Top Tier Fighters.

[madkasel]

I thought Brienne's flashback to the melee showed that even she thought it was somewhat of a fluke and that she fought with inspired anger that day.

She's good, yes. But top tier, no way. I think even she would admit that.

[Reskyr]

And Asha? Come on. Victarion would wipe the floor with her. We have ABSOLUTELY no direct evidence that she can fight well! She's a captain, but that's as much as we know. Also unlike Brienne she is slim and beautiful, not muscular. Not gonna be a top-teir fighter, or even second, EVER, simply because she's a woman. I'm sorry, I'm one too, and that's how I know we're freaking weak compared to any man. She can probably stand back and throw knives and whatnot, maybe slip her sword into guys that aren't paying attention, but one on one against any of the above (or any good fighter) she'd be DESTROYED.

I don't see any evidence that she could hold her own against a top tier fighter (or any fighter for that matter--we get a lot more bravado from her than action sequences). That said, she shouldn't be discounted solely because she's a woman. I've fought in the SCA and done some sparring with western martial arts groups against woman, and while it's true that they are generally weaker and have less muscle mass, there is more to fighting than simply overpowering an opponent. Speed, intelligence, range control and proper technique can go a long way toward closing the gap with a stronger opponent. The SCA/WMA do not necessarily equate with actual medieval combat, given that it is training and not to the death, but it still helps illustrate why the best fighter isn't necessarily the biggest or strongest. I don't think a well-trained woman would be automatically destroyed going against a middling fighter or even a "good" one.

That said, I concede that a freakishly strong, thick skinned wench like Brienne would still probably have the best chance

[Andhaira]

I don't think that was Andrik. That was one of the new Shield Lords who defeated seven knights one at a time. Seven unknowns. I can't remember the name at the moment, but it was in the Victarion chapter were he is at Eurons feast at Harlaw. A Drumm maybe?

[Oathkeeper]

I thought Brienne's flashback to the melee showed that even she thought it was somewhat of a fluke and that she fought with inspired anger that day. She's good, yes. But top tier, no way. I think even she would admit that.

[Ran]

Top tier fighters, who are still among the living, in no particular order:

• Jaime Lannister (prior to the loss of his hand)

• Sandor Clegane

• Gregor Clegane (probably way down in terms of technical ability, but his massive size and strength , surprising speed despit that, and tolerance for pain make up for it in most situations -- but not, necessarily, in one-on-one combats against intelligent, nimble opponents of significant skill)

• Garlan Tyrell (his deeds on the Blackwater, and his habit of practicing against three or four men at a time, is fairly notable)

• Loras Tyrell (only Garlan did better at the Blackwater)

• Barristan Selmy (may have lost a step or two in his increasing age, but still able to beat the snot out of most anyone, on a good day)

• Syrio (if he's alive)

• Areo Hotah (just from his thoughts on his ability, I think he's pretty top notch; he doesn't seem the sort to exaggerate, and we know he's battle-tested thanks to those scars he's earned in service)

• Strong Belwas (surprisingly nimble and fast for someone so bulky, and obviously very skilled)

To be seen:

• Daario Naharis (Talks a big game, but we've yet to see it)

• Gerold Dayne (the most dangerous man in Dorne, now that the Red Viper is dead)

• Lyn Corbray (allegedly the best swordsman in the Vale, and another one who started as something of a prodigy; not just a duellist, but proven in battle, as well. Has a Valyrian steel sword, too, which always helps)

• Andrik the Unsmiling (a giant of a man, and the most feared fighting man in the Iron Islands now)

• Bronze Yohn Royce (a famous champion, but also an aged one; don't know just how good he is these days, or whether he was really ever in the very top tier)

Second-tier fighters, still among the living, in no particular order:

• Brienne of Tarth (this is a tough call; I had her in the top tier prior to AFfC, but as noted her thoughts regarding her performance at Bitterbridge suggests .... not that her victory against Loras was a fluke, but it was one of those circumstances which Barristan cites as something that can completely turn a fight around; if he hadn't had any roses on his arms or armor, would she have fought quite so hard? And someone who has sparred with her, and who has at least witnessed both Loras and Brienne fighting, suggests that Loras is an obviously better swordsman than she is -- even though swordsmanship isn't really Loras's strongsuit. Still, I think she's towards the top of the second tier, and certainly capable of defeating anyone in the top tier on a good day)

• Victarion Greyjoy

• Bronn Stone

• Addam Marbrand (an excellent swordsman by reputation, a bold captain who charges into a fight, etc.)

• Dagmer Cleftjaw (still feared, even if he's been overshadowed by Andrik the Unsmiling and lost a step or two due to aging)

• Harras Harlaw (don't know the skill of those knights he defeated in succession -- they may all have been mediocre -- but he's clearly pretty good; though perhaps not as good as Victarion, given Victarion's recollection of their sparring in their youths)

  To be seen:

• Brynden Tully (famous from his youth for his exploits on the Stepstones ... but he's aged, and how far his abilities have eroded is a quetion; not enough to keep him from plunging into battle, but still, I suspect he's not quite as well-preserved as Barristan)

• Randyll Tarly (a formidable fighter, apparently, and fearless in battle -- but that doesn't really tell us where he stands in comparison to those we've seen. And he hasn't been held up as a great fighter in the way that any of the first tier people seem to have been)

I'm sure I'm missing some others.

[Happy Ent]

Interesting. Has there every been any remark on Randyll as a fighter (as opposed to a general/sub-commmander, where he clearly is one of the best ever)?

[Gregor Clegane Has a Posse]

What's the evidence for Jorah? I don't recall him fighting all that much/well. He talks about how he was never that great, except for that ONE tournament where he somehow beat everybody. I think you need slightly more consistancy than that be a top tear fighter. Plus he's like 45 years old now. Kind of past his prime...

[Yougottawanna]

It's true that there's no evidence Asha is a good fighter. Kind of strange to have her on a list if you ask me. Same with Areo Hotah, who acts badass but all we've seen from him in combat is cutting down an already severly wounded Oakheart.

"Anyone who thinks Drogo and a dothraki would be at a HUGE disadvantage due to wearing no armor, clearly needs to brush up on history."

Dothraki =/= Mongols, who did wear armor by the way and were actually very very good at siegecraft and taking cities, at least after their conquest of northern china. I don't think the two peoples should be compared except in terms of literary flavor.

After reading this thread again, I'm tempted to rank Brienne higher than I had before.

[Ran]

SPOILER: Regarding Randyll Tarly in AFfC

When the steel thorns of the Tyrells are mentioned, Lord Drumm points out that Lord Tarly is always in the van, and wields Heartsbane. In context, it's fairly clear that Tarly is being held up as a formidable fighter, one of the 'steel thorns'. That said, though, it's clear that Tarly's primary reputation seems to rest on his being a competent and experienced commander, personally fearless, rather than his necessarily being among the best swordsmen in the realm.

[Ser Justin the Tall]

SPOILER: Regarding Randyll Tarly in AFfC

When the steel thorns of the Tyrells are mentioned, Lord Drumm points out that Lord Tarly is always in the van, and wields Heartsbane. In context, it's fairly clear that Tarly is being held up as a formidable fighter, one of the 'steel thorns'. That said, though, it's clear that Tarly's primary reputation seems to rest on his being a competent and experienced commander, personally fearless, rather than his necessarily being among the best swordsmen in the realm.

[ThatWierdGuy]

Anyone who thinks Drogo and a dothraki would be at a HUGE disadvantage due to wearing no armor, clearly needs to brush up on history

[Happy Ent]

What's the evidence for Jorah? I don't recall him fighting all that much/well. He talks about how he was never that great, except for that ONE tournament where he somehow beat everybody.

[Bastion]

Wrong. He actually says that he fights "as well as any man." That's a pretty big statement, and quite the opposite of never having been that great. He mellows his own assessment by granting that "I am no tourney knight". Clearly his skills as a jouster are not as good as his skills as a warrior. Remember he is a Northman, and there cannot have been many tourneys on Bear Isle.

So from his own description, he is a very, very competent fighter. He was knighted for valour at Pyke, second only to Thoros,

[Hot Pie]

Happy Ent, I always took Jorah's statement of "I fight as well as any man" to mean that he is not an incredible fighter, but rather only average. He's no slouch, but he doesn't particularly distinguish himself from the pack, either.

Anyways, my list. I only included people who were alive at the beginning of AGOT, at their peak skill level during the books. Also, note that this list is meant for the best fighters in a battle situation.

Top Ten

1. Sandor Clegane: The Hound has all of the most important qualities a fighter needs. He is very strong and very quick. He shows remarkable skill on horseback and on foot. He is one of the top lancers in the Seven Kingdoms. Add to that Sandor's ferocity, ability to withstand pain, and creative thinking (As shown vs. Polliver and the Tickler), and you have a winner.

2. Jaime Lannister: Jaime believes himself to be the best fighter in Westeros. While he may be arrogant, he has plenty to back it up with -- he is reknowned and feared for his skill.

3. Gregor Clegane: He may be lacking in skill, but his massive size and strength more than make up for it.

4. Garlan Tyrell: Garlan isn't a glory hound, so you don't hear too much about his deeds. What you do hear, however, is very impressive. The best fighter on the Blackwater, a better sword than his skilled younger brother, and a man who trains against 3 others at once.

5. Bronn: He's just a lowly sellsword, so you don't hear anyone singing about him, but Bronn is obviously deadly. He's done well in several major battles and duels, and we know he's quite skilled. But what really puts him so high up on the list is his acute mind for battle tactics, and his willingness to turn honorable rules on their heads to consistently defeat men with better training.

6. Barristan Selmy: If he was in his prime, he'd be top 3. As is, though, he just misses the top 5.

7. Oberyn Martell: Skilled, experienced, and not afraid to fight dirty.

8. Brienne: Won a 100 man melee, defeated a weakened Jaime. Underestimated because of her gender.

9: Loras Tyrell: Very skilled with a lance. Also talented with other weapons.

10: Areo Hotah: Although we haven't seen much of him in battle, he doesn't seem like the type of guy to exaggerate his skills.

If this were in a dueling situation, Syrio and Belwas would definately make the list.

[MyDogIsNamedDanerys]

This is absurd, in that Oberyn could have killed Gregor within the first couple of swings, but wanted to punish him.

[Eddard Stark]

Ah yes, he was a ahrlaw. So he should be on the lists definately. And who the hell is Andrik? Could someone refresh my memory please?

It salso funny that even though we have evidence of someone defeating 7 knights in the books, people have a problem with that but people put Jaime and Arthu Dyne up there even though we never really see them fight. (wow, jaime fought brienne, who nearly got killed by biter of all peeoepl who was UNARMED by the way...I guess that means jaime is the best of the best... ) And arthur dyne was killed by Ned Stark, who as we have seen was not really considered the best fighter int he realm you know. Oh yeah, Ned had help from a prong weilding howland...but that doesn't really help arthurs case now does it?

Anyone who thinks Drogo and a dothraki would be at a HUGE disadvantage due to wearing no armor, clearly needs to brush up on history. And maybe re-read the section in agot where jorah tells dany why he thinks the dothraki will easily win even if they fight all of westeros, at least on the field.

[Andhaira]

I felt the opposite was true when I read that. With his usual horrible Cruelty, it was GREGOR that was toying with Martell. Or they were toying with each other in the beginning at least. Now, I think they actually turned out that they were pretty well-matched. Both of them got more than they bargained for and in the end, Gregor got luckier. Or... maybe not, considering he died slowly and horribly from the poison.

Anyway, it's a draw, at least. Oberyn was not "clearly" better.

I disagree, Oberyn was clearly much better. If you re-read the section Gregor is definately not 'toying'; he just barrels straight in for the kill. Plus, Oberyn's preferred weapon is apprently the sword, not the spear.

Also, Oberyn deliberately used a spell on the poison which caused it to thicken; he apparently did this in case he died (which he did) so that gregor would perish also, but horribly. (which again, gregor did). Ofoucrse, it was not the smartest move by the viper, in retrospect, since we learn that the original version of the poison, unenspelled, could kill in a heartbeat. So the viper would still be alive, tyrion would be with him and myrcella would have been crowned queen. But then again, the viper wanted him alive long enough to make his confession in front of the entire audience, so that he would then be able to go after tywin.

That was a good post weird guy; anyhow, keep in mind I am mostly talk about Drogo. The unsullied who fought the kahalsar were not up against Drogo, who has never lost.

And I forgot to mention, if you are going to be using older knights in comparision, such as aemon the dragonknight, you should also include the Laughing Storm (lyonel baratheon). Kind of like robert in his prime.

Brienne is definately not first, or even second tier. She got taken out by biter very very easily, and he was unarmed. Second, the fight with the mummers in affc was the first time brienne has ever killed anyone!! That shows she just does not have the bloodlust and battlehardened experience of the others.

Lastly Randyll Tarly definately seems like he would be a great fighter, as I mentioned before. However, I think he is not really into jousting, and most of the knights who are well known are known DUE to their jousting skills. Also, I think due to his decades of experiance in the van, randyll is probably better than any of the so first tier in a general chaotic and deadly melee, rather than a duel. Fighting in a melee with people screaming, dying all around, constantly checking for enemies from every side, fighting multiple enemies and all with little room to maneouver would be much diff than a one on one duel.

[Andhaira]

First comment, could you try and spell check what you have written. I already ignore anything OsRaven posts because it's not worth my time to try and read it. Your writing is certainly better, but fewer typos would be greatly appreciated.

To the substance of your post.

Jaime Lannister (JL) - The Kingslayer. Slightly over 6', reasonably strong, but quite quick and enjoys fighting. The only thing he is afraid of is Osmund Kettleblack, Lancel and Moonboy in a four-way love triangle with Cersei.

Claim to fame - Killing Aerys, fighting the Kingswood brotherhood, killing Eddard and Torrhen Karstark at Whispering Woods. Finalist in the hand's tourney.

Admittedly, a lot of Jaime's fighting is off screen, but reputation does come into play. Jaime was knighted at an incredibly young age, and joined the KG very young as well. Clearly that goes to demonstrate competence. I don't think Gerold Hightower or Arthur Dayne would have allowed dumbasses like Meryn Trant, Mandon Moore, any of the Kettleblacks into the Kingsguard. However, they did welcome Jaime.

Arthur Dayne (AD) - The Sword of Morning. Said to be the greatest knight in Westeros. Stronger than Jaime Lannister.

Claim to fame - Reputed to be the best of the Kingsguard. Fights with Dawn, which appears to be just as sharp as Valyrian steel, but of generally unknown properties. Slew the Smiling Knight, Simon Toyne.

Best of the KG is pretty damn good...

As to how he died, the KG was fighting 3 vs. 7; those 7 were mounted, although the KG might have been mounted too. Those are pretty bad odds...and Ned's company wasn't a bunch of ignorant fools. They were competent fighters, althought it's hard to gauge just how good they are.

WRT the chap who killed 7 knights. If you've read AFFC, and the D&E tales you'll know that there are quite a few knights who are...well, pathetic fighters. Dunk was hardly a good fighter early on, more of a brawler. Bennis the Brown was probably crap. Many hedge knights and other household knights are SIMPLY not good. I don't think killing 7 knights of uncertain capability is really that impressive. It's far less impressive than fighting 3 people at once and winning for sure.

DK

About the spelling, I'm usually excited when I post and usually post from work, so I don't spell check as much as I should. Sorry.

Anyhow, first you should definately not take jaime's kingslaying into consideration when talking about his skills, since even cersei could have killed aerys from behind! I agree jaime was probably quite competent, but...we don't really see enough to compare him to the others in the first tier. I seriously doubt jaime could have defeated the mountain in single combat...no way. At least not with a sword, and as far as we know jaime does not know how to use a spear, or any other longer weapon.

Oh and btw, mandon moore was actually quite good, as was oakheart; unlike meryn and boros and the kettleblacks. Just because someone died does not mean they were not top tier material. (not saying necessarily oakheart and moore were, but they were definately not crappy by any means. In fact, recall jaime's and barristan's remaraks to tyrion about mandon moore if you will.)

As for Arthur, who knows how much of his skill was due to his weapon, as Darkstar pointed out.

Keep in mind even if those 7 knights were really crappy (which I doubt but hey), fighting seven armored knigts in a row and defeating them (killing 5) is not something just anyone in the novels can do. Otherwise the keep would never have surrendered and might have tried to wait out the invaders in a siege.

[madkasel]

I disagree, Oberyn was clearly much better. If you re-read the section Gregor is definately not 'toying'; he just barrels straight in for the kill. Plus, Oberyn's preferred weapon is apprently the sword, not the spear.

Also, Oberyn deliberately used a spell on the poison which caused it to thicken; he apparently did this in case he died (which he did) so that gregor would perish also, but horribly. (which again, gregor did). Ofoucrse, it was not the smartest move by the viper, in retrospect, since we learn that the original version of the poison, unenspelled, could kill in a heartbeat. So the viper would still be alive, tyrion would be with him and myrcella would have been crowned queen.

You forget what the Viper's goal was in his fight with Gregor. He didn't care about just killing Gregor and winning for Tyrion -- he cared about getting Gregor to scream out exactly what he screamed out... that he smashed the babies head in. That was HUGELY important.

If he'd used a poison that killed in an instant, he wouldn't have gotten out of the fight what he wanted. Instead, he toyed with Gregor, because as much as anything, he wanted to get that admission out of him.

That's my take on it, anyway.

[Eddard Stark]

About the spelling, I'm usually excited when I post and usually post from work, so I don't spell check as much as I should. Sorry.

Not a problem, and I'm sure you'll improve : )

Anyhow, first you should definately not take jaime's kingslaying into consideration when talking about his skills, since even cersei could have killed aerys from behind! I agree jaime was probably quite competent, but...we don't really see enough to compare him to the others in the first tier. I seriously doubt jaime could have defeated the mountain in single combat...no way. At least not with a sword, and as far as we know jaime does not know how to use a spear, or any other longer weapon.

Well, I was talking about what he was famous for. Killing Aerys was hardly an accomplishment I agree. However, he has a history as a good man in a tourney, and he also is considered to be a strong fighter. You have to go on a combination of evidence from the series, and there certainly is a fair amount of that, and 'reputation' and 'hearsay'. The trick is that you want to figure out how accurate the hearsay is. In the case of a knight of the Kingsguard who is publicly very well known, it's probably relatively accurate.

Oh and btw, mandon moore was actually quite good, as was oakheart; unlike meryn and boros and the kettleblacks. Just because someone died does not mean they were not top tier material. (not saying necessarily oakheart and moore were, but they were definately not crappy by any means. In fact, recall jaime's and barristan's remaraks to tyrion about mandon moore if you will.)

I don't think there is any evidence for Oakheart's prowess. I suspect he was probably alright, but definitely not top tier. WRT Mandon Moore, I've had this discussion before, and I'll briefly reiterate it.

Jaime said that Mandon Moore was dangerous because you could never tell what he was going to do. Not that he was deadly with a sword or a dangerous fighter, but that he was hard to anticipate based on language, body language, etc.

As for Arthur, who knows how much of his skill was due to his weapon, as Darkstar pointed out.

If you want to take that tact, then we should definitely remove anyone who uses valyrian steel from the list...let's be serious here.

Keep in mind even if those 7 knights were really crappy (which I doubt but hey), fighting seven armored knigts in a row and defeating them (killing 5) is not something just anyone in the novels can do. Otherwise the keep would never have surrendered and might have tried to wait out the invaders in a siege.

It really depends on how good the knights are and how long the fights took. I don't really think that you can conclude anything without knowing how good the knights were.

DK