AFFC Reread Project - Sansa

[Anya, Vengeance Demon]

Lupigis:

Excellent post. One thing, though: Alayne's mother was supposed to be a gentlewoman of Braavos, daughter to a merchant prince, who Petyr met in Gulltown; presumably, the story is that she lived in Braavos most of the time. So really you'd have to go to Braavos to check out Alayne's story, which almost certainly wouldn't be worth the effort.

Also, Alayne was left in charge of the castle in Petyr's absence, right? So her behavior isn't that peculiar.

[Jon Targaryen]

Alayne 2

I wonder what house the Griffin King belonged to.

“Alayne†still loves lemon cakes.

Sansa still holds onto the Hound. He may be the thing to bring her back to herself.

LF is making progress. That guy can play.

Robert never acknowledged Mya. Odd considering he played with her all the time.

It seems the falcons are native to the Eyrie. So the Arryns must have taken that sigil when they conquered the Vale.

Ser Shadrich succeeded where Brienne did not. He has found Sansa.

We get confirmation that Anya Waynwood is actually a Waynwood.

[The Adequate Jon]

At the end of Sansa 2, Littlefinger tells Sansa that Lord Belmore is corrupt and can be bought. In this chapter, we find out that Lord Belmore has reconciled with LF and is attending Lyonel Corbrey's wedding.

In one of Brienne's chapters Dick Crabb mentions the Brothers Brune who brought peace to Crackclaw Point for a while. In this chapter, Ser Lothor Brune confirms that he has relatives in Crackclaw point.

[HimOfTwoFaces]

Robert never acknowledged Mya. Odd considering he played with her all the time.

Robert "made some noise" about bringing Mya to court after Joffrey gutted that cat, but Cersei told him something along the lines of, "Do as you will, but you may find that King's Landing is not a healthy place for a girl to grow up in." Robert then gave her a bruise she found difficult to hide from Jaime, but he never mentioned Mya again.

[Lord Eddard's Shame]

Oh, it all sounds so good when Littlefinger tells it. Sansa will marry Harry and they will live happily ever after as Lord and Lady of the Vale and the North. However, you don't have to be a rocket scientist to figure out that LF is not telling the whole plan, or indeed the whole truth here. First of all, Sansa is a wanted criminal. Anyone who aids her openly is effectively a rebel to the Crown, since they are supporting a regicide. Thus, in order for LFs plan to work, he needs to clear Sansa of Joffery's murder. How is he going to achieve that?

You forget, Littlefinger is banking on Cersei running everything into the ground. Indeed, he even says he did not count on her making such a royal botch of things so soon and the fact that she seems determined to bring ruin to House Lannister's hold on the Iron Throne at such a rapid rate is forcing him to act before he is ready and long before he would like. He had counted on a few years of peace with Cersei as regent to cement his hold on the Vale. Knowing that he will not have that time, he takes in Hedge Knights and sellswords.

Sansa's "crime" was against House Lannister. They are the only ones who would want her to pay for her "treason" if anyone else gets the throne they will no doubt reward her. There's not like to be much of Lannister left by the time Cersei and Dany are done. House Tyrell, especially Mace, may object, but as we've seen Mace is all bluster and House Tyrell's sun has begun to set as well.

I believe "the Three Queens" Littlefinger with the Long Game refered to are most definately Cersei Margary and Myrcella. Littlefinger has no reason to know about Daenarys. That was Varys' secret, not Littlefingers. I doubt Littlefinger keeps up with every rumor from across the ocean, which is all Dany is right now, though he does have contacts across the ocean with all his mercentile dealings.

He is, however, clever enough to figure out that the Dornish would probably try and crown Myrcella in favor of Tommen, and he may even be trying to influence events in Dorne to bring this about to foment more chaos.

Information doesn't travel with the speed of light in Westeros. IIRC, Stannis sent out all his ravens with copies of the letter denouncing Cersei and Jaime. Cersei certainly got the news of Dragonstone's fall personally from Aurane Waters and not by raven. Riverrun, on the other hand, still had a full rookerie, hadn't it? So I guess news of Riverrun's fall spread a lot faster than that of Dragonstone's.

The Vale has been cut off from the rest of the world for over a year now. Indeed, one might say for the entire series, so closer to two years. People may have simply stopped sending ravens to the Lords of the Vale as frequently as they might have otherwise since they get no response back adn recieve no news from the Vale itself. It would make sense for them to learn news of the world slower than other parts of the continent because of this.

[Raven Queen]

An important point mentioned upthead is that all of these chapters are about Sansa hiding the truth from herself, and therefore possibly from us. I think we should begin to consider the possibility that Sansa is becoming an increasingly unreliable narrator. This may be due to LF's guidance, but more likely I see it as a form of self-protection. She is compartmentalizing herself so as not to focus too much on things that might concern "Sansa."

One general example of this is how much Sansa's chapters focus on LF and his machinations. Very little time is spent on Sansa, her interior thoughts, etc. Her POV chapters in previous book (and POV chapters of other characters) usually have a lot more interior monologue, general thoughts and feelings of the characters. Fro Sansa there is very little. Her inner voice is silent at some pretty important moments.

[Barba]

Her inner voice is silent at some pretty important moments.

Especially when her aunt Lysa died in SoS

[Raven Queen]

Robert never acknowledged Mya. Odd considering he played with her all the time.

It seems like the only bastard that Robert ever acknowledged was Edric Storm, and only because Edric's mother was high born and their tryst became public as they were in Stannis and Selyse's bedroom on their wedding. Robert might have adored Mya (though apparently only when she was very little-- she doesn't know Robert is her father, does she?)-- but that doesn't mean that he would ever acknowledge her.

I don't know exactly what "acknowledging" a bastard means by Westerosi standards, since you still don't get legitimacy or a last name. It also doesn't seem to have anything to do with the level of the father's involvement-- Robert was very involved with Mya when she was little, paid for Gendry's apprenticeship fees, yet never "acknowledged" either; yet he isn't involved at all with Edric Storm, whom he has acknowledged.

At any rate, it seems as though a noble will *never* acknowledge *any* bastard unless forced to, due to potential problems that these acknowledged bastards could cause to trueborn heirs, down the line. An exception is Ned, who is considered extremely honorable and his treatment of Jon is considered atypical by all.

For me, the line is still unclear between acknowledged and unacknowledged bastards. Everyone knows Ramsay is Roose's bastard son, and Ramsay even took the last name Bolton, but Catelyn says that Roose never acknowleged Ramsay, despite bringing him to his castle when his own trueborn heir died.

This makes me think there is some kind of paperwork involved-- something more than just standing up and saying "Mya is my daughter."

[Intercept]

Am I the only one who thinks Sansa is being groomed by Littlefinger to be a much smarter Cersei? With Cersei's charms, but tutelage in Littlefinger's expertise in subterfuge and planning. I began to like her a lot in Feast for Crows because she finally matured and quit whining. She displays an enormous amount of patience when dealing with Robert and has changed significantly. She's much more careful and economical with what she says, and the majority of her POVs deals with her studying other people and trying to discern their intentions or character rather than enjoying the sound of her own voice and daydreaming.

[Gaston de Foix]

Alayne 2

I wonder what house the Griffin King belonged to.

“Alayne†still loves lemon cakes.

Sansa still holds onto the Hound. He may be the thing to bring her back to herself.

LF is making progress. That guy can play.

Robert never acknowledged Mya. Odd considering he played with her all the time.

It seems the falcons are native to the Eyrie. So the Arryns must have taken that sigil when they conquered the Vale.

Ser Shadrich succeeded where Brienne did not. He has found Sansa.

We get confirmation that Anya Waynwood is actually a Waynwood.

Jon, why would Anya Waynwood be anyone other than a Waynwood? I don't understand

[sholtzma]

I wonder if Alayne will actually put up with the knowledge that little Robert will be slowly poisoned to death/aggravated into more violent seizures/removed from the Game in any kind of obvious way by LF. It's one thing to have half crazy adults like Lysa killed, Ser Dontos killed after hearing his demand for the gold he was promised in return for her, but will Alayne/Sansa be able to stomach the murder of a spoiled, yet innocent child? She KNOWS that the maester is concerned about how much sweetsleep Robert is getting, knows that LF is encouraging it; this will be telling. It will illuminate her character as a Cersei-in-the-making (or not) for sure.

[Daggyr]

I really like the juxtaposition between Arya and Sansa; they both start in the same place and both go through tales of growing up, but in very different ways, and heading down very different paths. Arya is becoming an assassin and a warrior, Sansa, a cunning liar and a player in the game of thrones.

It's a personal change as well, her whole world perspective has shifted. I love this quote from page 883:

She had not thought of Jon in ages. He was only her half brother, but still... with Robb and Bran and Rickon dead, Jon Snow was the only brother that remained to her. I am a bastard too now, just like him. Oh, it would be so sweet, to see him once again.

I think spending some time as a baseborn girl has taught Sansa some humility. She doesn't seem to revile everyone below her as she used to, and that's all for the better.

[Datepalm]

It seems like the only bastard that Robert ever acknowledged was Edric Storm, and only because Edric's mother was high born and their tryst became public as they were in Stannis and Selyse's bedroom on their wedding. Robert might have adored Mya (though apparently only when she was very little-- she doesn't know Robert is her father, does she?)-- but that doesn't mean that he would ever acknowledge her.

I don't know exactly what "acknowledging" a bastard means by Westerosi standards, since you still don't get legitimacy or a last name. It also doesn't seem to have anything to do with the level of the father's involvement-- Robert was very involved with Mya when she was little, paid for Gendry's apprenticeship fees, yet never "acknowledged" either; yet he isn't involved at all with Edric Storm, whom he has acknowledged.

At any rate, it seems as though a noble will *never* acknowledge *any* bastard unless forced to, due to potential problems that these acknowledged bastards could cause to trueborn heirs, down the line. An exception is Ned, who is considered extremely honorable and his treatment of Jon is considered atypical by all.

For me, the line is still unclear between acknowledged and unacknowledged bastards. Everyone knows Ramsay is Roose's bastard son, and Ramsay even took the last name Bolton, but Catelyn says that Roose never acknowleged Ramsay, despite bringing him to his castle when his own trueborn heir died.

This makes me think there is some kind of paperwork involved-- something more than just standing up and saying "Mya is my daughter."

I think theres both acknowledging paternity, which is mostly a symbolic, but quite significant thing - the child knows for certain who the father is, and the father admits cheating on his wife/pre marital sex but theres nothing legally owned (though definetely morally expected) to the child, like Edric Storm and Jon Snow, and Lord Hornwoods son, and "Alayne" herself.

They're acknowledged noble blood, are cared for, fostered, trained. Catelyn think on this a few times too - decent men are expected to take quiet care of thier bastards (I think Cat is a pretty good barometer of mores and expectations, in though if not always in deed)

Then theres legalization - removing bastardy and turning the person ionto fair game in the line of sucession etc. The only mention of it I can think of is with Aegon IV bastards oin the sworn swords. The impression I got was that it's a legal measure that can only be carried out by the king himself, maybe with the agreement of the faith. (though maybe its every major lord or something) I can't remember if a similar measure was proposed with Lord Hornwoods son.

Vaugely remebered ADWD spoiler -

Isn't Jon legalized by Stannis so he can take winterfell?

Just to thoroughly exhaust the topic - Mya probably knows who her father is - it's common gossip in the vale, hard to beleive she herself hasn't heard it. And Edric has fond memories of Robert - he would play with him when he visited, and gave him a war hammer, etc.

On a different note - what the deal with Roberts bloody tapestries? ANy theories? They kepp being mentioned. Basically every scene set in the throne mentions them or thier absence, or their future presence, and even Dany has heard of them. At this point i'm guessing they have the directions to the stash of dragonglass hidden in the basement scribbled on the back.

[Daena the Defiant]

Jon, why would Anya Waynwood be anyone other than a Waynwood? I don't understand

I think he means that she was born into House Waynwood, instead of marrying into it. The fact that she was born a Waynwood is why she is a regnant lady in her own right, instead of a dowager. If she were a dowager lady, her eldest son would be the "real" Lord Waynwood.

[Anya, Vengeance Demon]

Isn't Jon legalized by Stannis so he can take winterfell?

No. Stannis offers at the end of A Storm of Swords, and Jon decides to turn him down and becomes Lord Commander of the Night's Watch. I don't think it's _too_ spoiler-ific to say that his decision stands as of the beginning of ADWD.

[knightsking]

Littlefinger showed up at the Vale with a bastard daugther from braavos who can't speak a word of bravosi but has a nothern accent, similar age to Sansa. I don't think he truly intended to fool anyone. Why would lady waynwood be concerned about the age of bastard child of littlefinger unless she suspected something was not right with her story. the jig is up.

Also Sansa can claim The North, Riverun bent the knee to the North (Rob) plus she is the grand daugther to hoster tully. if she marries Harry she will also have the Vale. Littlefinger told Ned he only wanted to be behind the scenes helping to rule not ruling everything himself, I don't think his goals have changed much they are the same since AGOT except he has more influence over sansa than he had with Ned.

[Gaston de Foix]

I think theres both acknowledging paternity, which is mostly a symbolic, but quite significant thing - the child knows for certain who the father is, and the father admits cheating on his wife/pre marital sex but theres nothing legally owned (though definetely morally expected) to the child, like Edric Storm and Jon Snow, and Lord Hornwoods son, and "Alayne" herself.

They're acknowledged noble blood, are cared for, fostered, trained. Catelyn think on this a few times too - decent men are expected to take quiet care of thier bastards (I think Cat is a pretty good barometer of mores and expectations, in though if not always in deed)

Then theres legalization - removing bastardy and turning the person ionto fair game in the line of sucession etc. The only mention of it I can think of is with Aegon IV bastards oin the sworn swords. The impression I got was that it's a legal measure that can only be carried out by the king himself, maybe with the agreement of the faith. (though maybe its every major lord or something) I can't remember if a similar measure was proposed with Lord Hornwoods son.

Vaugely remebered ADWD spoiler -

Isn't Jon legalized by Stannis so he can take winterfell?

Just to thoroughly exhaust the topic - Mya probably knows who her father is - it's common gossip in the vale, hard to beleive she herself hasn't heard it. And Edric has fond memories of Robert - he would play with him when he visited, and gave him a war hammer, etc.

On a different note - what the deal with Roberts bloody tapestries? ANy theories? They kepp being mentioned. Basically every scene set in the throne mentions them or thier absence, or their future presence, and even Dany has heard of them. At this point i'm guessing they have the directions to the stash of dragonglass hidden in the basement scribbled on the back.

I just had a thought about the tapestries. It's in the details thread- but I thought I'd summarize it here.

I'm not one hundred per cent sure about this theory but I'm working from the presumption that the tapestries were depictions of Robert, hunting (the actual description in AFFC is fascinatingly ambiguous).

This matters because if a Baratheon bastard either makes a claim to Storm End or the Iron Throne, then the tapestries are the closest one can come to demonstrating/denying resemblances.

To the obvious rejoinder that Stannis is Robert's legitimate heir and bastards don't inherit, I suspect this will come out long after Stannis' death.

In any event whatever you think of the wilder speculation,

I think there are plenty of subtle clues in AFFC specifically to do with tapestries that all show tapestries often depicted royals (Nymeria, in Arys Oakheart's POV as the Soiled Knight), Jaime in Castle Darry. So I think we can conclude 1) the tapestries are valuable inherently rather than as a device or a tool of espionage 2) the tapestries depict Robert in some guise. Thoughts?

[Bittersteel+]

I just had a thought about the tapestries. It's in the details thread- but I thought I'd summarize it here.

I'm not one hundred per cent sure about this theory but I'm working from the presumption that the tapestries were depictions of Robert, hunting (the actual description in AFFC is fascinatingly ambiguous).

This matters because if a Baratheon bastard either makes a claim to Storm End or the Iron Throne, then the tapestries are the closest one can come to demonstrating/denying resemblances.

To the obvious rejoinder that Stannis is Robert's legitimate heir and bastards don't inherit, I suspect this will come out long after Stannis' death.

In any event whatever you think of the wilder speculation,

That's exactly what I think of the tapestries myself. Only I think that this may be a one more evidence that Cersei's kids aren't throne heirs. LF seems to expect this question to become actual soon nad he obviously makes some preaparations... Of course they have the book with the descriptions of Great Houses, but a tapestry is by far more convincing if it comes to a trial...

[Natsu]

I agree with those who say that Littlefinger's plotting in this chapter is really lame. It looks increasingly that he is succeeding only by authorial fiat, and we are supposed to admire his cleverness, whilst in fact his plots are quite easy to see through. I am not the most perceptive reader, and if I did manage to see through Corbray's game during first reading, how come Lords Declarant didn't? OTOH, it was argued that at least Bronze Yohn did realize whatw as happening, but he had no way to stop it. Still I would like to see something more unexpected from the supposed master plotter.

The point of the plot is not that it's evident... It's the fact that the Lords Declarant were strong because they were together. The moment Lyn Corbray was bought, the unity of the group was destroyed. Even if it was evident (and remember it wasn't for all readers), there's nothing Bronze Yohn Royce could do about it. The moment other Lords (who, as many readers, didn't see the plot) started doubting, the ones who didn't trust Littlefinger had to swallow his victory.

Littlefinger's moves were very smart for various reasons. First of all, Lyn Corbray is a man with a bad reputation, and simple. The kind of man that some of the Lords (as some of the readers) wouldn't think so subtle as to go on with an elaborate plan like this. The kind of man who would have actually unseathed a sword to a parley. So, some of the lords Declarant believed the scenario. Then, Littlefinger didn't ask for much. Didn't ask for loyalty or power or money. He asked for a year. It's not much to ask, but it makes the offer reasonable, so some of the Lords Declarant doubt and think that, after all, no one wants blood. Even if Bronze Yohn sees right through the plot, he can't do anything about it. Lyn Corbray has sold them all, and the others are scared and don't really want to get into any trouble. If the others give up, Bronze Yohn has to give up too. So, even if unsubtle, the plan could work. It didn't get Petyr the love of the Lords, but he got him what he wanted: time to secure his position. And it didn't lose him anything, since Bronze Yohn is the only one who will still be his staunch enemy, and that was going to happen anyway.

[Horza]

Now, Bastard of Godsgrace I call on thee! Defend this comment you made five years and one week ago!