Top Tier Fighters.

[TKO]

i belive rhaegar should swap with victarion, as he is only described as "able"

[Fraggle]

Jon Snow shouldn't be on anyone's list. He is a very good and very well-trained fighter for someone so young, but he's not Loras Tyrell. His focus and strength is on other things.

Basically, Jon gets his ass kicked from Castle Black to Eastwatch by Mance, and he damn well knows it. He also mentions at one point that even with Ghost and a Valyrian blade, Qhorin could have slit Jon's throat easy.

I love Jon. But he's not a top tier fighter by any means.

I agree he's not top tier, but I also don't think he's far off. I would say that Qhorin and Mance are top tier, second tier at worst - both are legends amongst the night's watch, and Mance is king beyond the wall - a position essentially held through martial strength. Jon seems able to more or less hold his own with Iron Emmett, reckoned the best surviving swordsman we've met from the NW, and goes up against multiple people sparring - the only other person we've seen do that is Garlan.

Jon I think is going to end up being there or thereabouts in the pecking order by the end. Bear in mind he's still only 15 or so when he goes up against Qhorin, and, what, late 16 when he fights Mance? He's going to be getting stronger and faster for a good 8 years from this point on, at least. (Just to clarify on this, the fact that Jaime is meant to have won a melee at 13 really, really annoys me. At least with Loras his principal ability is with the lance, where pure skill makes more of a difference. Teenage boys don't go into melees with grown warriors and come out on top unless by blind luck.)

FWIW, I think constructing a list like this is almost impossible. We simply have too little information about the characters, and a lot of what we do know is fairly conflicting. Brienne is able to hold off Jaime while unable to kill him, but then seems to have surprising trouble with Rorge, who seems unlikely to have any formal training, while wielding Valyrian steel (while the result is never in doubt, it takes a good while and sufficiently dominates her attention that Biter is able to blindside her completely when he pitches in). Similarly, Polliver soundly beats Sandor before being undone by a bench (granted he had the tickler to help him, but the 'Sandor's drunk' excuse never really rang true for me - it all happens too fast for that wine to make much difference, really). Oberyn has Gregor beaten, but essentially does so with a very specific strategy. We have very little idea of how good he is outside of that. Cross-culture differences make any comparison with Drogo and Syrio very difficult. Another problem is the lack of any real overlap between the fights - we've seen Bronn beat Vardis Egan, for example, but have no real idea how good Vardis was. We still haven't seen Areo in a real fight, and our information about the Greatjon, Lothor Brune, and a number of others is second hand at best. Hell, we rode shotgun with Ned for an entire book and still don't know how good he is, save to say that Yohn Royce beat him once. And bear in mind that all of that could be largely meaningless, since it's all based on isolated results, and an isolated fight is subject to chance.

That being said, I would say the following have earned the right to be called top tier, on the basis of their achievements over a significant period of time:

North of the Wall: Mance, Qhorin.

Westeros: Jaime, Barristan, Arthur Dayne, Gregor Clegane, Sandor Clegane (if we allow the 'he was drunk' excuse), Robert

Essos: Drogo,

Probables: Victarion, Andrik, Garlan, Loras (roughly in that order of likelihood)

Hard to tell: Jon, Emmett, Areo Hotah, Balon Swann, Bronn, Oberyn, Rhaegar, Syrio, Belwas, Brienne, Blackfish, Greatjon and any other Northerners on account of the complete lack of a 1st person perspective of them in combat, ever.

Probably incredibly badass in certain circumstances: Howland Reed

Could kill almost anyone on this list without really trying: Anguy

[Shane the Llama]

I am only going to include characters that we have seen in the books, so no Arthur Dayne, Aemon the Dragonknight, etc., and I won't take into account people's prior conditions; again, only what we have seen in the books, so no fit Robert or young Barristan.

Top Tier: Tie

Sandor Clegane: The Hound is certainly one of the best warriors seen in the books. He is a huge man, yet one of the quickest swordsman in the realm. He has demonstrated his ability to defeat larger opponents (Ned had the impression that the Hound was intentionally not killing the Mountain during their fight at the Hand's Tourney) and to defeat groups (both at the tavern and outside the Twins).

Jaime Lannister: The Kingslayer is, without a doubt, the most technically skilled swordsman in the books other than Barristan, who is old, and Syrio, whose style is impractical when facing an armoured knight. He may have been no more than an average commander, but Jaime still nearly ended Robb's Rebellion singlehandedly at the Whispering Woods, only failing because his sword became stuck in the body of a Karstark he killed. The only reason I do not place him in the top tier alone is due to the Hound's significant physical advantage and greater ability to fight through wounds.

Second Tier

1. Garlan Tyrell: Although Loras is the more acclaimed Tyrell fighter, he himself admits that Garlan is better with a sword. Garlan Tyrell routinely trains against three or four men at once, and slew many opponents during the Battle of the Blackwater. Also, Garlan is another of the warriors that gets a boost from his physical advantages; he is fairly large, as he wore Renly's armour in the battle. I suspect that Garlan is a top tier fighter, but I do not think he can be placed there before we see him fight.

2. Khal Drogo: Drogo was an elite warrior, the best of the Dothraki population, which must have numbered at least 100,000. He was a massive man who went his entire life without losing a single fight, and who survived countless battles and duels despite his culture's lack of armor or effective medicine. However, it is this culture that prevents Drogo, whose skills and physical attributes should easily place him within the top tier, from even toppin the second tier of fighters. His weaponry is primitive, his armor nonexistent, and his ability to use a variety of weapons nonexistent (due to a lack of the formal training that Westerosi nobles are granted). Even if Drogo were given Westerosi arms and armour in an attempt to level the playing field, he would be unable to utilize them effectively. On paper, Drogo is top tier material, but his equipment holds him back.

3. Gregor Clegane: The Mountain That Rides is, bar none, the strongest man in Westeros during the books, and perhaps ever. His reach is far greater than anyone else's, and his physical power makes a fight with him a dangerous prospect, even for far more skilled warriors, as one mistake means certain death. his attacks cannot be blocked by most combatants, so those that rely solely on their size and ability to take blows will fall to him easily, i.e. Victarion Greyjoy.

4. Bronn: Bronn is hard to place as a warrior. He seems highly competent, but has not faced another great fighter yet. However, his record indicates that he is an extremely capable swordsman, and this skill is augmented by his ability to properly analyze his opponents.

5. Barristan Selmy: Once tied with the Sword of the Morning in combat ability, Selmy is now an old man. His physical capabilities have deteriorated; however, his fight with the Titan's Bastard demonstrated that he remains an extraordinarily quick fighter, and that he still possesses enough strength to kill a man. His experience and combat record are, of course, second to none, and he has unsurpassed battle instincts due to the amount of combat he has seen.

6. Tie: Quorin Halfhand and Mance Rayder

Quorin Halfhand: Quorin's abilities in combat greatly surpass those of anyone else at the Wall. He is capable of improvisation during battle as well; when his fingers were severed, Quorin defeated the Wildling who took them by thrusting the bleeding stumps that remained into the opponent's eyes, blinding him. Quorin only directly demonstrated his martial skill once in the books, but it was impressive; being easily capable of defeating Jon Snow, wielding a Valyrian Steel sword, while Ghost chewed on his leg, is a noteworthy feat.

Mance Rayder: The King Beyond the Wall earned that title through feats of strength at arms. He defeated numerous other claimants to the position in battle, and was at least equal to, if not better than, Quorin Halfhand during his time on the Wall. Mance also soundly defeated Jon Snow in A Dance With Dragons, demonstrating that he was, at the time, the best warrior at the Wall, and perhaps in the entire North.

7. Oberyn Martell: The Red Viper is a difficult warrior to rank. He has a fairly lengthy record of combats, but he is only ever seen in a fight once, when he lost to the Mountain. However, Oberyn had essentially won the fight prior to his death, and only lost due to a desire to make Clegane confess his crimes. Despite Oberyn's clear superiority in his fight with the Mountain, I don't feel that he was actually remarkably better. He was certainly somewhat superior to the Mountain, but I think Gregor was the perfect opponent for Oberyn's combat style, and that Gregor would do better against many people on this list than Oberyn would. Regardless, Oberyn must be regarded as an excellent warrior, and his ranking may not reflect his actual skill level due to a lack of information.

8. Loras Tyrell: Loras may not be Garlan's equal as a swordsman, but this topic is about top tier fighters, and Loras has demonstrated a variety of combat skills. He is excellent with a variety of weapons, including the sword, morningstar, and poleaxe. He is also one of the best jousters in the realm. Despite his defeat at the hands of Brienne in the Bitterbridge tourney, I am fairly confident that Loras is better than her. If they had been using real weapons, he would have killed her several times before she tackled him and drew her dirk.

Third Tier

1. Syrio Forel

Syrio is low on my list not due to any lack of skill on his part, but due to the impracticality of his fighting style when facing armored opponents. Although there are a couple of warriors listed above Syrio that I feel he could defeat, they could in turn defeat many that he could not simply due to the extreme difficulty of fighting men in plate armour with the waterdancing techniques he employs.

2. Brienne of Tarth/Strong Belwas

Belwas has a much more extensive record, and I feel that he would slay more men in battle, but if it came to a duel Brienne would win as soon as he allowed her to strike him.

3. Balon Swann

4. Victarion Greyjoy

5. Lothor Brune

Brune may belong much higher on this list, as his feats at the Battle of the Blackwater were very impressive, but I don't think there is enough information to validate a high ranking for him yet.

6. Jon Snow

7. Jorah Mormont

8. Beric Dondarrion

9. Greatjon Umber

10. Bronze Yohn Royce

11. Iron Emmett

12. Eddard Stark

13. Jory Cassel

14. Asha Greyjoy

Not Included Due to Lack of Information/Certainty: Lyn Corbray, Areo Hotah, Andrik the Unsmiling, Black Lorrhen, Dagmer Cleftjaw, Brynden Tully, Shagga, Timmett, Gerold Dayne, Thoros of Myr, Strongboar, Harras Harlaw, Randyll Tarly.

[Grimwolfe]

remove armor, straight up skill, jaime (pre loss), oberyn, barristan

[Kittyhat]

Who's Gerold Dayne? If he's the Darkstar, you're setting yourself up for a world of hurt, Hound. See the Darkstar hate threads if you don't believe me.

As for your list, I would agree, except I would flipflop Hotah and Brienne. She fought Jaime to a draw overpowered and began beating the shit out of Jaime under tenuous circumstances: while she was handicapped by having to avoid killing him and he was handicapped as well because he was shackled and had been imprisoned for months. I'd put in her the seond, maybe third tier.

Fixed that for you.