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Eddard lives!


Reestlord

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Interesting thought: what if Ned has somehow survived and goes to the Wall? He would then be living there by the grace of Jon instead of the other way around, as it was at Winterfell. It would be an interesting reversal. I understand that there is about a 0.01% chance of this, or anything like this, actually happening in any way, but it would still be interesting.

I think if Ned had survived and made it to the Wall, he would have been chosen Lord Commander rather than Jon.

But actually, since he would have been going with Yoren, and we all know what happened to Yoren's group, it's anyone's guess where Ned might have ended up.

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Although I too am a lowly commoner, I must say that Ned is most definately dead. I poorly paraphrase Jaime when I say "with poison no one may know how I died however it will be difficult to say that my head simply fell off"

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First off let me say, I liked Ned, fool that he was. I don't think he always made the right choices but hindsight is 20/20. The idea of Ned being alive doesnt fit the pattern we have seen so far. GRRM has set himself apart by being willing to kill off characters we are fond of. He doesn't hide from it. We have seen characters come back from what WE thought was death. I'm thinking of Davos, Jamie and to a lesser extent Arya (when Sandor hit her with the axe I was worried). It alwways ended with a scene where the reader would consider death a likely outcome. I think the vanished Tyrek Lannister may be scene again (not as a POV though) When a character dies he dies no hiding it. Robert died. Kahl Drogo died. Even minor characters like Jory Cassel and Dacey Mormont flat out died. They displayed Ned's head to the crowds of the ctiy. This was done in history to prove absolutely that the dead person was in fact dead and would not be coming back. As for a returning POV Theon has my vote for the same reason, we saw what looked like his certain demise but cannot be 100%.

If ned comes back its only because some of his parts got worked into UnGregor instead of going North with the silent sisters and I think that is pretty unlikely too. Next we are going to hear that Rhaegar isn't dead either, he washed up on the quiet isle did some light reading and will be one of the heads of the dragon...

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Yeah. Actually, it was Benjen Stark, that's why he is nowhere to be found.
More I think about it, more I like this twist.

Benjen Stark is killed by the Others, raised and given a wisdom of Three-Eyes Crow. He gets a profecy about his brother being executed soon and hurries South to save him. His appearance should be much alike Ned's and he has a lot of time for proper make-up. He infiltrates dungeons (through magic or with Varis' help) and replaces Ned. He is beheaded but doesn't die from that because he is, in fact, dead already. At night he replaces his body with some other (Sirio Forel's?) and returns to North just in time to meet Bran. He uses some other head now, so Bran doesn't recognize him.

Meanwhile, Ned stays in dungeons. Somebody teaches him how to change his appearance and he takes a name of Jagen H'gar. Remember Jagen never says Arya he is a FM? And kind man isn't lying when he tells Arya he doesn't know any Jagen.

Not that I believe a word of this, but it was funny to invent.

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More I think about it, more I like this twist.

Benjen Stark is killed by the Others, raised and given a wisdom of Three-Eyes Crow. He gets a profecy about his brother being executed soon and hurries South to save him. His appearance should be much alike Ned's and he has a lot of time for proper make-up. He infiltrates dungeons (through magic or with Varis' help) and replaces Ned. He is beheaded but doesn't die from that because he is, in fact, dead already. At night he replaces his body with some other (Sirio Forel's?) and returns to North just in time to meet Bran. He uses some other head now, so Bran doesn't recognize him.

Meanwhile, Ned stays in dungeons. Somebody teaches him how to change his appearance and he takes a name of Jagen H'gar. Remember Jagen never says Arya he is a FM? And kind man isn't lying when he tells Arya he doesn't know any Jagen.

Not that I believe a word of this, but it was funny to invent.

I reckon you should definitely post these ideas in this thread about Crackpot theories! :)

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Ned is dead. That's simply a fact. Your 'theory' doesn't even get off the ground, I'm afraid.

First, there's no motivation for Varys to substitute Ned for anyone else. Second, Sansa clearly sees Ned well enough to be sure of who he is. She is not far enough away for the impersonation to work, and neither are several other characters who know him. Third, no, Ned being dishevelled and emaciated does not make it 'impossible to recognise him', nowhere near. Fourth, where did Varys even get someone whose build etc. are close enough to Ned to pass for him? Some random guy off the streets would not do, not without a great deal of very specific coaching. Fifth, if the patsy was not supposed to die, the imposture couldn't have lasted. Sixth, the whole plan is harebrained and risky, not Varys' hallmarks. Seventh, why would Ned go along with this and not tell his family he was alive for nearly two years, when his son has gone to war to avenge him and his wife is nearly mad with grief?

I could go on. This is simply a non-starter. This is ASOIAF, not The Prisoner of Zenda.

Mormont, I pretty much agree with most of what you say, except point 1.

If you believe that Varys wanted to bring back the Targaryen dynasty, I could easily see a motive for Varys helping remove Ned and sending him to Dany. Exactly what he did with Tyrion...Ned is well regarded as a man of honor and could bring the Northlands to Dany's side, he's a kickass general, certainly the equal of Tywin.

However, the biggest problem with the "Ned isn't dead" theory is that if Ned isn't dead, what the fuck has he been doing for the last 2 or 3 years? Clearly, it doesn't take that long to find Dany (note how long it took Barristan). I'm afraid as interesting as this theory is, it makes exactly no sense.

Additionally, if you look at GRRM's comments, he clearly thinks it makes sense to play for keeps. If people die and come back all the time, then it makes the whole series much less serious and the risk of death no longer is a powerful writing tool. He said he always thought Tolkien should have kept Gandalf dead, and you think he'd really bring Ned back to life?

DK

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If you believe that Varys wanted to bring back the Targaryen dynasty, I could easily see a motive for Varys helping remove Ned and sending him to Dany. Exactly what he did with Tyrion...Ned is well regarded as a man of honor and could bring the Northlands to Dany's side, he's a kickass general, certainly the equal of Tywin.

Wouldn't work. I don't have the exact quote in front of me but Dany has grown up hearing stories of Eddard Stark, the man with a heart as cold as ice. She thinks of him as being one short step below Robert and Jaime and probably wouldn't trust him. Selmy had the 'I served your father and grandfather before the rebellion' thing going for him and Tyrion has the excuse of being too young to have played a part in the war. Ned now... no chance.

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Add me to the list of folks who think Ned is well and truly dead.

However...

I actually can see a motive both for Varys keeping him alive and for Varys keeping him hidden and/or drugged etc. so that he could not communicate with anyone else. Lots of crackpot theories have floated regarding the letter that Ned asked Varys if he might send if Ned wrote it. It has been surmised that the letter was to Jon and would reveal the secret of R+L=J or some other secret pertaining to Jon's birth. If the secret revealed is big enough and valuable enough, I'd assume Varys would want it and would want it revealed on his own terms. The letter is good evidence, but a live Ned Stark who could testify to its veracity might be even better.

In any case, reading new (I hadn't heard this one before) is a more pleasant way to spend my time waiting for ADwD than rehashing R+L another ten zillion times.

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Lowly first time commoner weighing in here, but as much as the Ned is alive idea is intriguing, it strikes me as one too many undead Starks running around the storyline. Not to mention if Varys were aware of such a delicious secret, I doubt he would be able to resist dropping some veiled hint of such to Tyrion. So I've gotta get on the Ned is dead bandwagon. Now a wolf headed Greyrobb monster returning to wreak revenge on the Freys... :P

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Hasn't GRRM flat-out said Ned is dead a few times or is that just my imagination?

Yeah, I think so. He's definitely said that he thought Gandalf should've stayed dead in LOTR, so Ned isn't coming back.

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I believe Ned is dead as well. But as to who to who could've died in his place, IMO a faceless man would work well. As I haven't read any Arya chapters recently, this may not be right, but FM generally view death as a good thing, right? Therefore after the training they receive they could easily convince anyone they're Ned, with Ned's help, and he'd most likely die for a good price for his guild or whatever you'll call it. But IIRC from that tyrion chapter where he sends Slynt to the wall, Joffrey sentencing Ned to death was premeditated, and supposedly out of Varys' hearing. TBH I can't see Joffrey being smart enough to keep something like that quiet from Varys, even with Littlefinger's or Slynt's help.

Meh. Either way, I think Ned's dead. I think bringing him back wouldn't be good for how people view the series.

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It could be possible to bring Ned back, of course. But, what could be a reason to do so? Bringing Ned back would definitely cheapen the whole series. After all, many of the readers find the Ned's death as a defining point for the series. IMHO, AGOT looked to me like a medieval mystery thriller until that moment. After that, I read rest of AGOT and whole ACOK, running thoruogh the pages and thinking: "OMG, this can't be". By ASOS I learned to live without Ned and turned to Robb, whose death didn't shock me nearly as much. I must have gotten used to it.

So, as I said, Ned's death IS a defining point. Bringing him back would make ASOIAF look like a cheap soap opera.

After all, it seems that we have a general understanding here that the returning POV is Theon. One of the GRRM's blog updates mentions marriage scenes and most of boarders think those are referring to Ramsey/"Arya".

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