The Best Thing Jaime Could Do

[Benjen Snow]

I hate this thread, and this post is partly why.

Are we reading the same books here? In every Jaime chapter, love is mentioned. He did his most vile act out of compassion and kindness(He killed Aerys to stop the murder of innocents), and the fact that he can be a prick is completely understandable, seeing as when he does a favor to the world, it pays him back by giving him the finger. For 15 years he takes it, and excuse me if he's only loyal to his family, the only ones who don't hate him out of "honor". So yes, he attacked the person who is the main reason he's hated, to make sure his brother got out of that person's arms. But why is that a crime, to care for a brother, when the character "doesn't care about anyone but himself"?

Jaime is my favorite character in the Song, and mainly because he is a complex, emotional individual who finds himself lost after his greatest asset is taken away, and he realises that without it, his only course is to seek redemption for himself and others.

Don't give me this "Jaime is evil" crap that Martin has been feeding us through Ned's POV.

He is the best of his family. Tyrion might be kinder, but Jaime is a better person, all in all.

My GOD I hate it when I have these long rants.

And of course, he will die by the end of the series in redemption, though his children will die before him (Maggy the Frog's prophecy).

Tommen and Myrcella are going to die. My bet is Myrcella goes first.

DARKSTAR FTW!

I started this thread because I do find Jaime a compelling character. There is not question his King Slaying was well intended. There is also no question his crippling of Bran was an evil deed. But he has tried to better himself since and his character is exploring the themes of redemption and whether one can escape their past. IMHO Jaime is a better person than Tywin or Cersei. I don't feel I know enough about Kevan to compare them. His path takes more courage inmo than Lancel's but I still feel Tyrion is the best of the Lannister bunch. He has had to deal with more loathing than Jaime and still finds it in himself to help others without thought of return (designing the saddle for Bran, e.g.). I think you are right about his children not having long to live but in terms of Jaime's moral development I would wish he would find a way to be a father to his children despite the obvious difficulties of doing so outside of clandestinely.

[A wilding]

[Jaime] did his most vile act out of compassion and kindness(He killed Aerys to stop the murder of innocents), and the fact that he can be a prick is completely understandable, seeing as when he does a favor to the world, it pays him back by giving him the finger.

Westeros might think it his most vile act, but that is partly because, out of pique, he refused to explain himself. We the readers would tend to let him off that one and count other ones as being much worse. However I am not sure he was motivated purely by "compassion and kindness", I would say it was more his hatred and disgust for Aerys.

I would agree that Jaime is one of the best of his family, but the bar is rather low there. I would rank Kevan above him.

[Guest Other-in-law]

Die, I'd say and take his abominations with him.

Does that view apply to real life children who are the products of incest? Should they die too?

[Brother Wolf]

Being a father figure to Tommen would be a horrible idea, and would also draw suspicion. Someone else the raise the kid; in fact, now that Cersei is in jail, someone else is.

Why would it be a bad idea? The way I read it, Tommen needs a father figure more than ever right now. Why not Jaime? As for suspicion, who would be suspicious of the Commander of the KG taking the boy king, whose mother sits in prison, under his wing for a little tutelage?

Now, if Kevan Lannister or Mace Tyrell want to take up the mantle as father figure to Tommen, that would be OK, too, but I think with the story arc that Jaime's situation seems to be taking, he will begin to resent someone else trying to exert influence over his son.

At any rate, we may wonder if Jaime will come back to KL to help Cersei, but with his job at Riverrun completed and with his newfound devotion to his KG vows, I thinks he's heading back to KL for Tommen's sake, at the very least.

As I said above, I pity Tommen because he's in a shitty situation not of his own doing. I know the prophecy regarding Cersei, but I wouldn't object if GRRM finds a way to twist the words so that "shroud" doesn't actually mean "death" for Tommen.

[Sijjvra Visz]

I started to really 'like' Jamie when his POV's first appeared in ASOS. Before that, all we really knew about him was he killed his old king, he was handsome and a deadly fighter, he was arrogant, he was screwing his sister and he threw Bran out a window.

That doesn't make for someone you like in most cases. However once you start to get inside his head from his POVs, you quickly see there is a lot more to Jamie than arrogance and malice.

It is true he never felt fatherly towards Joff or his other children up to this point, as it clearly states Cersei kept him from getting to close to them on purpose so no one would suspect. She wouldn't even let him hold them when they were babies.

It's also clear he doesn't really care as much as the other Lannisters about money and power. He was willing to give all of that up if Cersei would run off and marry him. She wouldn't.

He -does- go back to save Brienne, and asks her to go find Sansa and get her to her relatives in one piece if she can.

He claims to have killed Aerys because Aerys was a crazy, sadistic king who was going to end up doing major damage to the kingdom and lots of people. He knew his vows. He knew the choice he had to make, and possibly knew he would be shunned because of it, but did it anyway.

That's not to excuse him from his faults. He IS arrogant, at least very much so at the start of the series. He would, at the beginning, probably do just about anything Cersei asked of him no matter how vile, he did push Bran from the window ledge. None of these things are particularly good guy quality, but like most people in the series, Jamie seems to be made of parts that are both good and bad. I think the good is overtaking the bad towards the latter part of the last two books. He actually WANTS to do a good job as Hand, and he's broken away from Cersei's games.

In the prophecy Cersei was told it says her children will die. That may or may not mean physically. We know GRRM likes his symbolic deaths as well as his literal ones. We will have to wait and see if Tommen really does die or just symbolically dies to Cersei's point of view.

[snake]

Does that view apply to real life children who are the products of incest? Should they die too?

Don't be silly. I don't advocate the death of people in real life. That doesn't mean I will be unhappy if someone mounts Tommen's and Myrcella's head alongside the heads of their father and mother. They're Lannisters and every time GRRM writes off a Lannister I smile.

[Kalbear]

I pretty much agree with snake, though I think his children should go into exile. The best thing that he can do is die.

However Bran chooses.

[shadowbinding shoe]

I agree with pita. He really has some good sides. His main weakness was always his sis in my opinion (I think we see in their relationship one of the reasons why incestuous relationships are so bad. He is too dependant on her. She filled his whole life since the time he was born. When she says frog he jumps. He had to have his long seperation from her in the tully prison [and other misfortunes] to start to become his own man)

He does explain why he never told anybody why he killed king Aerys. Even if he broke his vow to protect him he was still sworn to protect his kings' secrets. After he killed him he decided he should keep that part of his vow even though it blackened his name throughout the kingdom. He decided to make the best out of a bad deal and break his vows as little as he could (am I the only one who remembers that Jaimie also hated Aerys for abusing his wife/sister?)

[Bronn Stone]

I pretty much agree with snake, though I think his children should go into exile. The best thing that he can do is die.

However Bran chooses.

I think Jaime should suffer the punishment of Bran's choice, but I don't think Bran would choose death.

Assuming Jon dies and the LCOTNW slot is open, I think Bran would make a great First Builder to rebuild the Wall and that Jaime could live out his days as commander of the rebuilt Watch.

I don't think it will come to that though. I think Jaime is as doomed as Cersei.

[Mad Monkey]

Don't be silly. I don't advocate the death of people in real life. That doesn't mean I will be unhappy if someone mounts Tommen's and Myrcella's head alongside the heads of their father and mother. They're Lannisters and every time GRRM writes off a Lannister I smile.

They're not Lannisters; they're Waterses, bastards of King's Landing.

[Greywolf2375]

I think Jaime should suffer the punishment of Bran's choice, but I don't think Bran would choose death.

Assuming Jon dies and the LCOTNW slot is open, I think Bran would make a great First Builder to rebuild the Wall and that Jaime could live out his days as commander of the rebuilt Watch.

I don't think it will come to that though. I think Jaime is as doomed as Cersei.

If Bran had a vindictive bone in his body, I would think he would choose the treatment Vargo Hoat all ready gave Jaime - take his hand and at the time his whole existence. Bran has to live through not being what he wanted - I would have loved to see him make Jaime live through the same thing.

The best thing Jaime could do now? See the writing on the wall that people will find out about his kids and head for the Wall to join the NW.

[Guest Other-in-law]

Don't be silly. I don't advocate the death of people in real life. That doesn't mean I will be unhappy if someone mounts Tommen's and Myrcella's head alongside the heads of their father and mother. They're Lannisters and every time GRRM writes off a Lannister I smile.

Fair enough. The kids are going to die anyway, but I can see Jaime ending up on the Wall as easily as I can see him dead.

Tommen's kitten's deserve to die just as much as he does. They should install miniature spikes on traitor's walk just for Ser Pounce and his wicked henchkittens.

[Sijjvra Visz]

Fair enough. The kids are going to die anyway, but I can see Jaime ending up on the Wall as easily as I can see him dead.

Tommen's kitten's deserve to die just as much as he does. They should install miniature spikes on traitor's walk just for Ser Pounce and his wicked henchkittens.

NOOOOOO! NOT SER POUNCE!! he doesn't have the traitor's blood! He's not a traitor!That's Arya! She's the one with the trai...

oh wait.

[Starkess]

I don't know about Jaime taking the black. I mean, yeah, I think it'd be a good turn for his story arc, but at the same time, what does he really offer the NW? He still has a lot of work to do until he's a dece swordsman, he can't do archery without a hand, and he isn't that great of a strategy guy judging my his defeats. I mean, will he be a steward or a builder?

[Atreides]

He could probably teach swordfighting a little; he knows how he just can't do it with his left hand. And he's been concentrating a lot more on his tactics since the Whispering Wood, with his obsession about sentries and all. He's probably as cautious as Roose Bolton in battle now. But the wall needs everyone, and someone with the Kingslayer's reputation might boost morale as well. And Janos Slynt would have a friend

[The Pita]

My only wish is that Jaime will have a martyr's death.

All I know is that I will be crushed when it finally happens.

I think Tommen will be killed by the High Septon.

Cersei, after tons of questionings, will do the "Tyrion", and by that going

"I have sinned! I have plotted and schemed! I wanted my throne! I stayed Queen Regent! I did this! I did that! But I am innocent!"

I started to really 'like' Jamie when his POV's first appeared in ASOS. Before that, all we really knew about him was he killed his old king, he was handsome and a deadly fighter, he was arrogant, he was screwing his sister and he threw Bran out a window.

That doesn't make for someone you like in most cases. However once you start to get inside his head from his POVs, you quickly see there is a lot more to Jamie than arrogance and malice.

I actually liked him in AGoT and ACoK. I was thrilled when a friend who had already finished the series said that he gets a POV. I loved it when he throws Bran out of the window(though I was shocked), I loved it when he attacked Ned, his little speech. I loved that Catelyn chapter when she interrogates him. It made him seem like a god. In truth, there are no men like him. There is only him.

[Benjen Snow]

I actually liked him in AGoT and ACoK. I was thrilled when a friend who had already finished the series said that he gets a POV. I loved it when he throws Bran out of the window(though I was shocked), I loved it when he attacked Ned, his little speech. I loved that Catelyn chapter when she interrogates him. It made him seem like a god. In truth, there are no men like him. There is only him.

Liking Jaime for his somewhat seeking redemption is one thing but loving him for his wickedness and prowess at it is.... disturbing, imho.

[redcandle17]

I actually liked him in AGoT and ACoK. I was thrilled when a friend who had already finished the series said that he gets a POV. I loved it when he throws Bran out of the window(though I was shocked), I loved it when he attacked Ned, his little speech. I loved that Catelyn chapter when she interrogates him. It made him seem like a god. In truth, there are no men like him. There is only him.

I too loved him from AGoT. Other people can have Littlefinger; Jaime was my choice of pet psycho(along with Sandor) from the beginning. His scene with Catelyn in ACoK is one of my very favorite scenes in the series. He's a POW and chained to the wall in his enemy's dungeon and he's still cool.

[The Pita]

Liking Jaime for his somewhat seeking redemption is one thing but loving him for his wickedness and prowess at it is.... disturbing, imho.

Keep your vows, and be disturbed.

I always figured he was basically the best bad guy. Here was a bad guy motivated by love. Not power, riches, or control, but love. Here was what happens when good and bad are mixed in one. He was protective of his brother. If I would state a character as:

Loving, of both his sister and brother, and will go to risks to save them (attacking Ned, throwing Bran out the window when it was possible something bad could happen if he told someone)

A great warrior

Good looking

Dutiful to his father

Serves his king

Killed a man who was aroused by burning

Would you think he's a bad person?

People think he was evil because he did bad things to Starks.

But the Starks were the ones who would not hear his words.

The Starks endangered the things he loved most in his life.

The Starks were doing things they should not have (Kidnapping his brother, spying on him and his sister)

Why are people annoyed because they can't see without biase?

[Godot]

Would you think he's a bad person?

People think he was evil because he did bad things to Starks.

But the Starks were the ones who would not hear his words.

The Starks endangered the things he loved most in his life.

The Starks were doing things they should not have (Kidnapping his brother, spying on him and his sister)

Why are people annoyed because they can't see without biase?

I like Jaime as much as the next guy, but maybe people think he's a bad person because he fucked his sister, fathered her children, and tossed a seven year old boy out of a window.