Goodkind XX: Pitying the Guilty

[PhelanArcetus]

Oh, brilliant.

That's a horrible way of handling absolute morality. Sure, these people who are wrong believe they're right. That's because they're too stupid to investigate and recognize the clearly obvious Truth: the morality of their culture is flat out wrong, they were lied to, and Richard / Terry's morality is right.

I've got a fair amount of time right now at work, so if you hit me with a URL (PM it if you want to keep it out of the thread and try to avoid a deluge) I'll give a shot at some rational discussion.

[Jaxom 1974]

a perpetual about face at the behest of Richard's yap.

And we have another potential thread title for down the road, people. The hits just keep on coming!

[PhelanArcetus]

And we have another potential thread title for down the road, people. The hits just keep on coming!

But they killed CBS FM and replaced it with that retarded Jack FM. Sadly, the hits do not just keep on coming anymore.

The kicks to the jaw, on the other hand...

[Jaxom 1974]

But they killed CBS FM and replaced it with that retarded Jack FM. Sadly, the hits do not just keep on coming anymore.

The kicks to the jaw, on the other hand...

Touche.

***

That being said, Goodkind XX has produced some excellent conversation. Though I think I gotta find the link to Min's blog and check out what's the what over there.

[The Real Will]

I know that PA asked for the link in a private message, but I thought we might as well have all the reference material out here in public, in case anyone else is interested.

The Facebook conversation begins here although people will need to join Facebook to view it.

The Goodkind section of Min's site is here. The conversation is in the comments section at the bottom of the page.

[PhelanArcetus]

I'm on to the facebook, and I'm slowly composing a post I hope will be intelligent.

[Red Templar]

That's what these people are trying. That's what Richard is trying. Now, you can tell someone who knows nothing about any morality that you have the answer, and here it is in simple terms. That someone is either a child, or retarded. When you're dealing with someone who has at least average human intelligence, that doesn't work.

I think this is a good point.

I have this pet theory - I firmly believe that Goodkind is dim-witted. He's not the drooling sort of mouth-breathing dumb, but he is certainly not prone to deep thinking, either. He strikes me as one of those guys that thinks heavily about something, possibly getting past the first layer or two of the onion skin, and then loudly proclaims to anyone within earshot that he has The Answer. Unfortunately, even the most moderate thinkers have heard it before and roughly dismiss him, or, even worse, ignore him altogether. This pisses the man off to no end. He then flies into a rage of name-calling fits, declaring that all those who do not agree with him are evil, stupid, morally corrupt, and not old enough to read his books.

Whenever I get into a debate with someone, the moment they start calling me names is the moment that I know I have won. And it is ridiculously easy to get Goodkind to start the name-calling game. In fact, I've read entire online interviews with the man that are really nothing but a long string of insults and condescension. Worst part is, it's his fans that he is insulting.

I'd respect the man a lot more if he just stood up for what he believes in. I still wouldn't agree with him, but at least he'd be spending more time intellectually, honestly, and openly defending his points, and less time hurling insults and sneers. This alone would give the man more credibility, but I honestly believe the man is not intellectually capable of doing so.

[rado907]

Dim-witted? That's too soft for Tairy. Goodkind is the kind of detestable demagogue that preaches simple hatred and self-righteousness. I haven't read Mein Kampf, but I suspect there are parallels between it and the yeard's opus. Some of Tairys crap smacks of nazism.

And it's not as if the yeard is an evil genius bent on poisoning the minds of the youth. Goodkind's books are stupid. They are full of plotholes and deus ex and porn and senseless violence. His books are cheap in a multitude of ways. The guy is a pathetic, moronic hack that made it through good marketing on the part of his publishers, and now thinks he really has something to say and people buy his ideas and not the covers of cool guys with swords and dragons and hot bitches clad in red leather. Another big reason for people buying his trash is that many can't drop a fantasy series because of the time invested in it. If you've read 6 (or even as few as 2!) books, you feel compelled to read on, because you've dedicated so much time into the series.

On the positive side, educated, reasonable people can't read his junk.

On the negative, this means his main audience is kids, and they are impressionable. I read Tairy's ramblings around 15, and for a while had weird ideas about justice. That's why the guys you argue with on facebook appear inarticulate. They are kids.

[The Pita]

Tairy, I think, is someone like me.

I'll think for a half an hour about a subject, and then grumble and say "I really don't like potatoes."

And I read it when I was 13, and kept quoting his metaphores. I realised people were looking at me streangely when I kept muttering "hunt those fucking rabbits" so I went on a Tairy-free diet for a while, engorging myself in the stupidity of Redwall for a while, until I found more books in the series. I later found out about AGoT.

So, people, kill those fucking rabbits. I hate wolves.

[Liver and Onions]

This will probably only be understood by a few gamers, but you know, for some reason, seeing Goodkind XX, my first thought was:

"HEAVEN OR HELL! LET'S ROCK!".

Then Richard in front of a mob of peace protestors destroying potemkin by putting melon-sized holes in him, the filthy communist.

F,D,DF+P ! Eat moral clarity!

Will Richard's Instant Kill move be a super-speech on moral clarity that bores the opponent to death?

On another note, who'd want to see Sword of Truth fighting game? You'd get to beat up all your least favorite characters.

[Zap Rowsdower]

Someone asks him if other people could be coaxed to leave the Order in the same way that Nicci did and he basically says no. Nicci could understand the error of her ways because she was amazingly special and questioned things. Most everyone else in the order would never be capable of that level of open mindedness. You see, Richard's (and Goodkind's) position is the only logical result of rational free inquiry. Everyone who apposes him is a closed minded hick.

I changed it to how it should read:

Someone asks him if other people could be coaxed to leave the Order in the same way that Nicci did and he basically says no. Nicci could understand the error of her ways because she had amazingly big and pretty boobs. Most everyone else in the order would never be capable of getting such awesome boobs. You see, Richard's (and Goodkind's) position is the logical result of being such big boobs themselves. Everyone who apposes him is a flat chested commie lesbian.

In conclusion: Boobs.

[Piper]

On another note, who'd want to see Sword of Truth fighting game? You'd get to beat up all your least favorite characters.

Sounds fun, but I don't get how it would work. Whoever plays as Richard would win, and wouldn't the world just collapse into itself if it was a Richard versus Richard fight?

[WLU]

Sounds fun, but I don't get how it would work. Whoever plays as Richard would win, and wouldn't the world just collapse into itself if it was a Richard versus Richard fight?

Silly rabbit, a Richard v. Richard fight would go on forever, since both are immortal and invulnerable.

I've been meaning to ask this for a while - anyone read Matthew Woodring Stover/Acts of Caine (Heroes Die and Blade of Tyshalle)? He's got a lot of parallels with Goodkind (some explicit philosophy, lots of graphic violence, some naughty sex), but where Goodkind is hamfisted and hackish, I remember Stover as being more subtle, with more insightful characters (though still eminently unlikable, but genuinely so) and thought put into his action sequences instead of 'he took his shirt off, then a war instantly broke out', completely lacking detail on what an actual fight would be like. No melon-sized holes or brainsplatter.

[The Wolf Maid]

The Sword of Truth, by Tairy Goodkind. I think we've got a title for Goodkind XXI!

Pestiferous bandages for your moral ouchies.

Ohhhh. I can use that as a sig? Or as a title?

Someone asks him if other people could be coaxed to leave the Order in the same way that Nicci did and he basically says no. Nicci could understand the error of her ways because she was amazingly special and questioned things. Most everyone else in the order would never be capable of that level of open mindedness. You see, Richard's (and Goodkind's) position is the only logical result of rational free inquiry. Everyone who apposes him is a closed minded hick.

...Presumption and 'pre-cognition' again! As if Richard could tell what was in the people's mind and hearts and be absolutely right about it. He must be psychic as well.

[Zap Rowsdower]

I'm still plodding through "Soul of the Fire" but I just game across this yeardtastic description of Richard from Beata's perspective that I had to share:

The man riding on the Mother Confessor's Right was something else entirely. Beata had never seen such a man, all dressed in black, with a golden cape billowing out behind. The sight took her breath.

Beata wondered if it could be the man she'd hear was to marry the Mother Confessor: Lord Rahl. He certainly looked a lord. He was just about the most imposing-looking man Beata had ever seen.

***snip snip snip***

The Lord Rahl was coming up the stairs. Beata pulled the horn from her lips and backed against the railing. There was something about him, just his presence, that took her breath. Not even the Minister of Culture himself, before he did what he did, struck her with such a feeling of awe as did this man, the Lord Rahl.

It wasn't just his size, his broad shoulders, his penetrating gray eyes, or his black and gold outfit with the broad belt holding gold worked leather pouches and strange symbols. It was his presence.

He didn't look proper and fancy like the Ander officials, like Dalton Campbell or the Minister of Culture, but rather, he looked noble, purposeful, and at the same time... dangerous.

Deadly.

He was kind enough looking, and handsome, but she just knew that if he ever turned those gray eyes on her in anger, she might be struck dead by their intensity.

If ever there was a man who looked as if he could be the husband of the Mother Confessor, this was the man.

-Terry Goodkind, Soul of the Fire.

[Piper]

Silly rabbit, a Richard v. Richard fight would go on forever, since both are immortal and invulnerable.

Ah, but would not this answer imply that Richard, bringer of death, couldn't kill something? It's like the age old question, could God created a rock so large that He Himself could not move it, or could God microwave a burrito so hot He Himself could not eat it, only this question is more important.

[The Wolf Maid]

Richard Rahl: With Looks that Could Kill, Husband to the Mother Confessor. Uh, yeah.

He was kind enough looking, and handsome, but she just knew that if he ever turned those gray eyes on her in anger, she might be struck dead by their intensity.

:sick:

And I had just eaten lunch...

[The Real Will]

I have this pet theory - I firmly believe that Goodkind is dim-witted. He's not the drooling sort of mouth-breathing dumb, but he is certainly not prone to deep thinking

Dim-witted? That's too soft for Tairy. Goodkind is the kind of detestable demagogue that preaches simple hatred and self-righteousness.

But I think Red Templar is right. Goodkind is as obnoxious as he is (aside from deep seated psychological problems) because he really believes he has reach the depths of interlectual inquiry. Therefore, anyone who disagrees with him is still paddeling at the shallow end. It is inherant in his philosophy that once you comprehend it, you will agree with it, and so if he admits that the naysayers truely understand him then he would have to admit some flaws in his reasoning. The fact that his philosophy is reasonably easy to understand, that most of us get Richard's point within the first page of the monologue and occasionally before the great man even opens his mouth (although, there is the occasional suspense over which side of an arguement Richard will choose) doesn't enter Goodkind's mind because he had to fight so hard for these ideas.

There is nothing that agravates me more about the interviews I've seen with Goodkind or the conversations I've seen with his fans than the underlying (sometimes explicit) assumption that you don't even understand their basic premise.

[The Pita]

I've always wondered if Goodkind was gay after hearing him interviewed...

Can anyone elaborate?

Also, he seems a little obsessed with Rachel Kahlandt... Maybe she's a man?

[Myshkin]

There is nothing that agravates me more about the interviews I've seen with Goodkind or the conversations I've seen with his fans than the underlying (sometimes explicit) assumption that you don't even understand their basic premise.

These people have to believe that we "don't get it". Their devotion to the O'ist ideals set forth in the SOT series is so complete that they can't comprehend how someone might understand those ideals yet still find them abhorrent. If they admit that we understand the philosophy they will also have to admit that said philosophy is not divinely perfect.