Where ever whores go

[Nightflyer]

Um, I thought it was because a Lord's son shouldn't be marrying a crofter's daughter. That sort of snobbery amongst Lords is hardly a secret - see Sam when Gilly says she'll be his wife, or Sansa, or Catelyn with Petyr. It's a shame for someone that highborn to be married to a lowly peasant, and Tywin didn't want his house to be shamed..

If the theory is that Tywin couldn't bear the scandal of Tyrion marrying below him, perhaps an annulment and payoff would have worked better? A gang rape of his son's wife is not the quiet way to handle this. Therefore I dont think avoiding scandal works.

Tyrion himself thinks that Tywin's action was a "sharp lesson" to him. But what sort of lesson was it? To me it looks like the lesson was, "Tyrion, if you ever try to build a life, a home, a marriage contrary to my wishes, I will stamp it out most painfully".

[shadowbinding shoe]

If the theory is that Tywin couldn't bear the scandal of Tyrion marrying below him, perhaps an annulment and payoff would have worked better? A gang rape of his son's wife is not the quiet way to handle this. Therefore I dont think avoiding scandal works.

There's no such thing as annulment for Septish marriages. You can only cancel them if they're not consumated and that was not an option here. Tywin undo the marriage by claiming that the bride is a whore and therefore the marriage vows were a hoax. We see this sort of pretend marriage ceremony with the Sailor's wife. By saying it's not real Tywin solves his little problem. There was no shameful marriage, only a phantasy-game with some whore.

[The_BlauerDragon]

If the theory is that Tywin couldn't bear the scandal of Tyrion marrying below him, perhaps an annulment and payoff would have worked better? A gang rape of his son's wife is not the quiet way to handle this. Therefore I dont think avoiding scandal works.

Tyrion himself thinks that Tywin's action was a "sharp lesson" to him. But what sort of lesson was it? To me it looks like the lesson was, "Tyrion, if you ever try to build a life, a home, a marriage contrary to my wishes, I will stamp it out most painfully".

There's no such thing as annulment for Septish marriages. You can only cancel them if they're not consumated and that was not an option here. Tywin undo the marriage by claiming that the bride is a whore and therefore the marriage vows were a hoax. We see this sort of pretend marriage ceremony with the Sailor's wife. By saying it's not real Tywin solves his little problem. There was no shameful marriage, only a phantasy-game with some whore.

You're both right. It was a means of making the marriage disappear (even the soldiers would agree that she was a whore after they'd each paid to rape her)...

And it was a lesson to Tyrion that he'd better forget about ever marrying and starting a family as long as Tywin lived...

[Mad Monkey]

Tyrion himself thinks that Tywin's action was a "sharp lesson" to him. But what sort of lesson was it? To me it looks like the lesson was, "Tyrion, if you ever try to build a life, a home, a marriage contrary to my wishes, I will stamp it out most painfully".

Make it even broader. "Tyrion, if you ever do something, anything at all, I will destroy you. On the inside. Hsssssss."

[Mezeh]

There's no such thing as annulment for Septish marriages. You can only cancel them if they're not consumated and that was not an option here. Tywin undo the marriage by claiming that the bride is a whore and therefore the marriage vows were a hoax. We see this sort of pretend marriage ceremony with the Sailor's wife. By saying it's not real Tywin solves his little problem. There was no shameful marriage, only a phantasy-game with some whore.

You are right Tywin turned the whole thing into one jape. He needed Jaime lie or otherwise obviously the only alternative was killing Tysha and she committed no crime to make it legal.

The question however if what Tywin did was legal even then. After all they did say oath in the septon presence and even a whore could marry.

Anyway since Tysha wasn’t whore and the oath was real they are still legally married and her child would be considered Tyrion’s and trueborn no matter what happened to her afterwards.

Lanna’s name and blond hair do suggest some connection with Lannisters. The name is quite common in Lannisport but barely in Braavos. The girl age is however a problem since Lanna’s age should be known in Braavos because her mother spend all the time after Lanna was born there. Yet it is still possible that they exaggerated her age a bit to make her profession legal. So it is not completely impossible for her to be Tyrion’s daughter after all.

The other possibility – Gerion is even more problematic since his known natural daughter is only 11 so he wasn’t missing when Sailor’s Wife come to Braavos.

So either Lanna’s name and appearance is just a mislead planted by GRRM or Sailor’s Wife is really Tysha.

[tzanth]

I got to thinking, where do whores go? Tysha is irredimeably soiled when Tyrion abandon her and would not have been able to restart her life as a decent woman in Westeros. The only option for her is the brothels and their ilk.

Tysha is not a whore, nor is she "irremediably soiled." A new town and a new name and shed be good as new... not counting her mental state.

Ive always thought that Tywin saying "where do whores go?" was more of a arrogant remark to reflect on his character then any clue as to Tysha's location.

[Nightflyer]

Tysha is not a whore, nor is she "irremediably soiled." A new town and a new name and shed be good as new... not counting her mental state.

Ive always thought that Tywin saying "where do whores go?" was more of a arrogant remark to reflect on his character then any clue as to Tysha's location.

I seem to recall that Tywin did have the marriage annulled, will have to check on that though.

Tysha's options may not be that broad, after what Tywin did to her. She can't start over anywhere near Casterly Rock. She'd have to move pretty far away. She comes from farming stock, but there is no way to just buy land in the world of Westeros, its all owned by the lords who hold it by force of arms. Hopefully she has enough skills to set herself up as a tradewoman, in some distant city. If not, there are the religious orders, and finally prostitution to fall back on. Of course we are assuming she was free to do what she wanted after the gang rape. Tywin or his men might very well have indentured her to a whorehouse afterwards, rather than just letting her go.

Tywin said "Wherever whores go", meaning she was beneath his notice, and he didn't know and didn't care. Tywin considered whores to be just like his privy chamber, something dirty, to be used in private.

One thing I notice about Tywin, we never saw him relate to any woman emotionally. Its as if he thinks all women must be whores. One can only guess why he thinks that way. Of course Cersei's behavior didn't help, but I doubt that was the only factor.

Tywin is lying to us on some level. Perhaps afterwards, when he had solved the "problem" of Tysha, he put her completely out of his mind. But before the gang rape, Tywin must have been hyper aware of her. Enough to plan the gang rape certainly, and maybe provide Jaime's covering lie. Tywin plans everything he does, there is no way the gang rape was just an impulse.

[HarryStark]

I seem to recall that Tywin did have the marriage annulled, will have to check on that though.

<...>

One thing I notice about Tywin, we never saw him relate to any woman emotionally. Its as if he thinks all women must be whores. One can only guess why he thinks that way. Of course Cersei's behavior didn't help, but I doubt that was the only factor.

<...>

No, but he loved his wife and hence he hates Tyrion so much. Didn't Genna Lannister say something like "one of the few times I saw your father smile was when he married your mother"?

Though I'm not quite sure what to make of him having Shae in his bed before he died... Is that because he'd always been two-faced, as seems to be the consensus, or do you guys think there's another explanation?

As for Sailor's Wife, I'd bet that Gerion is a much better explanation - despite his bastard-born daughter being 11 as well. Why couldn't it be that Joy was conceived before he left Lannisport, and Lanna when he got to Braavos?

I'd imagine that Littlefinger knows something about Tysha's whereabouts. Or he could've just learned what he knew by asking around after that conversation between Cercei and Tyrion during the Council meeting...

[Antonius Pius]

No, but he loved his wife and hence he hates Tyrion so much. Didn't Genna Lannister say something like "one of the few times I saw your father smile was when he married your mother"?

When Tyrion asks to be recognized as heir to Casterly Rock, Tywin says: "You ask me that? You, who killed your mother to come into this world? No." It's clear Tywin blames Tyrion for the death of Joanna, but also Tyrion's deformity, because the Imp somehow impugnes the honour of House Lannister, which is amongst Tywin's prime concerns.

Though I'm not quite sure what to make of him having Shae in his bed before he died... Is that because he'd always been two-faced, as seems to be the consensus, or do you guys think there's another explanation?

There is some speculation that Shae was somehow "planted" in Tywin's bedchamber by Varys, in order to have the Tyrion kill Tywin. Myself, I believe Tywin is simply a hypocrite. IMO that fits best with Tywin's character (refusing to acknowledge Tyrion as his son, refusing to accept the validity of Jaime's vow, refusing to believe the tales of incest, etc.).

As for Sailor's Wife, I'd bet that Gerion is a much better explanation - despite his bastard-born daughter being 11 as well. Why couldn't it be that Joy was conceived before he left Lannisport, and Lanna when he got to Braavos?

Maybe he even took his "wife" with him to Braavos, but left Joy behind because she was still too young? On average though, if the timeline doesn't fit, the theory is usually flawed...

I'd imagine that Littlefinger knows something about Tysha's whereabouts. Or he could've just learned what he knew by asking around after that conversation between Cercei and Tyrion during the Council meeting...

Why would LF know Tysha's whereabouts?

[HarryStark]

When Tyrion asks to be recognized as heir to Casterly Rock, Tywin says: "You ask me that? You, who killed your mother to come into this world? No." It's clear Tywin blames Tyrion for the death of Joanna, but also Tyrion's deformity, because the Imp somehow impugnes the honour of House

Lannister, which is amongst Tywin's prime concerns.

Yes but my point was merely that I do believe he loved his wife. Though you could be right I suppose, his love of House Lannister was above his love for his wife...

There is some speculation that Shae was somehow "planted" in Tywin's bedchamber by Varys, in order to have the Tyrion kill Tywin. Myself, I believe Tywin is simply a hypocrite. IMO that fits best with Tywin's character (refusing to acknowledge Tyrion as his son, refusing to accept the validity of Jaime's vow, refusing to believe the tales of incest, etc.).

Hmm, yeah, again, that fits in with what you were saying above I guess. I was just playing devil's advocate - and in any case, could his love for his (late) wife not be his "redeeming quality?" It's unusual for a character to be so completely clear-cut in GRRM as to be a hyppocrite and nothing else...

Maybe he even took his "wife" with him to Braavos, but left Joy behind because she was still too young? On average though, if the timeline doesn't fit, the theory is usually flawed...

I'm not convinced that the timeline doesn't fit, in this case. I'd say it fits a deal better than the 'Lanna is Tyrion's bastard daughter' theory, 's all I'm saying...

Why would LF know Tysha's whereabouts?

Well, I guess here I was subscribing to the view that she became a whore and went to KL, to be discovered by LF later... Hence prompting the statement from Tywin that sparked this debate originally. Though I willingly allow that it could've just been Tywin being nasty...

[Tysha]

Well, I guess here I was subscribing to the view that she became a whore and went to KL, to be discovered by LF later... Hence prompting the statement from Tywin that sparked this debate originally. Though I willingly allow that it could've just been Tywin being nasty...

When Jaime explains to Tyrion why he lied, he says that Tywin thought Tysha was just after the Lannister money which made her no better than a whore. So even though he knew bloody well she wasn't actually a whore, Tywin considered her to be on the same level as them anyway, hence why he always referred to her as such.

[The_BlauerDragon]

[EDIT]

Though I'm not quite sure what to make of him having Shae in his bed before he died... Is that because he'd always been two-faced, as seems to be the consensus, or do you guys think there's another explanation?

[/EDIT]

Could it possibly be that Tywin wasn't behind her betrayal of Tyrion and he was pumping her for information?

[The_BlauerDragon]

When Jaime explains to Tyrion why he lied, he says that Tywin thought Tysha was just after the Lannister money which made her no better than a whore. So even though he knew bloody well she wasn't actually a whore, Tywin considered her to be on the same level as them anyway, hence why he always referred to her as such.

On a completely off topic side note... Tysha, your name put together with that gif of the young girl doing the sexy dance is just a bit disturbing for me... Okay, more than just a bit... Was that intentional?

Now, (back to the topic at hand) it would appear that Tywin has a very low opinion of all women. Do we have anything to suggest what his views were on the subject PRIOR to his marriage? Could it be that he has built up a super image of his former wife and that all women seem to be lowly whores by comparison? That might explain his behavior to some extent... Dohn'cha Tink?

[Tysha]

On a completely off topic side note... Tysha, your name put together with that gif of the young girl doing the sexy dance is just a bit disturbing for me... Okay, more than just a bit... Was that intentional?

Um ... no. Though you've now made me tempted to change my avatar. I like my dancing girl, dammit!

[The_BlauerDragon]

Um ... no. Though you've now made me tempted to change my avatar. I like my dancing girl, dammit!

I like it too... It's cute, it's just that a graphic of a 13 year old dancing like a stripper, when put together with the name of a 13 year old that was brutally treated as a Whore by Tywin... is... well... to me, at least... a little creepy... Sorry.

[Tysha]

I like it too... It's cute, it's just that a graphic of a 13 year old dancing like a stripper, when put together with the name of a 13 year old that was brutally treated as a Whore by Tywin... is... well... to me, at least... a little creepy... Sorry.

Well, pretend she's older than 13. She's a gif, she can be any age you want her to be.

Also, you have a sick, sick mind.

[The_BlauerDragon]

Well, pretend she's older than 13. She's a gif, she can be any age you want her to be.

Also, you have a sick, sick mind.

Um... Thank you... I guess...?

[redcandle17]

Now, (back to the topic at hand) it would appear that Tywin has a very low opinion of all women. Do we have anything to suggest what his views were on the subject PRIOR to his marriage? Could it be that he has built up a super image of his former wife and that all women seem to be lowly whores by comparison? That might explain his behavior to some extent... Dohn'cha Tink?

I don't think Tywin has a low opinion of all women; he has a low opinion of common women. It probably stems from his father's mistress walking around Casterly Rock in his mother's clothes and jewelry. After his father died, he had the woman paraded naked through Lannisport. In his mind, non-highborn women are all whores*. He's also extremely class conscious. Remember his rant after Jonos Slynt was made Lord of Harrenhal? Tywin has a very rigid view of people and their place in the world. Anyone who tries to step out of their place can expect a severe smackdown from Tywin.

*It is just a coincidence that Tywin had his guards and Tyrion pay Tysha before raping her and Gregor threw money at the tavernkeeper before raping the man's daughter, right?

[HarryStark]

I don't think Tywin has a low opinion of all women; he has a low opinion of common women. It probably stems from his father's mistress walking around Casterly Rock in his mother's clothes and jewelry. After his father died, he had the woman paraded naked through Lannisport. In his mind, non-highborn women are all whores*. He's also extremely class conscious. Remember his rant after Jonos Slynt was made Lord of Harrenhal? Tywin has a very rigid view of people and their place in the world. Anyone who tries to step out of their place can expect a severe smackdown from Tywin.

*It is just a coincidence that Tywin had his guards and Tyrion pay Tysha before raping her and Gregor threw money at the tavernkeeper before raping the man's daughter, right?

That seems like the obvious explanation, yeah - though presumably he would've married his wife before his father died? Perhaps he only "became" nasty towards women after that incident?

As for the incident with Gregor - when did this happen? (for the benefit of those of us who don't know ALL the books completely inside out)

[Mad Monkey]

Could it possibly be that Tywin wasn't behind her betrayal of Tyrion and he was pumping her for information?

Well, it's obvious that he was definitely pumping her for-- ah, it's too easy.

Now, (back to the topic at hand) it would appear that Tywin has a very low opinion of all women. Do we have anything to suggest what his views were on the subject PRIOR to his marriage? Could it be that he has built up a super image of his former wife and that all women seem to be lowly whores by comparison? That might explain his behavior to some extent... Dohn'cha Tink?

That actually sounds very likely to me. Tywin has a very superior attitude so naturally it makes sense for him to assume that anything connected to him is far superior than anything involving someone else. He might despise Tyrion but he still thinks that his Lannister blood makes him better than all of the other non-Lannisters, especially a crofter's daughter like Tysha.

It's unusual for a character to be so completely clear-cut in GRRM as to be a hyppocrite and nothing else...

Tywin being a hypocrite about whores hardly blots out any of his other character traits.