completely rational person but that shows he is capable of irrational thoughts. I think this will be important in the future, Sansa may use it to defeat him once she knows he was behind her father's death

It seemed more like another example of Littlefinger's sarcasm than geniune superstitious fear. He clearly has his other reasons for ignoring Harrenhal, after all.

I agree with you, S. Tarzan. The only hint to Corbray working for Littlefinger is the fact that he smiles at Lothor Brune, but it is likely that only Sansa noticed it because the Lord Declarants weren't looking at him at that moment.

Even then, the Lords Declarant could have figured it to be a taunting smile, rather than one of friendship or cooperative awareness. Even Alayne herself thought, I do not like the way he smiles, after she saw it.

[Bastard of Godsgrace]

I didn't read Littlefinger's fear of Harrenhal as sarcasm at all. It looks like he is genuinely superstitious. OTOH, it is a fantasy novel and magic does work here from time to time, so perhaps he is right.

[Jon Targaryen]

Just off hand, I wonder how the Royce family survived the Andal invasion. Maybe they were the kings of the Vale before the Arryns came and they made peace with them.

Jon had to fight against his own bannermen too. I wonder if Ned had to put down a Bolton rebellion when he got back to the North.

Confirmation that the time Yohn Royce came north to see Ned was when his son took the black.

What humble piece is LF referring to?

It seems Lyn is either attracted to Lothor Brune or smiles at his potential foes.

[Barba]

Something just crossed my mind. I don't remember in which chapter it was, but Petyr was naming all rulers of Harrenhal and said they were all dead: Lady Whent, Tywin, Lorch, Gregor, Hoath, but he forgot one still alive: Roose Bolton. I sure hope that Martin means to kill this guy by the end of ADWD. Then I think most of North would go to Stannis.

[Happy Ent]

Confirmation that the time Yohn Royce came north to see Ned was when his son took the black.

Confirmation also that Ned is an average swordsman. A renowned knight like Bronze Yohn completely destroys him in the training yard. And he also defeats Ser Jory (or was it Rodrick?), but without any mention of totally overmatching him. So Stark < Cassel < Royce.

[Ashara Stark]

It seems Lyn is either attracted to Lothor Brune or smiles at his potential foes.

As Littlefinger says that Corbray is attracted to little boys and therefore Brune is too old for him, I took that smile for the confirmation of the part Lyn was playing for Littlefinger against the Lord Declarants.

[Anya, Vengeance Demon]

When Littlefinger (and Jaime, about Oberyn) refer to somebody preferring "boys," my suspicion is that they mean that Lyn and Oberyn prefer to give rather than receive. In a lot of cultures, a man who takes the more active role with another man can escape with his masculinity intact; but somebody who receives would be no true man at all, hence referring to them disparagingly as "boys."

[Lupigis]

Sansa III

This chapter is filled with details to pick over, and it has been discussed a lot already. Perhaps that is the reason why no one has posted about it yet. I'll try to summarise the most important questions that I can think of when rereading the third Sansa chapter:

Is Sansa's real identity (about to be) revealed?

There are three occasions when we can see that Sansa's secret is at risk.

The first is at the beginning of the chapter, when Alayne has coaxed little Robert out of bed. She immediately starts ordering not only the servants, but also the squires around. Gyles Grafton gets told to clean up the broken chamber pot. Many boarders think that this behaviour from Alayne Stone, a bastard, will seem suspicious. Furthermore, Lord Grafton, Gyles' father, is the Lord of Gulltown, and Gyles presumably grew up there. If Gyles gets suspicious, or if he tells tales about Alayne that makes his father suspicious, it will be very easy for Lord Grafton to start checking Alaynes past (she is supposed to have been born in Gulltown and given to the Faith by her mother there).

The second is when Miranda Royce mentions that a bastard son of Lord Stark has become commander of the Night's Watch and Sansa blurts out "Jon Snow". IMO, there's no reason why Alayne Stone should react like that, and it's pretty sure to arouse suspicion if Miranda Royce is as smart as Littlefinger thinks she is.

The third time is at the end of the chapter, when Sansa meets the hedge knights that Littlefinger has just hired. One of them is Shadrich, who Brienne met earlier. He has been looking for Sansa, perhaps for a long time. It's possible that he has decided to give up the hunt and look for other opportunities. Even so, Miranda Royce and Gyles Grafton may be suspicious in general, but Littlefinger is a man of many plots and they may not make the connection between Alayne and Sansa for a long time. Shadrich, on the other hand will be likely to make the connection rather more quickly once he gets suspicious, since he must have been thinking a lot about Sansa, where she might have gone and how to recognise her.

In view of all this, it's good for Littlefinger that he's not planning to keep this secret for ever. He reveals his plans for Alayne at the end of the chapter and that leads us to the next question, namely:

What is Littlefinger really planning for Sansa?

Oh, it all sounds so good when Littlefinger tells it. Sansa will marry Harry and they will live happily ever after as Lord and Lady of the Vale and the North. However, you don't have to be a rocket scientist to figure out that LF is not telling the whole plan, or indeed the whole truth here. First of all, Sansa is a wanted criminal. Anyone who aids her openly is effectively a rebel to the Crown, since they are supporting a regicide. Thus, in order for LFs plan to work, he needs to clear Sansa of Joffery's murder. How is he going to achieve that?

Secondly, if he does somehow manage to get Sansa in the clear, he will lose his most important hold over her. She will still be economically dependent, but that will vanish when she has married Harry and he has come into his inheritance. Once Sansa is a free woman and Lady of the Vale, what's to stop her from going "My name is Sansa Stark. You killed my father. Prepare to die!" on LFs ass?

It has been suggested that LF plans to kill Harry and marry Sansa himself, and that is quite likely, but he still needs a way to control Sansa during the interval between her marriage to Harry and the conception of a heir to Harry the Heir (I assume this is necessary for Sansa to remain in control of the Vale after Harrys death). So, what's our favourite plotter really up to?

Another thing LF says that has been discussed a lot is when he mention "three queens".

Who are the three queens Littlefinger is talking about?

Cersei and Margeary for sure, but is the third one Dany, Myrcella or Selyse? I'm simply not sure, but am leaning towards Myrcella. That would mean that LF is involved in the action in Dorne.

Onward then, to the final question.

Why not mention Dragonstone?

Another thing that has been the subject of intense discussins is the fact that Miranda Royce mentions the fall of Riverrun, but not of Dragonstone. Some people have interpreted this as support for the theory that the story of the siege and defeat of Dragonstone is a lie that the Tyrells tell Cersei to get her to allow the fleet to move in defence against the Ironmen. The idea is that Miranda Royce would surely have mentioned the fall of Dragonstone if it had really happened. The counter argument is that the fall of Riverrun may have happened before the fall of Dragonstone, and that this chapter takes place after the one but before the other. I haven't followed these discussions myself, so I'll just ask what the rest of you think about this.

Whew, that was a handful! I hope there's enough now to get the rest of the rereaders posting about this interesting chapter.

[A wilding]

That is a pretty comprehensive summary.

The only thing that I can think of to add is that little Robert is being dosed with sweetsleep in quantities that make the maester nervous. It has been speculated that Littlefinger intends to have Sansa kill Robert with an overdose of sweetsleep, or possibly just make it look as though she killed him. This would give Littlefinger a fresh hold over her for use once she is cleared of regicide and marrying Harry the Heir.

[Lupigis]

That is a pretty comprehensive summary.

Thank you!

I just thought a bit about Dragonstone and Riverrun and realised something. Please bear with me if this line of thought has already come up. We don't know exactly how the Royces get their information, but it's safe to say that they can't get all their ravens directly from the sites of action. For instance, when Jaime took Riverrun, he obviously sent ravens to Kings Landing, and possibly a few other important locations, but he can hardly have bothered to send one to the Royces. Thus, news of the fall of Riverrun must have come to the Royces from another correspondent. Presumably the same is true of all the other news they recieve. Now, consider the possibilities regarding Dragonstone:

Option 1

Everything went pretty much as we learn about it from Cersei's POV. In this case, the Lannisters would proclaim their victory to all of Westeros, and the Royces would learn of it.

Option 2a

Dragonstone never fell. The attack was either repelled or never happened, and the story that Cersei was told was a lie. In this case, the Lannisters would still proclaim victory, and the Royces would have no reason to believe otherwise.

Option 2b

The same as in 2a, except that the Royces have access to news from Dragonstone through a channel that is independent of the Lannisters and Kings Landing. In this case the Royces will receive two different stories. They may then for whatever reason choose to believe that Dragonstone still holds out. However, in this situation, would Miranda Royce really tell Sansa that Dragonstone holds, without mentioning that the Lannisters and Kings Landing seems to believe that they have taken it after a fierce battle? I don't think so!

From this I can only conclude that Sansa III takes place after the surrender of Riverrun, but before news of Dragonstone has reached the Vale. Does anyone disagree?

[Jughead of the Round]

From this I can only conclude that Sansa III takes place after the surrender of Riverrun, but before news of Dragonstone has reached the Vale. Does anyone disagree?

I don't know what's going on with the information on Dragonstone... I just hope it's not a typo, and that all this speculation has been for nought!

In Jaime's last chapter, after Riverrun has fallen, he reflects on the war and on how Dragonstone has fallen. The timeline is fishy here... surely Sansa's chapter falls after Riverrun has fallen, but in Jaime's chapter he thinks Dragonstone has fallen, so there's definitely something strange going on. Dragonstone was supposedly conquered long before Jaime took down Riverrun... so how does the Vale know Riverrun has fallen, but not Dragonstone?

Argh, I'm giving myself a headache. Jaime's last chapter does offer a long period of time... like a couple of weeks it seems. Cersei's last three chapters may cover the same time period... (like each one a day), so it may be possible that Riverrun fell before Dragonstone from this. Again, it's all speculation...

[Gerold Hightower]

Information doesn't travel with the speed of light in Westeros. IIRC, Stannis sent out all his ravens with copies of the letter denouncing Cersei and Jaime. Cersei certainly got the news of Dragonstone's fall personally from Aurane Waters and not by raven. Riverrun, on the other hand, still had a full rookerie, hadn't it? So I guess news of Riverrun's fall spread a lot faster than that of Dragonstone's.