R + L = J the real Martin twist

[Mad Monkey]

Jon is not the baby Aegon switched at birth. We know Aegon had marked Targaryen traits, Jon has marked Stark traits. It's not possible.

And even if Jon morphed into a Stark by some strange coincidence, how did the one to two year age difference go unmarked by Catelyn Stark when she found the infant Jon at Winterfell?

I like good crackpot theories, but this one doesn't pass the laugh test. Now, if one wants to speculate that Jon wasn't the only child at the Tower of Joy, then we can go on forever with very little to support or deny our fantasies.

Do you think that Ned could have given birth to Jon? Listen, it all fits. We know that the Stark family has warging powers, and from Bran we find out that they can even take the forms of humans and other creatures that are not their pets. Is it possible that while Lyanna lay dying, Ned tried to comfort her by possessing her as a warg to bear the brunt of the pain himself. But as he was doing so, Lyanna/Ned gave birth to baby Jon, and the strain of doing so caused a small portion of Ned Stark's spirit to flow into the baby, creating a child who is technically the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna but resembles Eddard Stark. When Lyanna died, he returned to his own body and raised the child that Rhaegar had by proxy forced him to give birth to as his "bastard".

Prove that I'm wrong.

[redcandle17]

Do you think that Ned could have given birth to Jon? Listen, it all fits. We know that the Stark family has warging powers, and from Bran we find out that they can even take the forms of humans and other creatures that are not their pets. Is it possible that while Lyanna lay dying, Ned tried to comfort her by possessing her as a warg to bear the brunt of the pain himself. But as he was doing so, Lyanna/Ned gave birth to baby Jon, and the strain of doing so caused a small portion of Ned Stark's spirit to flow into the baby, creating a child who is technically the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna but resembles Eddard Stark. When Lyanna died, he returned to his own body and raised the child that Rhaegar had by proxy forced him to give birth to as his "bastard".

[lokisnow]

I've always thought the twist would be he is the heir, but doesn't find out, and doesn't inherit, and doesn't have a passle of progeny.

Considering Jon's Eddard like sense of honor and right, if he discovers he's Rhaegar's son it makes an easy moral decision for him not to marry his aunt Dany and stay on the wall. There's only drama in Jon's moral decision if he has to actually decide between staying (rebuilding?) on the wall, or accepting the throne. And I think if he knew Dany was his aunt then he would make the 'socially right' decision rather than having to agonize over honor or glory.

On the other hand it will be a powerful internal delimma for either Sam or Bran on whether or not to tell Jon about his parentage, because I think they are the two most likely characters to find out.

So I don't think that Jon will ever find out, there's a kind of beautiful melancholy in that sort of ending.

[SFDanny]

Do you think that Ned could have given birth to Jon? Listen, it all fits. We know that the Stark family has warging powers, and from Bran we find out that they can even take the forms of humans and other creatures that are not their pets. Is it possible that while Lyanna lay dying, Ned tried to comfort her by possessing her as a warg to bear the brunt of the pain himself. But as he was doing so, Lyanna/Ned gave birth to baby Jon, and the strain of doing so caused a small portion of Ned Stark's spirit to flow into the baby, creating a child who is technically the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna but resembles Eddard Stark. When Lyanna died, he returned to his own body and raised the child that Rhaegar had by proxy forced him to give birth to as his "bastard".

Prove that I'm wrong.

That has got to be one of the most creative pieces of crackpottery I've read!

While there is nothing to disprove it - other than common sense, there is also not a hint that it is true. At least my own pitiful efforts around the Darkstar have some little support in the story.

I think there needs to be awards given monthly to different kinds of crackpot theories that appear in these pages. There are the kind that are not only outrageous, but are also easily disproved (may I suggest the "Magic Wire & Gorget" award?), and those that are outrageous in there is no support for them in text, but also no way to disprove them (the "Momma Ned" award?), and finally those that have some support in the text, but little possibility of being true (the "Aegon the Darkstar" award?) What do you think?

[The_BlauerDragon]

Prove that I'm wrong.

While I am not about to give you the satisfaction (or myself the headache) of attempting to prove you incorrect, I can say without a moment's hesitation that something is seriously WRONG with you... Still, I got a good laugh out of that...

It does present a good theory though... What if Ned DID switch the babies? But instead of what you're suggesting, switched his own child with the young prince? I don't think it's true... I think Jon is TRULY Eddard's bastard (perhaps nobly born, but...). Just for the sake of arguement, what if it was actually Eddard's child that Gregor bashed against the wall?

[SFDanny]

Just for the sake of arguement, what if it was actually Eddard's child that Gregor bashed against the wall?

I've actually suggested this as part of the "Aegon the Darkstar" scenario. Why? Well, some of the reasons would be as follows: if Ashara has a child with Ned, conceived at or around the time of the Harrenhal tourney, the child would be about the same age as Aegon. The Daynes share certain physical traits with the Targaryens so it wouldn't be unrealistic to think both children would share at least a superficial likeness. Lady Dayne is a member of the royal household in the right period for a switch to take place. Martin has already foreshadowed this scenario in the switch of Gilly's baby with Mance's child and in the tactic of splitting up children to better the odds of safety (Bran and Rickon.) There is also the reaction of Ned when he sees the supposed Aegon laid out before the Iron Throne - "the boy ... the boy..." and Ashara's apparent suicide after Ned visits Starfall and delivers some news. Stack that up with the physical and mental characteristics of the Darkstar matching what we know of some Targaryens, and the foreshadowing of Arianne's musings of making children with him "as beautiful as dragonlords" what we get is a mish-mash of hints and possible red herrings that make for great crackpottery.

SPOILER: ADwD

Let me just say, as much as I like this theory, the idea that I think is much, much more likely for Aegon is that Martin refuses to quash the idea of the child being alive because he wants to use the possibility, but not the reality, latter on in the series. I really think Aegon was killed at King's Landing. Think of the Mummer's Dragon and it becomes clear why GRRM might want to keep the possibility open.

btw, please don't anyone tell me Darkstar is too old to be Aegon. If anyone can really show me that he is older than the 18-19 year old that Aegon would be at the end of AFfC, then I'll blow the theory up myself. Until then I've been through too many debates based on assumptions that aren't borne out in the text.

[Piper]

That has got to be one of the most creative pieces of crackpottery I've read!

While there is nothing to disprove it - other than common sense, there is also not a hint that it is true. At least my own pitiful efforts around the Darkstar have some little support in the story.

I think there needs to be awards given monthly to different kinds of crackpot theories that appear in these pages. There are the kind that are not only outrageous, but are also easily disproved (may I suggest the "Magic Wire & Gorget" award?), and those that are outrageous in there is no support for them in text, but also no way to disprove them (the "Momma Ned" award?), and finally those that have some support in the text, but little possibility of being true (the "Aegon the Darkstar" award?) What do you think?

Apparently you don't wander over to the general chatter section of these boards, there you will find theories even crazier, because they actualy focus on the real world.

For example, apparently Wales doesn't exist. Really, it doesn't.

[SFDanny]

Apparently you don't wander over to the general chatter section of these boards, there you will find theories even crazier, because they actualy focus on the real world.

For example, apparently Wales doesn't exist. Really, it doesn't.

No, I haven't ventured in as yet. Should I take this as a warning?

btw, all my maps still have Wales shown on them. Though perhaps it is part of a grand cartographer's conspiracy. Having never been there to test the theory out, should I keep my mind open?

[Dayne's Sword]

the tourney at harrenahall was when Cat was betrothed to Brandon correct?

therefore Ned could impale whoever he wanted. (Ashara).

for some reason there is a baby swap. so when he sees "baby Ageon" he sees his own kid tells Ashara. she dies.

Aegon is around somewhere (darkstar prick) or someone else?

R+L = J still stays true

this keeps everone happy with their theories. and Ned did have a thing with Ashara but it was before he was with Cat.

SF Danny gave me the idea. yet if Gregor did do in Ed's son. why didnt he go ape shit and get the bastard? granted he cant come out and confess. assination isnt so much Ned's way but he must of wanted to do something or at least tried for a measure of vengence?

[SFDanny]

the tourney at harrenahall was when Cat was betrothed to Brandon correct?

I'm not clear, off the top of my head, if the betrothal takes place before or after, but Cat and Ned are a long way away from any obligation to each other.

therefore Ned could impale whoever he wanted. (Ashara).

Without the need of even a momentary guilt pang.

for some reason there is a baby swap. so when he sees "baby Ageon" he sees his own kid tells Ashara. she dies.

Aegon is around somewhere (darkstar prick) or someone else?

R+L = J still stays true

this keeps everone happy with their theories. and Ned did have a thing with Ashara but it was before he was with Cat.

All true.

SF Danny gave me the idea. yet if Gregor did do in Ed's son. why didnt he go ape shit and get the bastard? granted he cant come out and confess. assination isnt so much Ned's way but he must of wanted to do something or at least tried for a measure of vengence?

At this point he doesn't know which knight did the deed, but rather knows the Lannisters - Tywin and Jaime - are the most to blame. It would explained the hatred for the Lannisters that he has before anything happens in AGoT, wouldn't it? Afterwards, there is the matter of his pledge to Lyanna to keep everything quiet that prevents any action. Then he has Jon to think about.

It's all likely not true, but fun to think about.

[Mezeh]

The two theories are mixed in this thread.

There is a very popular R+L=J theory that has pretty much evidence to favor it.

The only problems are:

1. If the theory is true then Jon’s parentage should be proved on some point to Dany at least. So far there is no possible way since the only person who should know about Jon for sure – Howland Reed for Dany is just a former rebel.

2. Ashara Dayne somehow mixed into the story and R+L=J theory does not explain how. Neither could it explain her suicide.

The baby Aegon switching theory is much less popular thought ADWD spoilers made it much more likely to be true then it ever was before.

Another trouble that if both theories are trues then we will end with two sons of Rhaegar alive and the plot only needs one.

[SFDanny]

The two theories are mixed in this thread.

There is a very popular R+L=J theory that has pretty much evidence to favor it.

The only problems are:

1. If the theory is true then Jon’s parentage should be proved on some point to Dany at least. So far there is no possible way since the only person who should know about Jon for sure – Howland Reed for Dany is just a former rebel.

2. Ashara Dayne somehow mixed into the story and R+L=J theory does not explain how. Neither could it explain her suicide.

The baby Aegon switching theory is much less popular thought ADWD spoilers made it much more likely to be true then it ever was before.

Another trouble that if both theories are trues then we will end with two sons of Rhaegar alive and the plot only needs one.

It depends on where GRRM wants to go with a "two son" scenario, doesn't it? It Jon is the son who chooses honor and duty over vengeance, what would be the role of a son who chooses otherwise? What if one is mad in the same way Aerys and Viserys were? Would the two have to fight? We know the dragon has three heads, and it might make sense to have two be brothers. Believe me, Mezeh, I really don't think any of this will happen, because I think Aegon is dead as a doornail these last 17 years of Westerosi time, but I don't think plot considerations rule out Martin going down this path.

[Maybe]

That would only be true if Rheagar had ever been crowned. Instead, he bought it on the trident. That would put Viserys next in line of succession, before any of Rheagar's children. If you allow women to be in the line of succession, that would put her ahead of Rheagar's children as well.

Not true, if Jon is legitimate then he is next in line for the throne. We can see this in action when Ser Stevron Frey dies and his son Ser Ryman becomes heir to the twins. The only reason the Dance of Dragons happened was because a female would have inherited if she was in the line of succession and we don't have that at play here.

[Mezeh]

It depends on where GRRM wants to go with a "two son" scenario, doesn't it? It Jon is the son who chooses honor and duty over vengeance, what would be the role of a son who chooses otherwise? What if one is mad in the same way Aerys and Viserys were? Would the two have to fight? We know the dragon has three heads, and it might make sense to have two be brothers. Believe me, Mezeh, I really don't think any of this will happen, because I think Aegon is dead as a doornail these last 17 years of Westerosi time, but I don't think plot considerations rule out Martin going down this path.

You’ve misunderstand me a bit. What disturbs me is that two hidden sons of Rhaegar not just two sons. One would be more then enough who would be two many. The book has enough mysteries and secrets already so two mysteries connected to Rhaegar would be too many.

I’m quite convinced that Dany is not a lone surviving Targaryen as she thought. But GRRM stated that the third dragon head should not necessary be Targaryen. So once again we need only one. Yet there are other possibilities too. For example who said that all Targaryens would be dragon riders? Viserys after all was a Targ but he clearly wasn’t a dragon head.

Another thing I’m convinced of is that GRRM is not yet done with Argon. Otherwise there would not be a reason to avoid any answers about his fate. After all GRRM clearly stated that his sister is dead. But of course there are some possibilities here too. There could be fake Aegon as like as real one.

[The Wolf Maid]

Prove that I'm wrong.

I want to have whatever crack/booze you're having, Mad Monkey. Truly a classic theory.

(wait, isn't there already a thread for this in the General section?)

[Mezeh]

Not true, if Jon is legitimate then he is next in line for the throne. We can see this in action when Ser Stevron Frey dies and his son Ser Ryman becomes heir to the twins. The only reason the Dance of Dragons happened was because a female would have inherited if she was in the line of succession and we don't have that at play here.

More exactly if Jon is legitimate he is before Dany in the line of succession but he is still behind Aegon if he is still alive.

However we have a trouble here as I already stated above. Who will confirm Jon’s right if he has them? Reed is no good. He may know that Jon is Lyanna’s son but even if he knows about her marriage he would not be able to prove it. And if there any surviving witness of Lyanna’s marriage they never seen Jon.

[The Wolf Maid]

However we have a trouble here as I already stated above. Who will confirm Jon’s right if he has them? Reed is no good. He may know that Jon is Lyanna’s son but even if he knows about her marriage he would not be able to prove it. And if there any surviving witness of Lyanna’s marriage they never seen Jon.

That is the big problem, isn't it? Who will confirm Jon's legitimacy (if he is legitimate) or that he's even a Targ (aside from Howland Reed)?

Off-hand, crackpot guesses:

1. The dragons (or at least one of them): If he has Targ blood, maybe the dragons would be more...kindly disposed to him?

2. Maybe there's a token/object/document that would identify him as a Targ hidden somewhere, like in the Stark crypts?

3. Varys?

4. Those involved at the marriage or birth (septon, midwife, Wylla, etc.?)

[Mezeh]

1. 1. Well dragons apparently liked Ben Plumm but it didn’t impressed Dany strongly. Besides even if they could sense dragon blood I ready doubt that they could distinguish between legitimate and bastard blood.

2. This is an interesting idea. Where is something in the crypts no doubts. Something hidden in Lyanna’s coffin?

3. Varys showed no interest to Jon so far. He should if he knows.

4. Common people witness is not good enough when succession is involved.

[The Wolf Maid]

1. 1. Well dragons apparently liked Ben Plumm but it didn’t impressed Dany strongly. Besides even if they could sense dragon blood I ready doubt that they could distinguish between legitimate and bastard blood.

2. This is an interesting idea. Where is something in the crypts no doubts. Something hidden in Lyanna’s coffin?

3. Varys showed no interest to Jon so far. He should if he knows.

4. Common people witness is not good enough when succession is involved.

1. True, but at least that would prove Jon as a Targ (if the dragons really, really like him).

2. Jon has been having dreams about the crypt since he was young.

3. Or maybe he doesn't want to show any interest, knowing how dangerous it would be to do so. But he is aware of Jon.

4. Just out of curiosity, why not? If it's a septon or a maester who would confirm it, why would someone just dismiss it because they're 'common'? I guess it would depend on the person who they need to convince. If it's Dany, I think she'll hear them out.

[Demonic Weasel]

There is a very popular R+L=J theory that has pretty much evidence to favor it.

Not quite evidence. There are lots of hints that make the theory very probable. But not evidence.