Flayed Man Posted October 31, 2007 Share Posted October 31, 2007 Well, the problem is that the first two seasons were strong, and the latest one was not. The first season, IMO, was the strongest, and it went downhill from there (Season two was great, dont get me wrong, but we had the baltar magical cure episode which was... scarily bad). Although, Season two was pretty fucking good. Its hard to say. My biggest doubts come from the fact that it was last season that was bad. IMHO the writers fscked themselves over by making everyone Cylons - if they get to randomly choose any character they please to be Cylons, they undermine the basic premise that gave the show its dramatic tension in season 1. 30,000 remaining humans fleeing from overwhelming force - that I could get into. But when few of them are human any more... well, what do I care about Cylons hunting Cylons? A character dies? So what, they'll wake up again on a basestar. In season 1, the writers usually remembered the basic premise of the show & kept actual conflict going between the humans & Cylons. By halfway through season 2 & definitely by season 3 they'd completely deflated the show & reduced it to serial episodes of squabbling pseudo-mystical zealots & characters only a basestar metal womb could love. IMHO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Innominandum Posted November 1, 2007 Share Posted November 1, 2007 well, what do I care about Cylons hunting Cylons? A character dies? So what, they'll wake up again on a basestar. Where do you get the idea that the final five are able to resurrect ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sad King Billy Posted November 1, 2007 Share Posted November 1, 2007 Where do you get the idea that the final five are able to resurrect ? Have I missed something where they say "the rules don't apply to these"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Relic Posted November 1, 2007 Share Posted November 1, 2007 I also don't understand the "issue" over the nuke that blew up Cloud 9. They know it was the one that was in Baltar's lab. Baltar was kinda busy with a whole lot of stuff that had him be away from his lab around that time. Obviously, the miliary should have been guarding Baltar's lab, but I don't see it as anywhere close to not believable that they weren't able to. How many nukes did they mention having in season 1? 8? I think that was the number. So you got 8 nukes, and 50k people. And the nuke gets lost. Umm....right. Totally believable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paddy Posted November 1, 2007 Share Posted November 1, 2007 How many nukes did they mention having in season 1? 8? I think that was the number. So you got 8 nukes, and 50k people. And the nuke gets lost. Umm....right. Totally believable. How isn't it? I mean, they say right out in that episode that they know it was the one in Baltar's lab that was used. What does the number of nukes that they have have to do with anything? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Relic Posted November 1, 2007 Share Posted November 1, 2007 What does the number of nukes that they have have to do with anything? becuz they spend 15 minutes or so talking bout how limited their supply of nukes was before giving one to baltar for his cylon detector or whatever he was working on. And becuz if you have 8 of something really valuable you'd think it wouldnt get "whoops lost." whatever, it makes sense to you, thats cool. doesnt to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
koudoulis Posted November 1, 2007 Share Posted November 1, 2007 Razor DVDscreener has leaked on the internet. i just wanted to warn you before you go somewhere and get awfully spoilered. i will wait for the actuall DVD though. if season 4 starts on april i need to contain myself as mush as possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paddy Posted November 1, 2007 Share Posted November 1, 2007 becuz they spend 15 minutes or so talking bout how limited their supply of nukes was before giving one to baltar for his cylon detector or whatever he was working on. And becuz if you have 8 of something really valuable you'd think it wouldnt get "whoops lost." whatever, it makes sense to you, thats cool. doesnt to me. It doesn't have to make sense. It has to be reasonably plausible given the context and setup of the show. A comic about a kid who gains Superpowers because he got bitten by a radioactive/genetically-engineered spider makes zero sense, but it's plausible within the context and set up of Spiderman. We know that there wasn't anyone guarding the warhead, because Baltar was able to get it out of the lab at all (and we never saw anyone guarding it anyway, that I know of). It's also pretty well established that the military are really stretched thin at the moment with everything they have to do, it makes sense to me that they'd have a whole load of places where things are much more lax than they'd like them to be. I'm not trying to convince you, and none of this matters, of course. It's just that I've heard this critique a few times, and I can't fathom it. It's a perfectly fine plot device and there's certainly plenty of problematic things in BSG that are more legitimate grievances to focus on than this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Relic Posted November 1, 2007 Share Posted November 1, 2007 dude... he took a nuke off of the capital ship of the fleet. Adama didnt trust Baltar since season 1, no one really did, you'd think they would be more careful with something so valuable to them. thats how i look at it, at least. I was a huge fan of the first season of that show but by the end of season 2 i found myself rolling my eyes, unsatisfied with the direction it had taken. and that one example is just a small reason, out of many. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalbear Posted November 1, 2007 Share Posted November 1, 2007 No, it's implausible. The cylons have already shown the ability to infiltrate, no one knows how many there are and there were models that were not discovered yet. That Baltar was able to sneak it out at all is idiotic, but that they lose the ability to detect it after showing that ability (in the first ep, 33)is beyond idiotic and implausible. Baltar sneaking it out is not great but can be explained (or better yet, shown) but their losing track of it for months afterwards is stupid. Also, Baltar not getting into more trouble for it is equally stupid. It was an artsy move that didn't have a lot of plausibility to begin with and was wrapped up way too quickly. Gina's whole storyline needed to be developed a lot more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paddy Posted November 1, 2007 Share Posted November 1, 2007 he took a nuke off of the capital ship of the fleet. Adama didnt trust Baltar since season 1, no one really did, you'd think they would be more careful with something so valuable to them. But... they'd been trusting him with it since episode 5 in season one. Is it so much more believable that they'd trusted him with it then? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Relic Posted November 1, 2007 Share Posted November 1, 2007 No, it's implausible. The cylons have already shown the ability to infiltrate, no one knows how many there are and there were models that were not discovered yet. That Baltar was able to sneak it out at all is idiotic, but that they lose the ability to detect it after showing that ability (in the first ep, 33)is beyond idiotic and implausible. Baltar sneaking it out is not great but can be explained (or better yet, shown) but their losing track of it for months afterwards is stupid. yeah i forgot to mention the fact that they know how to track nukes, but didnt know one was in Cloud 9. Or in the shuttle Baltar used to get from BSG to Cloud 9. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Relic Posted November 1, 2007 Share Posted November 1, 2007 But... they'd been trusting him with it since episode 5 in season one. Why was it so believable that they'd trusted him with it then? they found him necessary but from what we are shown and told Adama didnt trust him AT ALL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Relic Posted November 1, 2007 Share Posted November 1, 2007 Of course, the problem would be how the cylons found new caprica. They found it becuz God made Baltar fall in love with Headsix, then had him run into Gina, giving her the nuke so that she could explode cloud 9 thus bringing the cylons to new caprica thus reuniting Baltar with Six, thus getting him on the ship, thus thus thus ack blergh blah. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalbear Posted November 1, 2007 Share Posted November 1, 2007 See, I could totally see Baltar sneaking the nuke off, coming up with some odd yet brilliant plan to disguise it's emissions and sneak away from the guards. That's all possible given what we know of Baltar...but that's not the sort of thing you want to do as an offscreen showcase. That's a big event, and you need to see how that happened and explain why it works in the context of the show. They didn't do that, and they left Gina totally undeveloped (or rather, developed on the cutting room floor). Because of both of those things and combined with Baltar's malfeasance, it didn't ring true to me. And really, Baltar should have gotten into a ton of trouble about this. The newly elected president accidentally lost a nuclear weapon that ended up being used to kill about 1/20th of the existing human population? Uh, no. Sorry, he didn't win by that much to begin with. He'd be out of there within a day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Relic Posted November 1, 2007 Share Posted November 1, 2007 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paddy Posted November 1, 2007 Share Posted November 1, 2007 No, it's implausible. The cylons have already shown the ability to infiltrate, no one knows how many there are and there were models that were not discovered yet. That Baltar was able to sneak it out at all is idiotic, but that they lose the ability to detect it after showing that ability (in the first ep, 33)is beyond idiotic and implausible. Baltar sneaking it out is not great but can be explained (or better yet, shown) but their losing track of it for months afterwards is stupid. Also, Baltar not getting into more trouble for it is equally stupid. It was an artsy move that didn't have a lot of plausibility to begin with and was wrapped up way too quickly. Gina's whole storyline needed to be developed a lot more. They don't lose any ability. We know that the detection ability was very limited, because Starbuck had to interrogate and torture Leoben to find out where the (non existent) nuke he'd hidden was in episode 6. They can't just immediately know where all the warheads are. In 33 they only had one ship to check, so it was very much faster. They'd also have to know that it was missing for months, for that to be stupid, but we already know that they didn't. They all thought it was still in his lab, and it's perfectly plausible that no one else (legitimately) went in there apart from Baltar and there's no reason for him to get in trouble for it. I'm pretty sure that it would have been the military's responsibility to guard it, not his (he had a few other things on his plate). Yes, the fact that Cylons are everywhere means they should have had better/more guards, but I just can't see how that's so terribly implausible. One explanation would be that they did have guards, only the lab was always locked, no one went in there and the warhead was sneaked out some other way. Baltar could always say that the last time he went in there the bomb was there. And, yes, while they distrust him to an extent, that's no reason to believe he'd be part of blowing up a friggin ship. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalbear Posted November 1, 2007 Share Posted November 1, 2007 They don't lose any ability. We know that the detection ability was very limited, because Starbuck had to interrogate and torture Leoben to find out where the (non existent) nuke he'd hidden was in episode 6. They can't just immediately know where all the warheads are. In 33 they only had one ship to check, so it was very much faster.That's because they had to do it within a specific time and can't scan every ship in the fleet instantly. If they have, say, 9 months it's not so hard. Let's put it this way: is it unreasonable to assume that the BSG scans all ships as a matter of course as it's flying around to avoid the kind of issue that 33 had happen, given that it could be done from a fairly long range? Or is it more reasonable to assume that they wouldn't bother ever scanning for a nuke on a ship? They don't have to know that anything's missing; all they have to do is be scanning for nuclear weapons like they do regularly. Is it reasonable to assume that the newly elected president who was responsible for a nuclear device and let it go rogue would simply skate away without any repercussions when that nuclear device blows up? Are humans that forgiving? Is the BSG human that forgiving? He doesn't have to be part of anything; all he has to do is show gross incompetence in letting a nuclear weapon out of his hands. And what, he couldn't notice that his cylon detector wasn't working? Come on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Innominandum Posted November 1, 2007 Share Posted November 1, 2007 Have I missed something where they say "the rules don't apply to these"? I'd say anything said about them since they were first mentioned... but I suppose it could be understood differently. They seemed very different to me from the beginning. Just to give an example, we know the first seven were models created between the wars, not based on actual humans and that this technology didn't exist during the first war. While we know that one of the final five is (or is in the body of) someone who existed during that first war. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Werthead Posted November 1, 2007 Author Share Posted November 1, 2007 Have I missed something where they say "the rules don't apply to these"? SPOILER: BSGNot in the show, but in an interview RDM said that the Final Five are fundamentally different to the other Cylon models. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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