Mixed Martial Arts - Rashad Evans vs Michael Bisping

[Caliban]

I was with you un to this point. Granted, Lewis is like 50 pounds heavier than Ali, but so ws Foreman, and we saw how that ended (BTW- I am totaly derailing this thread). Lewis DOES NOT have the speed Ali had, nor the ring generalship; he certainly did not have the chin (Ali has never been KO'd in all his years in boxing; Lewis twice). I give Lewis the edge in power, but Ali defeated many heavyweights who were stronger punchers than him (the aforementioned Foreman, Frazier, Shavers, Lyle, Liston, Williams). I also think that if they go 15 rounds, it all Ali. Lewis has been knon to tire as the fights go longer.

I know he's bigger, but even with that, I see Ali getting a clear 15 Rd UD.

Well, considering Foreman was drugged....(but thats an 'old' story) (and Holmes knocked out Ali but Im willing to disregard that fight)

Honestly, Rock, what do you think would have happened in Zaire if it was Lennox? I watch all the old fights and those guys looked like total jamokes. Frazier looks horrible by Lewis's reign's standards. Honestly, the guy that is most akin to the guys Lewis fought (in size speed and power) is Ken Norton Sr. who broke Ali's jaw on one occasion and got robbed of wins against Ali on 2 other occasions.

Lewis's jaw is a point of huge debate. I am of te belief that the Rahman punch was a huge fluke and the fact that Lewis was counted out once in 15 years, in an era of huge punchers (he took a couple of David Tua's huge hooks) proves me right.

[Horus Ex Machina]

I dont want to derail this any further, but Stego, you are wrong. Lewis beat every decent heavyweight in a 15 year period. I know this would cause controversy, but if you put Ali in his prime and supplanted him into the ring against Lennox in his prime, Ali gets knocked out. Lewis had the speed Ali had, a stronger jaw, more power, and a lot more size. I dont get the disrespect that Lennox gets.

What the fuck are you talking about? Lennox Lewis had the speed of Ali,.... are you kidding me? I was defending LL right up until you made that stupid point! I hate to even dignify this by responding to it but LL used his size and his jab to effectively offset the speed advantage a shorter, quicker opponent might have against him. He was not exceedingly fast at all, but he fought like a big man, but had way more skill than a modern day oaf like Valuev or Maskaev or an other Russian monster.

Well, considering Foreman was drugged....(but thats an 'old' story) (and Holmes knocked out Ali but Im willing to disregard that fight)

Honestly, Rock, what do you think would have happened in Zaire if it was Lennox? I watch all the old fights and those guys looked like total jamokes. Frazier looks horrible by Lewis's reign's standards. Honestly, the guy that is most akin to the guys Lewis fought (in size speed and power) is Ken Norton Sr. who broke Ali's jaw on one occasion and got robbed of wins against Ali on 2 other occasions.

Lewis's jaw is a point of huge debate. I am of te belief that the Rahman punch was a huge fluke and the fact that Lewis was counted out once in 15 years, in an era of huge punchers (he took a couple of David Tua's huge hooks) proves me right.

If you're judging Frazier with the same logic you used to judge Lewis' speed I can no longer take you seriously. Besides the fastest opponent Ali ever fought was Floyd Patterson and he was about size equivalent to Evander Holyfield.

And McCall did KO Lewis as well. If you take issue with that stoppage recall that the purpose of a standing eight count is to determine the condition of the boxer. Of course Lennox is going to say that he's ok.

Give Lewis the power advantage on Ali, obviously. And Lewis is probably considerably more skilled a boxer than Foreman was. All other judgements on the talent of competition being subjective you lose all credibility when you state that Lewis' speed was superior in any way to Ali's.

[Horus Ex Machina]

We've seen Thiago Alves debut impressively in UFC 66, former Chute Boxe standout Anderson Silva won the UFC MW title pretty quickly upon his arrival and Gabriel Gonzaga (also fmrly w/ Chute Boxe) and Hermes Franca both look to do the same.

But we still haven't even scratched the surface of the big talent pool that is Brazil, and with it the famous team of fighters known as Chute Boxe. The rumors are growing of their best and most exciting and dynamic fighters the Pride Grand Prix Champion Mauricio 'Shogun' Rua. He thouroughly dominated the man who has twice dominated Chuck Liddell, the UFC LHW Champion 'Rampage' Jackson. In as little as a year we could see 4 of the 5 UFC titles in Brazilian hands and with the arrival of fellow Chute Boxe fighters Wanderlei Silva and possibly Ninja, I think that MFS' domination of the UFC has come to an end.

It's really telling that in the last few months we've seen MFS fighters Matt Hughes and Tim Silvia, along with MFS associated Rich Franklin all lose long-held titles. Now with Chute Boxe and the revival of American Top Team, it looks like that dominance is now a thing of the past.

Any thoughts on how the Brazilians will affect the UFC? Can the MFS Elite compete with Chute Boxe?

We'll start finding out pretty soon.

[zelticgar]

Horus,

I don't know a lot about Chute Boxe fighters but i do believe that Hermes Franca and Gabriel Gonzago are serious title threats. Gonzaga impressed me very much both times i've seen him fight. I definitely got the sense that Couture was not thrilled to have to face him next. I predct it will be a great fight but i dont see how Couture beats him. I have not seen Sherk fight enough to accurately predict how he will do against Franca. It would not surprise me at all if he won that fight. He handled Spencer Fisher pretty well in his last fight and Fisher is no joke.

[Liffguard]

Whilst I can certainly see Gonzaga taking the title, I've learned never to count Couture out. Assuming Gonzaga does win, I don't see him holding the title long-term. Cro Cop will be back from his (admitedly devastating) loss. He's shown before that he can take a loss like this and learn from it, coming back stronger. With the addition of Minotauro to the division, there's no lack of talent vying for the top spot. And to think, it wasn't so long ago that the UFC HW division was just endless rematches between Arlovski and Sylvia.

[Horus Ex Machina]

Couture will be the tougher of the two incumbent title holders to dethrone because of his proven veteran savvy. That said he is facing a talented beast in Gonzaga.

Big action this weekend as the K1-Dynamite got underway and was uncovered for the sham that it was. Why they thought they could do what the LA Raiders couldn't do (which is gather the interest of one of the worst sports citys in the nation) is beyond me. But the big thing was the 'Next Big Thing' Brock Lesnar of WWE fame finally getting that first MMA win out of the way. While it was a against a fighter with a 2-5-1 record, his original opponent unable to pass a physical to get sanctioned, he showed that his real wrestling skills that garnered him a 105-6 NCAA Collegiate wrestling record and a National title, have not eroded. I always felt that his decision to leave the WWE stemmed largely from his innate need for some competitive outlet in which his natural physical talent would be appreciated. 10 years ago there was no such thing for collegiate wrestlers outside of the coreographed industry of pro-wrestling. After a so-so go with pro football he finally has one in MMA and I'm happy that he finally has an opportunity to exhibit his true atheletic skills to the world.

It's time for Royce Gracie to hang up the gloves. Like Evander Holyfield, he's starting to tarnish his own legacy. As I've said about Holyfield, I wish he would retire so we can remember him for the fighter he was, not the shell he has become. He won by decision by the way. The previous paragraph goes double for Sakuraba.

Johnny Morton is still lying on the canvas in the middle of the Colosseum. And every K1 promoted event was a big flop.

[Logan]

Wonder how long before Lesnar shows up in UFC. I'd say after getting 3 wins in the smaller leagues so he at least has some kind of record to tout. Be interesting to see how he does against some of the better talent. Seems like he's in it for real at least, though he's a bit premature in wanting a title match.

The announcers were really trying to convince us that we were watching something special during the Gracie-Sakuraba fight, rather than just two guys who should be resting on their legacies.

[EHK for Darwin]

On the earlier note about mainstream marketability and getting the breakthrough personality...is it really possible in MMA? Will anyone actually stay on top long enough to do it? The nature of the sport, even more so than boxing, ensures that one lucky punch (no big, padded gloves) or a lucky takedown can end a fight quick, even against a superior opponent. In boxing, more often than not, the guy who is substantially more talented (so long as he doesn't slack off) is gonna win. The fighters are also protected from serious competition. Sure its one of boxing's biggest liabilities, its near impossible to make good fights. But that also ensures you will see a host of guys with 33-0 records. Which is marketable (to an extent) in and of itself. And its something you will never see in MMA.

That's one of the things I appreciate most about MMA (even though I'm not really a fan), that it can give us the fights that fans want to see. That you don't have the rampant ducking of opponents. But it may also hurt it in the long run. Sidenote: Didn't know about Lesnar. Cool as hell. If he ever does some regular TV shit, I'll definately check it out. I don't pay for PPV.

[Rockroi]

EHK:

On the earlier note about mainstream marketability and getting the breakthrough personality...is it really possible in MMA?

This is the big question. For the reasons you stated, EHK, I wonder if it is possible. I remmeber when 60 minutes did a big peice on Bob Sap. Next fight, Sap gets crushed. UFC goes out and grabs the guy who dominated Sap- Mirko Crocop. Cro Cop promptly losses his very first fight in the UFC. Meanwhile, Chuck Lidell appears on Entorage, the cover of ESPN the Mag, gets on Sports Center, etc. And then is KO'd in under 3 min by a guy most sports fans could not pick out of a lineup with three guesses and a copy of "Who's Who in MMA."

Now everyone talks about Fedor, and I think that's great. But at the same time, I wonder if the sport is just designed so that nobody can stay on top for very long. If that's the case, can THAT be marketed? Its not too far of a leap in logic from "Anybody can be beaten" to "Anybody can win."

I hope not. I find MMA to be very compelling. However, EHK, I completely agree with your assessment of MMA v. Boxing.

[Oorag]

To be fair, it was Cro Cop's second fight. In his first fight he faced some chump who ran away from him the whole fight.

And I don't think Lesnar's going to be a big name in MMA. I think he's going to be another Butterbean.

[Horus Ex Machina]

I feel pretty sorry for Brock b/c he's kind of in a no-win situation. If he wins noone, esp. ESPN, will think it's legit and probably publicise how a pro-wrestler "worked" his way to a title discounting the fact that he was at one time one of the best college wrestlers in the nation. If he loses then thats "just what happens to WWE superstars when they get involved in a real sport" once again ignoring the fact that he was an accomplished real athelete in a combat sport.

The comparison to Butter Bean doesn't work, because Butterbean was the "King of the 3 Rounders". He was a fat, out of shape, bum who fought against other FOOSB's in the made-up "Superheavyweight division". DW has already said that he has talked to Brock Lesnar about joining the UFC provided that he severed all ties to pro-wrestling. This is the severe hang-up that has kept him from signing another decorated, yet old, amateur wrestler in Kurt Angle. He wants them to be seen as real atheletes and continuing to compete in a choreographed sport while in the UFC shows not only a lack of dedication necessary in an MMA athelete, but also casts doubt on the legitimacy of MMA. Brock has long since done this. You don't see DW offering contracts to Triple-H or Chris Jericho. This is because Lesnar has a real combat pedigree outside of pro-wrestling.

First off if DW does sign Lesnar I can guarantee that while you'll see numerous clips from his NCAA matches as a member of the Minnesota Golden Gophers, you will see nothing or even hear nary a mention of his years spent with the WWE. If DW could suck the memory of those 3 years form your minds, he would. Another difference from the BB comparison is that whether he goes to UFC, Elite XC or even Bodog he will be fighting real competitive fighters, not members of a "show division". This will be true especially if he goes to UFC. Bidding on Lesnar's services will not come cheap, bottom line, and DW will want to cash in on his investment. He may initially feed him a few 'cans to get him acclimatized to the sport but eventually DW will want him on a main or co-main event card and that will mean fighting a guy like Liddell or Couture, or even Tito (all of whom he can probably beat in straight freestyle wrestling).

[Oorag]

The comparison to Butter Bean doesn't work, because Butterbean was the "King of the 3 Rounders".

I'm just saying that I don't think Lesnar will go far, but he'll stick around on the sidelines due to name recognition from another "sport".

[EHK for Darwin]

I don't know much about MMA, but I don't see a reason off hand why Lesnar shouldn't do well. He's an excellent natural athlete, which already gives him an advantage over much of MMA. (lets face it, if these guys had the innate tools, they'd going to another sport to make millions just like anyone else would.) He has a great grappling background which can presumably be adapted to the necessities of MMA. He's strong. Don't know if he's quick. He doesn't seem one to be indimidated or afraid to take a punch. With the proper background, training, and practice...what's stopping him from having an impact?

The MMA is not made up of super-athletes. Not yet anyway. The first generation (Royce and such) were often the furthest thing from it. The second gen. is better and it will only continue to improve. But its not there yet. Presumably a physically talented enough individual with the proper dedication and schooling should be able to do well.

[Horus Ex Machina]

I'm just saying that I don't think Lesnar will go far, but he'll stick around on the sidelines due to name recognition from another "sport".

I understand what you're saying, but I'll give you a different angle. If the UFC was doing the business that it's doing now back in 2000 when Brock Lesnar graduated from Minnesota after winning the NCAA National Championship his senior year, he would never have joined the WWE. Now where in MMA do you think he'd be today if he had started then. Keep that in mind as the type of possible potential that many in MMA think he has. This is a guy who ran a 4.6 40 yard dash time when he tried out for the Vikings (thats from an ESPN radio report on the spectacle). I don't care who you are, for a guy upwards of 250 lbs, any 40 time below 5.0 is awesome. Butterbean was a fat out of shape slob who'd never played a real sport in his life. So when I gauge Lesnar's potential, I mentally tune out the 3 years that he spent with the WWE and consider him like any other NCAA wrestler who's spent 15-plus years on the Greco Roman/Freestyle mats. He deserves at least that much consideration.

One thing I found funny when they announced Lesnar is that not only did they announce his 2000 NCAA National Championship, but they also mentioned that he was a WWE champion. You can be sure that DW will not make this mistake. In hyping this up he will only talk college mats when referring to Brock.

The MMA is not made up of super-athletes. Not yet anyway. The first generation (Royce and such) were often the furthest thing from it. The second gen. is better and it will only continue to improve. But its not there yet. Presumably a physically talented enough individual with the proper dedication and schooling should be able to do well.

I kind of mentioned this point before, this generation is not as good as the next generation will be after young kids who will have grown up seeing highlights of MMA on Sportscenter will suddenly consider the sport as a viable option. A lot of the better atheletes who might have competed in boxing will go to MMA. Atheletes who played football and wrestled in college who might have once chosen the NFL might chose an MMA future which may have competitive money (god knows that football on avg. pays the least of the big four, esp. true in the case of linemen) a chance to make a name for themselves (the fact that Emmit Smith's face didn't really have celeb status until he did DwtS tells you something). Collegiate wrestlers like Shelton Benjamin or Brock Lesnar who took the money that was offered by the WWE because there were no competitive outlets for college wrestlers back then will definitely choose the opportunity to play a real sport.

The only country where I can say we are starting to see top-level atheletes coming into the sport is Brazil. After soccer (and a few in the NBA) fighting is huge in Brazil and Academies like Chute Boxe and Brazilian Top Team take these kids when they're like 10 years old and mold them into top level fighters. This is why you'll soon see Brazillians taking many of the UFC titles like they did in Pride. It may have taken time to reach notoriety here in the states, but from the time Royce Gracie showed up on UFC 1 it caught fire there.

[zelticgar]

The only country where I can say we are starting to see top-level atheletes coming into the sport is Brazil. After soccer (and a few in the NBA) fighting is huge in Brazil and Academies like Chute Boxe and Brazilian Top Team take these kids when they're like 10 years old and mold them into top level fighters. This is why you'll soon see Brazillians taking many of the UFC titles like they did in Pride. It may have taken time to reach notoriety here in the states, but from the time Royce Gracie showed up on UFC 1 it caught fire there.

I will grant you that the Brazilian guys are solid but i don't feel they seperate themselves significantly from the US, Japanese, Eastern European or Canadian fighters. These groups all have pockets of solid fighters and camps that churn out top level guys. I agree that the Brazilians will pick up some additional titles in the UFC but you are talking them up like they are the Russian Hockey time circa the 1960's and 1970's. They just are not that dominant. Their guys rise and fall just like everyone else.

Regarding dominant fighters -

I think you will see guys that dominate for periods of time but i think we are subconsciously defining dominance by the parameters we use for boxing or other team sports. Dominance in MMA might only mean 10 or 11 straight victories compared to a boxer who needs to tick off 18 to 20 wins over journeymen fighters.

[Horus Ex Machina]

Franklin-Okama

I'd give a penny for Randy Couture's thoughts on this fight, he seems to have a good grasp of the fight game which is why I can't wait until he goes to the commentary booth for good. Don't get me wrong, it's not that I want him to retire, it's just that he gives such an educated commentary in contrast to Rogan's more colorful assessment. I love Rogan, no one can do the post-fight interviews like he does (watch WEC and you'll see what I mean), but Couture is usually correct in his predictions and assessment of fights because he looks into thier strengths and weaknesses accurately because he is a fighter who has had to do this on a regular basis. His wrestling background in college added to his boxing in the Army really make him the only guy who can fairly contrast these things.

With that said, I think Couture is picking another upset and so do I. Okama has an attackin gnp style that Couture tends to favor in his predictions, so long as the fighter in question is willing to exchange aggressively enough on the feet to make taking the fight to the ground easier. It is a fluid mesh that RC tends to use in his own fights (see the Tim Sylvia fight). This is also the first fight in a long time in which Franklin is faceing a fighter whose physical strength equals or exceeds his own. Okama is different from most Japanese fighters in that he favors the gnp style as opposed to submissions. He uses his Judo more like Karo, ie. for throws etc. and not submissions. I pick Okami to win a split decision and face Silva in a rematch of thier Pride fight in which Silva was DQed for an illegal kick.

Forrest Griffin needs to forget about pleasing fans because, when the Chute Boxe guys get here, he will not be able to be a realistic contender winning fights on his feet. He is not a good stand-up fighter period. He needs to go to his ground game which I am told is very solid. He should try and start with UFC 72. If he continues to insist on slugging it out he'll find his UFC carreer quickly careening downhill with the standup talent which is arriving in UFC.

I also hope that DW will announce that he is unifying the Pride/UFC titles but will also keep the Pride Grand Prixes going. You do not need to keep the two companies separate to continue to run these tournaments and while DW said that he did not like the tourny's at the UFC 71 post-fight presser, he also said that they were considering continuing to run them in Japan. My belief is that may be the opinion of the Fertittas who may not want to completely dissolve Pride when they stand to gain a major foothold in the wealthy Japanese market.

That's my thoughts on UFC 72.

BTW are you even going to bother watching this ppv or are you waiting for UFC 73?

[Tormund Ukrainesbane]

I won't be watching this PPV. The card isn't very good, I have several fighters I like, but none of them are fighting tomorrow. That said, I think Franklin will take Okami (by decision to be specific). Okami has the streak going for him, but I don't think he has the skills.

I hope that, even with Pride going to the UFC weight divisions, they will keep separate titles and perhaps have a tournament every December open to all who held a title in the prior year. I think that the competition is one thing that has helped keep the sport clean, with each having its own fan base and trying to outdo the other.

[Ser Barry]

Rich Franklin vs. Yushin Okami

Franklin in the second. Okami is all about G&P and Franklin is far too big and too savvy to be dominated.

Forrest Griffin vs. Hector Ramirez

Ramirez lacks knockout power but at least he as trained properly for this fight. Griffin on a decision.

Jason MacDonald vs. Rory Singer

MacDonald by submission. Too big and slick for Singer.

Tyson Griffin vs. Clay Guida

Griffin by KO. Guida is all action but he will leave himself exposed.

[Ser_not_appearing_yet]

btw, on the subject of ufc in general, how awesome is rampage? I mean generally, lol

[Horus Ex Machina]

I hope that, even with Pride going to the UFC weight divisions, they will keep separate titles and perhaps have a tournament every December open to all who held a title in the prior year. I think that the competition is one thing that has helped keep the sport clean, with each having its own fan base and trying to outdo the other.

Yes this would be the optimum situation, however with DW already quoted in the '71 post-fight presser as saying that the winner of Hendo v Rampage will have both belts, and then saying that "we're going to have them all", as in signed to UFC contracts, my hopes for Pride have to be realistic. The deal almost didn't go through because first DW tried to flip non-exclusive Pride contracts to exclusive ones (DW must not have heard of the legalities involved) Pride fighters filed class action suits to keep from having to transfer thier contracts. Now the Fertittas have finalized the deal and DW has subsequently gutted the Pride talent pool so we're dreaming if we think DW is still planning on keeping the two companies on equal footing. He wants to control everything, and we know what an ego he has. So my hopes are much simpler now; keep the Grand Prixes and do them in Japan. I can live with that.