Mixed Martial Arts - Rashad Evans vs Michael Bisping

[Rockroi]

The number of so called upsets lately have me wondering if the name fighters are actually as good as they're made out to be or just over hyped.

Its hard to say. The nature of MMA fighting is that at any moment you can just lose. The last two "hyped" fighters were Cro-Cop and Lidell and they both lost in similar fashion- quick strikes that just took them out.

UFC is going to have this problem contunually- the turn over in Champions and big-named fighters is always going to be there. A giu can be on the top of the mountain one minute- the best fighter in the world -and be beaten the next minute. THat was what happened here. Lidell had REAL potensial to be the "break through" star of MMA- he was on an episode of Entourage; he was featured in ESPN the Magazine and on its web page; he even did an ESPN interview for SportsCenter. To now have the guy LOSE (in less-than-impressive fassion) is a blow to UFC and its ability to market its own fighters.

Lidell WAS fighting this fight to cement a legacy that would enhance his marketability- ie: he has defeated every man he has ever been in the ring with. And the market MMA and UFC cares about are NOT dedicated fans who buy the PPV events. The Market UFC craves are the "casaul" fans who will watch a fight because they know the face, not necessarily the sport. (Mike Tyson and Oscar De La Hoya draws). There are more of THOSE people than there are MMA fans.

As popular as UFC and MMA are, there is a ceiling here, and UFC is rapidly approaching it. If UFC cannot find a personality to break through to the mainstreem fans, it faces the danger of becoming forgotten- ie: the champ turn-over is so constant that people cannot follow (or bother to care) about the sport. This also says nothing about the aging personalities. The last three big sensations (Ortiz, Lidell, Cro-Cop) all lost hard. Cotour is now the biggest name, but he's in his forties.

[Horus Ex Machina]

As popular as UFC and MMA are, there is a ceiling here, and UFC is rapidly approaching it. If UFC cannot find a personality to break through to the mainstreem fans, it faces the danger of becoming forgotten- ie: the champ turn-over is so constant that people cannot follow (or bother to care) about the sport. This also says nothing about the aging personalities. The last three big sensations (Ortiz, Lidell, Cro-Cop) all lost hard. Cotour is now the biggest name, but he's in his forties.

There are a lot of people, myself included, who say that Rampage can be this type of personality. If you heard him during the post-fight presser (the first attended by the major media) he was a major hit. The guy is a comedian with gloves. Now there was the random t-word thrown about on some of the MMA forums I've looked at. To that I say this; if Quentin Jackson is a thug then so is everyone competing in MMA, boxing, kickboxing, whatever. He is a legit member of a legit sport and I have never heard of him insulting anyone or getting in trouble with the law since he has been in Pride or the UFC. If he can get more people to laugh at his jokes and build up a following like he wanted to before this fight, he can be the next big name.

That said he has to prove that he really is back. He's won 5 straight now but this one is the only really impressive one out of all of them. If he can beat Hendo; doesn't really have to dominate b/c considering the opponent it should be entertaining anyway; then beat Liddell again (which he should) or Wanderlei (a bit more problematic but doable) he could be a face to be recognised in this sport. DW for any faults he may have, knows how to market personalities. He did it with Tito and Chuck. And he has already stated that he looks forward to exposing the MMA fan populace to Jackson's persona.

Other possible future superstars are guys like BJ Penn, GSP, and Shogun. But they must all win and hold onto titles to establish themselves. No more tiring in late rounds (BJ), or flukey KO's (Rush). Karo Parisyan is another guy. Think of the following that Diego Sanchez could have in the Mexican-American community. Not to mention that the video of him training with Oscar de la Hoya doesn't hurt.

[Liffguard]

Think of the following that Diego Sanchez could have in the Mexican-American community

I doubt we'll be hearing from him in the MMA world in the near future. He caught a pretty major staph infection in his leg and is currently recovering. He'll be back at some point but I doubt he'll be competitive for a while.

[Young Wolf]

No more tiring in late rounds (BJ)

Hence why I said he's a fucking waste of talent. His skill is phenomenal, he just doesnt come into matches in the shape of GSP or Hughes. If he did, he'd be unstoppable.

YW

[Horus Ex Machina]

It seems that DW himself said that he would not be running Pride. We'll see about that.

Back on the subject of potential MMA superstars, I'll miss Shogun's soccer kicks. If the Fertittas were wise they would have left that alone. The variety kept that show fresh.

Anyhow, with whatever deal DW made with ESPN to finally get coverage on Sportscenter, a few Shogun highlight reel kicks should be enough to dispell the "unskilled" myth about MMA.

[DeliriousEdd]

Very happy with the results of the Rampage/Liddell match though I would not have predicted a first round KO by any stretch. Not that I thought Rampage was dumb but I was surprised by his strategy to make Liddell the aggressor.

I hadn't heard about Sanchez's setback. That's too bad, I was looking forward to him fighting for a title sometime soon. He's maybe not the most skilled MMA fighter but his conditioning and effort are second to none. His victory over Karo is a prime example. He has a real chance in any fight that goes into the later rounds.

[zelticgar]

Based on Karo's performance last weekend Sanchez;s win seems even more significant. I wonder how much the staff infection effected him against kozchek. I suspect it would not have made a big difference. Koz does not match up well with Sanchez. He is not a real banger. I guess we'll see how good Kozchek is when he goes against GSP.

[Mike]

If UFC cannot find a personality to break through to the mainstreem fans, it faces the danger of becoming forgotten- ie: the champ turn-over is so constant that people cannot follow (or bother to care) about the sport.

I'm pretty much a noob when it comes to this stuff, but couldn't Fedor Emelianenko be that guy? Maybe he doesn't have a glowing personality, but from what I've seen of him, the guy exudes badass, and that worked for Mike Tyson. I think people would tune in just to see how bad he destroys folks.

[Caliban]

Slightly off topic, but nonetheless interesting. How badly would Lennox Lewis destroy Rampage Jackson? Would Rampage be able to survive? Or would Lennox merely kill him, quickly and efficiently? Would Rampage live? Or die?

[Horus Ex Machina]

Slightly off topic, but nonetheless interesting. How badly would Lennox Lewis destroy Rampage Jackson? Would Rampage be able to survive? Or would Lennox merely kill him, quickly and efficiently? Would Rampage live? Or die?

Outside of Rampage's dominance of Liddell I do question his ability to hang on to the belt for too long. He is not the best LH that distinction belongs to Mauricio Shogun Rua, who very nearly ended Rampage's life in a Pride ring.

So to answer your question, while I am a fan of Lennox Lewis, Shogun Rua has the skills to destroy him. Rampage probably doesn't. Neither does Chuck. Maybe Wandy could take him the distance, he has fought decently against a heavyweight in Cro-Cop.

Anyone who wants to make a comparison of standing skills between boxing and MMA should take a look at some of the Chuteboxe guys and start from there.

[Stego]

Cal,

Sorry mate, but Lennox Lewis is a chump from a chumps game.

[Liffguard]

Slightly off topic, but nonetheless interesting. How badly would Lennox Lewis destroy Rampage Jackson? Would Rampage be able to survive? Or would Lennox merely kill him, quickly and efficiently? Would Rampage live? Or die?

In a boxing match or an MMA match? 'Cause if it was an MMA match, I don't see how Lewis could win. Rampage isn't known for his ground game but it's still a hundred times better than whatever ground skill Lewis has.

[Caliban]

In a boxing match or an MMA match? 'Cause if it was an MMA match, I don't see how Lewis could win. Rampage isn't known for his ground game but it's still a hundred times better than whatever ground skill Lewis has.

First off, Stego, saying Lennox is a chump is fucking stupid. The guy was a first class champ, in 15 years he was floored twice and counted out once. He had an iron jaw. He was a combo machine. He, in my mind, will go down as the most underrated heavyweight of all time.

The reason I ridicule Rampage v Lennox, is because Rampage and Liddell are primarily stand up fighters. If you stand Rampage or Liddell up against Lennox Lewis (and anybody that has watched Lennox fight a few times knows this) you will see Lennox destroy Rampage.

Lennox Lewis was an amazing champion. I resent Stego for his comments about Lennox.

The only reason I bring this up is because I find the UFC somewhat dubious, as I dont believe their fighters are the best.

[Caliban]

In a boxing match or an MMA match? 'Cause if it was an MMA match, I don't see how Lewis could win. Rampage isn't known for his ground game but it's still a hundred times better than whatever ground skill Lewis has.

If Lewis trained a little on the ground he would work Rampage. Their is a reason why Lennox accomplished what he did. Talent and work ethic. Train Lennox as an MMA fighter and you have the best that ever fought.

[Stego]

You're deluded. Boxing isn't fighting. It isn't even close. It's offensive that they call the matches 'fights.'

And if you think training 'a little' will get you ready to defend against a pro MMA fighter......well, you're deluded again.

Lewis did not 'achieve' anything. He fought no one worthy of mention in an era where every match has to be considered suspect for fixing. There's a reason boxing has fallen off the map so absolutely, and a lot of it has to do with mediocre talent like Lewis.

[Horus Ex Machina]

First off, Stego, saying Lennox is a chump is fucking stupid. The guy was a first class champ, in 15 years he was floored twice and counted out once. He had an iron jaw. He was a combo machine. He, in my mind, will go down as the most underrated heavyweight of all time.

The reason I ridicule Rampage v Lennox, is because Rampage and Liddell are primarily stand up fighters. If you stand Rampage or Liddell up against Lennox Lewis (and anybody that has watched Lennox fight a few times knows this) you will see Lennox destroy Rampage.

Lennox Lewis was an amazing champion. I resent Stego for his comments about Lennox.

The only reason I bring this up is because I find the UFC somewhat dubious, as I dont believe their fighters are the best.

That's why I advise you to find some Pride video of Shogun Rua. The UFC did not have the best talent in the world. I know I'll get some flack for saying that but they didn't. DW has since rectified that so stay tuned. DW constantly saying Chuck was the best in the world was a joke. If you look at the Chuteboxe guys from Brazil, George St. Pierre and Diego Sanchez; watch thier style, see thier kicks and the way they work both on the ground and the feet you will never say that MMA is an unskilled sport, I promise you. That is at least if you look w/out bias.

MMA is beginning to get into the first generation of pure MMA fighters, who are not converts from other sports but have trained for this thier whole life. That's why to judge MMA without seeing the best Brazilians (and I believe that they are the best right now and we'll see it when the rest arrive in the UFC) like Anderson Silva, Gabriel Gonzaga, Shogun, Ninja, Nog, Minotauro, and Franca is pretty much like looking around MMA with blinders on. The best fighters today are good, but the next generation that will have trained in an MMA specific school thier whole lives will be even better.

Anyway, check out the Vale Tudo guys, then make a comparison without bias.

As I've said before, Lennox is the greatest HW champ of our generation, no doubt. And maybe he beats Rampage, but only after excessive training in other martial art forms. But in a fight with hands and feet, Mauricio 'Shogun' Rua outskills alot of boxers, kickboxers, grapplers, etc.

BTW Lennox Lewis is not in Rampage's weight class, and I don't really think this debate helps boxing b/c MMA is not what ails boxing.

You're deluded. Boxing isn't fighting. It isn't even close. It's offensive that they call the matches 'fights.'

And if you think training 'a little' will get you ready to defend against a pro MMA fighter......well, you're deluded again.

Lewis did not 'achieve' anything. He fought no one worthy of mention in an era where every match has to be considered suspect for fixing. There's a reason boxing has fallen off the map so absolutely, and a lot of it has to do with mediocre talent like Lewis.

You make some good points, but I hate this MMA vs boxing debate b/c they're two different sports. And I really think that bashing Lennox's great career does nothing to help MMA. Lewis had nothing to do with boxing's problems and was in fact a victim of them. Bashing him doesn't help MMA, so give him his due,... in boxing.

You're right, training "a little" won't help you in MMA, but I'll say this; MMA fighters are no where near as good as the next generation of MMA fighters will be, now that a lot of young kids will grow up having seen highlights of it on Sportscenter like the other big time sports.

This sport is having the same problems NASCAR did when it was coming up. Fans of open-wheel racing (like me) didn't like the attention it was getting so they ridiculed it. But open-wheel racing didn't die out, and most of its problems were self-made; like the Cart vs. IRL fiasco. Other fans resisted on calling them atheletes. For those people I say this; for every Rampage who a boxing fan thinks only gets by on streetfighting and brutality, there are the Nickolai Valuev's and John Ruiz's of the world in boxing who get by on abnormal size and brute strength. Give it time, there will be resistance (DW sometimes instigates it) from boxing, but it will pass. I really don't want this thread being highjacked into the MMA vs. boxing debate because in the end it doesn't matter.

[Horus Ex Machina]

In a boxing match or an MMA match? 'Cause if it was an MMA match, I don't see how Lewis could win. Rampage isn't known for his ground game but it's still a hundred times better than whatever ground skill Lewis has.

Rampage was a college wrestler. And he is known for his throws and his gnp in Japan.

I'm pretty much a noob when it comes to this stuff, but couldn't Fedor Emelianenko be that guy? Maybe he doesn't have a glowing personality, but from what I've seen of him, the guy exudes badass, and that worked for Mike Tyson. I think people would tune in just to see how bad he destroys folks.

He may never fight in the UFC, or maybe not until he's old. Looking at the stipulations in his contract if DW takes him to court to prevent him from leaving, he'll lose. DW would be wise to let the non-exclusive Pride contracts run out and then try to sign them later. I'm afraid he may be alienating a lot of good fighters by trying to change the terms of thier previous contracts.

[Rockroi]

You're deluded. Boxing isn't fighting. It isn't even close. It's offensive that they call the matches 'fights.'

They are mostly called "boxing matches."

And if you think training 'a little' will get you ready to defend against a pro MMA fighter......well, you're deluded again.

I don't think that's the point. I think if stand-up fighters were forced to stay standing, I think Lewis (huge guy, very powerful, very dedicated) would do just fine. Hwoever, if you are fighting MMA, he'd be toast. And all those fighters would get destrpyed if they ever laced on a pair of gloves against Lewis.

Lewis did not 'achieve' anything. He fought no one worthy of mention in an era where every match has to be considered suspect for fixing.

He was a very talented HW for his era. His era was boring. He defeated many of the names of his day, and like most fighters, slowed down as his competition got more and more specialized. He lost two fights, avenged them both. I don't think crapping on LL is a way to improve the view of MMA. And Lewis was also the VICTIM of one of the more attrocious decisons- his "draw" to Evander Holyfield, which actually DID seem fixed, but AGAINST Lewis who obviously DOMINATED that fight.

There's a reason boxing has fallen off the map so absolutely, and a lot of it has to do with mediocre talent like Lewis.

Ah... what? Boxing has fallen off the map? Really? Okay...

http://www.mmaweekly.com/absolutenm/templa...?articleid=3922

2006 was the second most successful year for boxing pay-per view ever. The De La Hoyal- Mayweather fight was the most purched PPV event of all time (2007). The UFC's biggest event in company history, last December's UFC 66 with Chuck Liddell vs. Tito Ortiz as the main event, drew approximately 1,050,000 pay-per-view buys and grossed approximately $41.95 million in PPV revenue. By contrast, a non-title, relatively pedestrian event of De La Hoya v. Myorga drew very similar numbers: 925,000 pay-per-view buys and generated $46.2 million in gross PPV revenue.

MMA is drawing viewers, but not away from boxing; its actually drawing viewers away from the WWE (ironiocally enough, b/c most MMA fighters HATE being compared to pro-wrestlers).

As any boxing analysi (ie- not the dweebs who write for ESPN.com) will tell you, Boxing is alive and well. Now, does boxing have problems? FUCK yes! And they need to be addressed. But if Boxing is being "replaced" by MMA... its not following that script.

[Caliban]

I dont want to derail this any further, but Stego, you are wrong. Lewis beat every decent heavyweight in a 15 year period. I know this would cause controversy, but if you put Ali in his prime and supplanted him into the ring against Lennox in his prime, Ali gets knocked out. Lewis had the speed Ali had, a stronger jaw, more power, and a lot more size. I dont get the disrespect that Lennox gets.

Per MMA,

I really liked the UFC until that show came out. The Spike show. Those guys are such douche bags, they take being a douche to monumental levels, I cant get behind any of them. Talk about a bunch of social retards. Remember the episode where they got to drink? Ive never seen anything like that. It was ridiculous.

[Rockroi]

Lennox in his prime, Ali gets knocked out. Lewis had the speed Ali had, a stronger jaw, more power, and a lot more size. I dont get the disrespect that Lennox gets.

I was with you un to this point. Granted, Lewis is like 50 pounds heavier than Ali, but so ws Foreman, and we saw how that ended (BTW- I am totaly derailing this thread). Lewis DOES NOT have the speed Ali had, nor the ring generalship; he certainly did not have the chin (Ali has never been KO'd in all his years in boxing; Lewis twice). I give Lewis the edge in power, but Ali defeated many heavyweights who were stronger punchers than him (the aforementioned Foreman, Frazier, Shavers, Lyle, Liston, Williams). I also think that if they go 15 rounds, it all Ali. Lewis has been knon to tire as the fights go longer.

I know he's bigger, but even with that, I see Ali getting a clear 15 Rd UD.