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The Prince

Westeros M2:TW mod- Suggestions

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Coursework? You aren't from UK too, are you Marcus?

BTW, AD stands for Anno Domini (seriously, the mod is called Anno Domini :P ). I am being serious. Do you need another skinner sort of thing. I'd be willing to learn.

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Depends on your skill level. You're welcome to make an attempt at it. The problem is there's just no point skinning low quality stuff, as it'll just have to be done over.

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After about 12 hours of unspecific errors and tedious debugging, we've finally got the Eddard outcome events implemented. Three random events that leads to different effects, complete with beheading, releasing, and sent to the wall. Look forward to it in the beta, though we still got a long way to go... :P

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Well done Aeleron! Woot!

I'm gonna have a look at the skinning tutorials, but most of my work (to begin with anyway) will be too low quality. I may improve with time though. BTW, what is going to be included in the first BETA when it comes out?

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OK bloodlines for the Northern families...

Most of the houses will be usual. Here are some irregular ones

Boltons - -1 Loyalty +1 Dread

Cassels - +2 Loyalty

Umber - +1 Hitpoints, +2 Loyalty

Manderly - +1 Loyalty, +5% to Tax

Mormont - (larger chance of getting Secretly Female?) +1 Loyalty

Reed - Larger chance of getting ambushing traits...

Stark - +2 Authority, +3 Loyalty

I'll do the rest later.

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Storm, I'm not sure if adding all the minor houses would be practical, since we only really know the Northern ones and their characteristics. For the numerous houses down south, we'll at best get placeholder traits that just boost some tax, but there will be too many as well. It would be better IMO to limit the family traits to major houses, we could still add one or two interesting houses to each faction like the Boltons or the Freys. Besides, title ancillaries already sort of depict the small houses, so say a general holding the White Harbour title will get the effects you mentioned for Manderly.

PS I realized my argument can be applied to the titles too. I guess we can size down on them if they prove to be too much trouble...

Some continued ideas for traits:

Crippled, one-handed, paralyzed, sickly

Social status: Lord, Ser/Knight, Commoner/Humble Origins..etc

Pastimes: hunting/hawking, jousting, breeding :rolleyes:

Body sizes :mellow: : Mountain that rides, obese, skinny, etc

ancillaries:

Unique merchandise, silks and perfumes for princesses

Poisons for assassins: Tears of Lys, the Strangler and "poisoned weapon" for the Viper.

Magic: The Reeds with Greensight

Direwolves/Animals for warg characters

Needle is a must. Let's see who gets to marry Arya :fence:

Valyrian Swords: Dawn, Heart's Bane, Ice, Longclaw, Oathkeeper, Widow's Wail.

I think we can give Eddard Ice, then set triggers that once he gets killed then Oathkeeper and Widow will be unlocked, or maybe just script them to go to Joff and Jaime a few turns later.

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Yeah. We also need some system a la Famous Swords like in DLV. So when you kill someone who has one, your character takes it, unless he already gets one.

BTW, Aeleron, would Jaime be in prison when we start? If he is not, you would need to figure out how to script it to go to Jaime when he is freed.

I think that we should just have the named houses that are famous

Great Houses (+1 Authority + 1 Loyalty unless specified otherwise)

Greyjoy - +10% to looting

Stark - +3 Loyalty, +2 Chivalry

Tully - Not sure? Siggestions

Arryn - +3 Chivalry

Tyrell - +1 to Cavalry Command,

Martell - +1 to Infantry Command

Lannister - more chance of getting handsome traits, +5% to tax collection

Baratheon - not sure? Suggestions

Lesser Houses (+1 Loyalty unless specified otherwise)

Bolton - +1 Dread, -1 Loyalty

Frey - -1 Loyalty, +10% TaX

Clegane - [Larger chance of being bigger a la Aeleron's above post]

Dayne - +1 Chivalry (chance of getting SOTM weapon)

Hightower - [more chance of getting maester ancillaries]

More suggestions for very well known houses?

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We'll have to determine everyone's starting location after we get the map geographically correct. Also, there's no point to having a bloodline if there isn't a member of that house on the map.

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I'm a little confused here. What is it that we're trying to enumerate? It seems that we're compiling a list of bonuses inherent in each great house... with the possibility that these benefits would be extended to any general in that location. Every general that is associated with that faction gains those bonuses as base modifiers, extended by whatever they've picked up over time (or is specific to that character). Am I understanding this correctly?

If I am, I think we're going off track.

First, I don't know that I agree with the bonuses assigned. The Starks were neither that chivalrous, nor that loyal. Robb himself was very honorable, but Bolton was significantly less so... and as for loyalty, Bolton and Karstark stand as clear examples to the contrary... there are others, but we can get to those later.

Second, the problem is that the houses are *not* monolithic entities. The Tyrells were known for their 'southron' chivalry... but Randyll Tarly is a Tyrell bannerman, and he is more deserving of dread than chivalry. Tywin Lannister was not chivalrous... though he's not one to inspire dread either (with the whole, once they bend the knee, help them to stand). Joffrey would have lots of dread, but low command. The Royces would be chivalrous... Robert Arryn and Lyn Corbray, not so much. The Cleganes were abnormally large, but none of their captains (Raff the Sweetling, Shitmouth, etc.) were. So if we're trying to assign traits common to an entire faction, it's not really accurate.

Third, some of these create double-counting issues. The Tyrells are big on cavalry because they're wealthy and cavalry is expensive... We don't have any evidence that Tyrell cavalry is any more capable than Baratheon or Stark cavalry. It may be better equipped, but that's reflected in the ability to field and afford heavier cavalry units... there is *nothing* that I am aware of that suggests that the Tyrells have better cavalry commanders. To do so effectively double-counts, and makes them more effective with cavalry than the facts call for. I'd be more inclined to give Robb Stark a bonus to cav command... he's at least won a battle using only cavalry (Whispering Wood).

In the end, I would rather that we simply assigned a few traits to each individual general, rather than try to create 'faction' traits. They're simply too inaccurate and they cause weird problems... like Jaime Lannister with a bonus to tax collection, Mace Tyrell with a bonus to cavalry command, and Gerold 'Attempted Child-Murderer' Dayne, Arya 'guard-killer' Stark, and Robert 'Make him fly' Arryn with bonuses to chivalry.

Other notes... Making Valyrian Swords viable is a stretch... at most, they'd up the attack value of the General by a point or so (if we can do that *without* boosting the stats of the bodyguards, that'd be more accurate). Given that that's the case, Needle is *really* hard to justify. It's just a sword... normal, castle-forged steel. It's named, but it's not particularly different than those used by other units. Of course, that's assuming we can even include Arya as a general...

Now that we've got Eddard Stark as a component in a variable start, it seems that we'd be going with a start right after Robert Baratheon's death. In which case, Jaime Lannister would *not* be a prisoner... he'd have just left King's Landing for Casterly Rock, to join a Lannister army that would later lay siege to Riverrun.

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MY there's a few things I'd like you to look at in the map thread. As for this he's allocating bloodline traits, a la BBB. Although he does some to be somewhat off track. The idea behind them is basically to track the genealogy (sp) of children and so on. As this mod mostly likely will have a short time frame, we may have no use for them. The mod simply won't span 500 years like vanilla M2.

To further explain this though, it's not based by faction, but by House. When he says "Stark" he means Eddard, Robb & Brandon. (Rickon having to be excluded as M2 won't allow more than 4 children). If you notice, he's included a number of lesser houses too. I'll give an example:

Say the Stark player marries Sansa off to... for the sake of the example, Lancel Lannister. Sansa bears the Stark bloodline trait, and Lancel bears the Lannister trait. Any children they bear will have the bloodlines of both houses, and will inherit the bonuses and penalties from each. In this, we can include the minor houses. So we'd have traits for all the major ones, plus one for each existing house. So there'd be a Kettleblack bloodline, Bolton, Tarly, etc. But like I said, since the mod will have such a short timeframe, I doubt there will be many new additions as far as children go... We'll have to see.

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Thanks for the explanation Marcus... I had a feeling that that was the justification... which is why I prefaced it with my assumptions. It's an interesting way to deal with new family members. I'll have to ponder this a bit.

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I see your point MY, and so did the makers of BBB.

The aim of bloodline traits and title ancillaries is only to add roleplay elements to the game. BBB tried to minimize the impact on gameplay by reducing the effect of bloodlines and titles; most families only get loyalty bonus and titles just give more tax. Only some specific renown families or cities have special bonuses: Eastern factions are (slight) better horsemen, titles to large port cities gain trade..etc. It's only a starter basic skill boost, so even the supposed chivalrous Starks and Arryns could train their family to be dreadful murderers.

Suggestion to the blood traits:

Greyjoy - Looting is fine, maybe some dread.

Stark - Loyalty and Chiv works, but +1 for each is enough I think.

Tully - err farm output bonus?

Arryn - again, lower the amount,. To differ from Stark I say +2 Chiv

Tyrell - farm bonus seem fitting for them too. And some chiv wouldn't hurt.

Martell - This is a hard one. Fiery temper doesn't mean they're better fighters.

Lannister - rich and handsome, I concur.

Baratheon - I dunno about Baratheons either. We don't have many of them left anyway, does Joff even count? I'd prefer giving him a Lannister trait myself.

For the lesser houses, I don't know, after looking through the generals list, I'm not sure if we have enough of them to justify making new traits for them. Like Marcus pointed out, bloodlines are mainly for identifying later gnerations, but we won't have many new people in our timespan.

Oh and on Valyrian swords, they only add to the general's own health i think, so it shouldn't be too big of a fuss. Arya's a princess, and Needle's her item anc, maybe -1 charm.

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My thoughts at this point on the bloodlines...

Greyjoy- Dread

Stark - Command, maybe Loyalty

Tully - Chivalry

Arryn - Loyalty (negative)

Tyrell - Chivalry

Martell - Dread

Lannister - Dread, perhaps Command

Baratheon (Storm's End) - Chivalry

Baratheon (Dragonstone) - Command

Baratheon (King's Landing) - Dread

Comments -

The Greyjoys clearly have a knack for inspiring dread. Balon, Euron, Victarion, Theon... they're all more than willing to kill in order to express their dominance... which is the essence of dread.

The Starks - Yes, Robb and Eddard were well-loved by their allies... but that didn't keep Bolton in line, nor did it stay Karstark's need for revenge. If anything strikes me about the Stark children, generally, is that Eddard trained them well for what he imagined they would be facing. Robb was well-prepared to lead, as was Jon. They were taught to be good leaders... and both were. That's what I see for their bloodline... a talent for command.

Tully - The main thing that we see with the only extant leader of the Tullys, Edmure, is that he's got a soft heart... he truly wants the best for his people, and that's going to carry over to his kids. Chivalry bonus to the Tullys.

Arryn - Lysa and Robert Arryn don't really inspire anything. The best we can do is to look to Jon Arryn, and think Loyalty or Chivalry... but as he's not around to teach little Robert Arryn, I don't know if that's appropriate. Instead, Lysa doesn't inspire dread, but disloyalty... and perhaps that's a balance for the Vale's strong armies and defensive position... loyalty problems.

Tyrell - Willas, Garlan the Gallant, Loras, even Mace... all about Chivalry. This is an obvious fit. They're not great farmers, but they are blessed with great farmland... no need to double the effect.

Martell - Dread. Doran worked hard to appear benign, and Arienne doesn't hold enough power to be noticed yet, but look at the rest of the Martells... Oberyn and the Sand Snakes. These are people who inspire fear. If there's one feature that's common to the Martells, it's that ability. Even Doran can do it, in his own way... his own daughter was terrified of him in the Princess in the Tower chapter.

Lannister - Dread... easily, and Command. Look at Tywin, Jaime, Cersei, and Tyrion. They *all* inspire fear. Add in Kevan Lannister (and subtract Cersei), and they're all capable, well trained leaders... and even Cersei can lead people (though she leads them into disaster). For Tywin and Jaime, Command is obvious, but Tyrion is quite capable as we see at the Blackwater, and among his clansmen. For Dread, think of how Tywin deals with the Reynes and Castameres, Tyrion in the ADwD spoiler chapter, and Jaime with Edmure Tully in AFfC (... With a trebuchet!).

Baratheon (Storm's End) - Renly, if he passes along anything, will be his Chivalric notions. Copper, remember?

Baratheon (Dragonstone) - Stannis, is iron. He's the only one who frightens the Lannisters in King's Landing. He's got few men, but he's a very capable commander. Like Iron.

Baratheon (King's Landing) - If Joffrey procreates, he's passing along the Lannister lines... Dread. Even if Lannister gets some Command, Joffrey's refused to learn that lesson... so just Dread.

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OK, point taken Aeleron, Marcus and MY. I think that we should still have legendary swords a la DLV. The more famous ones should give the wielder's authority (look, this is Ned Stark's sword. I am Joffery Baratheon. Hear me roar! Grr. I cut his head off, so I'm bigger than him. =P ) And Valyrian steel blades should heighten your general's hitpoints

Ice - +1 Law (symbol of Ned Stark's justice and so forth etc.) +1 Authority.

Dawn - +2 Chivalry, +1 Authority

And, btw, in accordance with the traitlines that Aeleron pointed out, we should have the following traits

Big (Puny, Small, Big, Giant, Mountain that Rides) etc.

Crippled/Ill (Seriously Ill, One handed, Wounded)

Weapon Skill (maybe, what do you guys think?) (Stick them with the pointy end, useless, skilled with weapons, blademaster etc.)

Rank (Knight, Bannerman, General, Warden of the ...)

Warg Animals for the Starks

Unique equipment for various units (Manticore Venom (RV), Poisons (don't think we need lots of different types, just poisons of varying strengths, )

Valyrian Blades + Lightbringer = Dawn

Crowns (Crown of the North etc.)

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Alright...a little headsup.

I'm writing up the traits slowly, and I'm finding the descriptions for traits the most time-consuming. Would appreciate it if some of you lurkers out there could show off some literal prowess for the benefit of the mod. Don't be offended if your brilliant idea don't get adopted though... :P If you really want to read your piece ingame you could very easily put them in via the export_vnv.txt in the text folder anyway (but you need some mod tools first to get the file.

A pileup for the current traits

Bloodlines:

Greyjoy Stark Tully Arryn Tyrell Martell Lannister B-Renly, B-Stan, B-Joff

(I think it's alright making them separate houses, it's not like they even acknowledge their family status anymore and they all have very distinctive personalities.)

Handicap:

One-Handed, Severely wounded, Crippled (diseases were covered in BBB )

Body Sizes:

Giant, Mountain-that-Rides, Obese

(any smaller seems redundant...eg. what effects would "trim" grant? or "bony"? maybe another -1 charm for Arya Horseface ;)

Social status:

Humble Origins, Knight, Kingsguard, Lord

(I dunno about the Warden thing, it could be an office ancillary I guess...

Weapon Skill:

StickThemWithPointyEnd, NoStomachToFight, MethodicalFighter, BladeMaster, LegendarySwordsman (I know, corny...ideas welcome

Pastimes:

Hunter, Hawker, Breeder (we could include the censored version too.

Individual Traits:

Kingslayer, Kinslayer, Warg, Imp, Female (Obviously welcome more suggestions)

I'll try to do some Ancillary next.

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Thanks for including the weapon skill bit Aeleron. We could also utilize a rank system? I dunno. Body size should stretch into diminuitive and normal. Normal does what it says on the label. Diminuitive (*cough* crannogmen *cough*)...

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There really is no point of having a "Normal" size trait. And rank system of what...?

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Rank is in, I have completed all four of its trait level: HumbleOrigins Knight Kingsguard and Lord. (didn't include the career ranking from DLV because I personally couldn't undertand it at all... if that's what you're promoting maybe you could give us some pointers?)

Diminutive for crannogmen, alright I'll add that.

BTW, anyone up for the description job? Don't need alot, 1-2 liners for each would work. Mainly we want ancillary descriptions, since traits are mostly finished. You're still welcome to write up descriptions for traits you're really passionate about though. You can find the ancillary list a few pages back.

Here's an example:

trait Physical_Flawless which titles a character "the Handsome" says on its description:

"There is no chance this man's portrait will be flattering, no matter how deft the artist."

something like that. Oh and Ancs work just the same.

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I'll do descriptors. Firstly, I need to know what descriptions you need? And I was referring to Aeleron's rank version, not DLV's.

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