salinea Posted June 26, 2007 Share Posted June 26, 2007 this is a thread to continue the discussion on this thread : http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?showt...0142&st=120 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingslayer Posted June 26, 2007 Share Posted June 26, 2007 Meh, that horse has been beaten to death. How about Cersei as proto-feminist? Sure, she's cruel and stupid, but I have to admire her refusal to accept her "place" as a woman in Westerosi society. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
salinea Posted June 26, 2007 Author Share Posted June 26, 2007 How about Cersei as proto-feminist? Sure, she's cruel and stupid, but I have to admire her refusal to accept her "place" as a woman in Westerosi society. Hum. No. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingslayer Posted June 26, 2007 Share Posted June 26, 2007 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
All-for-Joffrey Posted June 26, 2007 Share Posted June 26, 2007 I don't think most Catelyn bashers do so out of sexism but the number of inane reasons they give for hating her makes it so I just can't take them seriously. They usually give 2-3 sufficent reasons for disliking her and then they have a never ending list of several other reasons full of double standards that just makes it look like they strain their brains to find any and every reason to hate her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bronn Stone Posted June 26, 2007 Share Posted June 26, 2007 Wrong for hating Catelyn, or wrong in thier stated reasons for hating Catelyn? Hate her for reasons based on their own unsupportable interpretations of the text. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanteGabriel Posted June 26, 2007 Share Posted June 26, 2007 I don't think most Catelyn bashers do so out of sexism but the number of inane reasons they give for hating her makes it so I just can't take them seriously. They usually give 2-3 sufficent reasons for disliking her and then they have a never ending list of several other reasons full of double standards that just makes it look like they strain their brains to find any and every reason to hate her. I agree with you about the inane reasons bit, but what explanation is there for unreasonable loathing and consistently biased interpretations of her actions, if not sexism? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CelticBrennus Posted June 26, 2007 Share Posted June 26, 2007 Hate her because the only argument her supporters have is that anyone who dislikes her is sexist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xray the Enforcer Posted June 26, 2007 Share Posted June 26, 2007 several other reasons full of double standards that just makes it look like they strain their brains to find any and every reason to hate her. well, many of those "double-standards" are gender-based, which would sorta put that squarely into the "sexism" realm, non? I'm mostly dismayed at the outright misogyny that is hauled out when boarders wish to bash certain female characters. Dislike the character, fine. But expressing it in such disgusting terms, and advocating they be raped and killed, says absolutely nothing of credit about YOU, the boarder, and it also has no place in a community like this. I wish more people would ponder the impact of their words before typing them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xray the Enforcer Posted June 26, 2007 Share Posted June 26, 2007 Hate her because the only argument her supporters have is that anyone who dislikes her is sexist. "Yeah, her first album was totally great. But then she got all popular, and sold out, and I hate her now." Edit: second sentence didn't need to be said. Sorry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanteGabriel Posted June 26, 2007 Share Posted June 26, 2007 Hate her because the only argument her supporters have is that anyone who dislikes her is sexist. CB, in the General Chatter thread that spawned this one, I characterized this as a strawman and pointed out that there's a difference between these two statements: 1. People who dislike Catelyn are sexist. 2. People dislike Catelyn more than is warranted, for sexist reasons. (that may not be a carbon copy of what I wrote in the other thread but I don't think the substance has changed) I contend that most of the Catelyn defenders who are citing sexism are arguing point #2. Can you comment on that before you go off about the Catelyn-defender conspiracy to tar all her detractors as sexist? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
14th Dragon Posted June 26, 2007 Share Posted June 26, 2007 I agree with you about the inane reasons bit, but what explanation is there for unreasonable loathing and consistently biased interpretations of her actions, if not sexism? The 2-3 "suffecient" reasons to dislike the charecter are enough to leave a sour taste in ones mouth thus giving her a much rougher judgement subsequently. It is possible to not like someone without it having root in anything other then they rub you the wrong way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
14th Dragon Posted June 26, 2007 Share Posted June 26, 2007 Hate her for reasons based on their own unsupportable interpretations of the text. Ok, so hating her is reasonable, and there are supportable things in the text for hating her, but those that hate her for unsupportalbe things are wrong? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanteGabriel Posted June 26, 2007 Share Posted June 26, 2007 The 2-3 "suffecient" reasons to dislike the charecter are enough to leave a sour taste in ones mouth thus giving her a much rougher judgement subsequently. It is possible to not like someone without it having root in anything other then they rub you the wrong way. Well, I didn't agree with the "sufficient" reasons thing. I agreed with the contention that some people have lots of inane reasons to hate her. I can't hate her for the "Jon, it should have been you" line any more than I could hate Tyrion for the "yes I killed your son" line. I think that it's not enough of a basis to hate a character, especially a character who gets as much screentime as Catelyn. Should I hate Jon because he was whiny throughout his early chapters, and because he humiliated Tyrion after Tyrion tried to tell him the truth about the Night's Watch? Why are some characters more easily condemned for showing faults and flaws early on? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CelticBrennus Posted June 26, 2007 Share Posted June 26, 2007 Can you comment on that before you go off about the Catelyn-defender conspiracy to tar all her detractors as sexist? I fail to see a meaningful distinction between the two. Both accept as fact that anyone who dislikes Catelyn is sexist and using sexism as the basis for their postion. It fails to accept that a person can think she makes poor decisions and dislike her for her actions. And frankly, the posts above mine in this thread reveal that defenders appear to view anyone who dislikes Catelyn as either sexist or stupid. Now I remember why I left the book sections and now mostly talk sports. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
salinea Posted June 26, 2007 Author Share Posted June 26, 2007 Both accept as fact that anyone who dislikes Catelyn is sexist Err, no. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Padraig Posted June 26, 2007 Share Posted June 26, 2007 It is possible to not like someone without it having root in anything other then they rub you the wrong way. Hmmm. There's always a reason why somebody rubs you the wrong way. Not just "because". That's why this thread started. Hate her because the only argument her supporters have is that anyone who dislikes her is sexist. Or because you singularly fail to argue that there are other reasons to hate her? Like this... Renege? Not a chance, I was just hoping that it would be a good example. As it is, its kinda weak. Is that it? You wanted an example. You got one. And you just ignore it then? Because its not very convenient for you anymore? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xray the Enforcer Posted June 26, 2007 Share Posted June 26, 2007 Absolutely not, CB. I do not claim that all those who dislike Catelyn do so for sexist or stupid reasons. But there are many who do employ double-standards when examining the actions of a female character vs. a male one. That is sexist, and a rather untenable arguing position. Nobody is saying you have to like her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bronn Stone Posted June 26, 2007 Share Posted June 26, 2007 Ok, so hating her is reasonable, and there are supportable things in the text for hating her, but those that hate her for unsupportalbe things are wrong? I will concur with these statements. Some are close to what you are saying. Many of those who hate Catelyn fail to understand the implications of her actions Many of those who hate Catelyn do so for irrational reasons I seldom see what I consider rational reasons for disliking the character (pre Stoneheart). I only think of a single argument I have seen for hating Catelyn that was both reasonable in its interpretation and involved a transgression that I consider sufficient for inspiring such wrath (It should have been you - Jon) Very often I see the argument that she should have only followed the lead of her Lord husband - an argument I consider sexist at its core GRRM seemed genuinely shocked when BwB-types told him that Catelyn inspires such vitriol on the forums. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_BlauerDragon Posted June 26, 2007 Share Posted June 26, 2007 Meh, that horse has been beaten to death. How about Cersei as proto-feminist? Sure, she's cruel and stupid, but I have to admire her refusal to accept her "place" as a woman in Westerosi society. I think she's a much better mother (and Person in general) than Cat was... Which isn't saying much... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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