Sexism in Catelyn bashing

[salinea]

I think she's a much better mother (and Person in general) than Cat was... Which isn't saying much...

Cersei got several newborn children killed.

What awful crime has Cat committed that would warrent being worse than that?

[Lord Mord]

CB,

I fail to see a meaningful distinction between the two.

The distinction which you, alas, fail to see, lies in this point: You say,

It fails to accept that a person can think she makes poor decisions and dislike her for her actions.

Which is categorically false.

The first statement does fail to accept such a notion, because it makes no distinction of scale. The second statement, however, suggests that while there are potentially legitimate, rational arguments for disliking Catelyn, the scale to which it is carried by some is unsupportable, and furthermore this problem in regards to Catelyn is typically suggestive of some sexist thinking.

[DanteGabriel]

I fail to see a meaningful distinction between the two. Both accept as fact that anyone who dislikes Catelyn is sexist and using sexism as the basis for their postion. It fails to accept that a person can think she makes poor decisions and dislike her for her actions.

CB, I'll answer your point with an illuminating passage from Neal Stephenson's Cryptonomicon:

"I don't like the word 'addict' because it has terrible connotations," Root says one day, as they are sunning themselves on the afterdeck. "Instead of slapping a label on you, the Germans would describe you as 'Morphiümsuchtig'. The verb suchen means to seek. So that might be translated, loosely, as 'morphine-seeky' or even more loosely as 'morphine-seeking'. I prefer 'seeky' because it means that you have an inclination to seek morphine.

"What the fuck are you talking about?" Shaftoe says.

"Well, suppsoe you have a roof with a hole in it. That means it is a leaky roof. It's leaky all the time -- even if it's not raining at the moment. But it's only leaking when it happens to be raining. In the same way, morphine-seeky means that you always have this tendency to look for morphine, even if you are not looking at it for the moment. But I prefer both of them to 'addict' because they are adjectives modifying Bobby Shaftoe instead of a noun that obliterates Bobby Shaftoe."

And frankly, the posts above mine in this thread reveal that defenders appear to view anyone who dislikes Catelyn as either sexist or stupid.

I confess I've expressed some scorn, consciously or not, for the more egregious and less "eloquent" Catelyn-bashers. Have you read some of the Catelyn-bashing posts? Sexism and stupidity are not incredibly unreasonable conclusions to draw from them. But even so I'm trying to refrain from such a blanket statement.

[CelticBrennus]

The first statement does fail to accept such a notion, because it makes no distinction of scale. The second statement, however, suggests that while there are potentially legitimate, rational arguments for disliking Catelyn, the scale to which it is carried by some is unsupportable, and furthermore this problem in regards to Catelyn is typically suggestive of some sexist thinking.

Which gets to my point exactly - people like you have made it impossible to actually discuss Catelyns actions by making explicit or implicit accusations of sexism against anyone who disagrees with you.

Have you read some of the Catelyn-bashing posts? Sexism and stupidity are not incredibly unreasonable conclusions to draw from them. But even so I'm trying to refrain from such a blanket statement.

Yes, I have. Yes, I know exactly what you are talking about. However, you ensure that those are the only people you will ever engage in those threads through the constant thowing around of the term sexism by running off those whose opinions are not framed through sexism.

[DanteGabriel]

I think she's a much better mother (and Person in general) than Cat was... Which isn't saying much...

Wow. Just wow.

[Lord Mord]

Stranger,

Cersei got several newborn children killed.

What awful crime has Cat committed that would warrent being worse than that?

Is your memory so short?! Tsk, tsk, tsk!

Very well, then. Do you remember a little scene in the tower in the first book? Jon wants to see Bran, but the btich is there, hovering over him with her fangs and claws and bloodshot eyes. Jon goes to take a single step into the room, and she whirls on him unprovoked, snarling and snapping. She bays at the moon and then, looming over Jon and in her fetid breath she sneers, "It should have been you, you snivelling turd!"

Next to that, what is raising a murderous bastard like Clegane back to "life," or letting the whole realm tear itself to pieces for the sake of a false crown? Next to that, what matter a heart devoted to its own selfishness instead of ever considering doing without for the betterment of others?

[DanteGabriel]

Which gets to my point exactly - people like you have made it impossible to actually discuss Catelyns actions by making explicit or implicit accusations of sexism against anyone who disagrees with you.

Yes, I have. Yes, I know exactly what you are talking about. However, you ensure that those are the only people you will ever engage in those threads through the constant thowing around of the term sexism by running off those whose opinions are not framed through sexism.

I'm confused here. Because some people have suggested that people may dislike Catelyn more than she deserves for sexist reasons, that will drive all reasonable people who dislike Catelyn away from the debate? Are you that afraid of the word "sexism"?

[CelticBrennus]

No, its because I have been here, and done all this before and I have no faith in her defenders refraining from throwing around accusations of sexism, and frankly I have no patience for that anymore.

[DanteGabriel]

No, its because I have been here, and done all this before and I have no faith in her defenders refraining from throwing around accusations of sexism, and frankly I have no patience for that anymore.

But you've got the patience to throw a strawman like this

I am not the one claiming that people are sexist if they dont think Catelyn is the smartest and coolest and bestest character ever.

into the fray?

[Lord Mord]

CB,

Which gets to my point exactly - people like you have made it impossible to actually discuss Catelyns actions by making explicit or implicit accusations of sexism against anyone who disagrees with you.

(emphasis mine)

Firstly, you cannot prove that charge against me, personally, though you wrote as though to address my point specifically when you leveled this accusation. Secondly, you can't make that charge stick, even to say, DG or BS, because you can't prove that just anyone (read: everyone) who disagrees with them about Catelyn gets called sexist. Thirdly, even if you were only indulging in hyperbole with regard to the number of people who are accused of being sexist, for to make your charge stick, you have the burden of proving that DG and BS had no reason, in at least several of the cases cases where they have done so, to call the bashing under consideration "sexist."

Then, and only then, would it be reasonable to even consider that their motives are a matter of swatting at people who disagree with them.

[salinea]

Stranger,

Is your memory so short?! Tsk, tsk, tsk!

Very well, then. Do you remember a little scene in the tower in the first book? Jon wants to see Bran, but the btich is there, hovering over him with her fangs and claws and bloodshot eyes. Jon goes to take a single step into the room, and she whirls on him unprovoked, snarling and snapping. She bays at the moon and then, looming over Jon and in her fetid breath she sneers, "It should have been you, you snivelling turd!"

Next to that, what is raising a murderous bastard like Clegane back to "life," or letting the whole realm tear itself to pieces for the sake of a false crown? Next to that, what matter a heart devoted to its own selfishness instead of ever considering doing without for the betterment of others?

Oh, my bad. I'd forgotten.

Obviously, for this, Catelyn deserves to see all the people she love die, and then be killed, and then bring back to life so she can weep in the ruins forever, contemplating the horror of her way.

[salinea]

No, its because I have been here, and done all this before and I have no faith in her defenders refraining from throwing around accusations of sexism, and frankly I have no patience for that anymore.

You're throwing around more accusations of being called a sexist than people are actually throwing accusations of sexism.

[salinea]

However, you ensure that those are the only people you will ever engage in those threads through the constant thowing around of the term sexism by running off those whose opinions are not framed through sexism.

Poor, fragile un-sexist Catelyn haters. My heart weeps out for them, truely, it weeps.

[DanteGabriel]

Also, for the record, I'm much more likely to attribute truly egregious Catelyn-bashing to mommy issues than to sexism.

[Lord Mord]

Stranger,

You're throwing around more accusations of being called a sexist than people are actually throwing accusations of sexism.

This is back-logged scorn. The previous threads in which other people behaved so irresponsibly closed before CB could adequately vent his frustrations on those people. Since the two subjects -- Catelyn and sexism -- were linked again, this is, naturally, the perfect opportunity to get back on them by visiting their punishment on us.

[Lord Mord]

DG,

Also, for the record, I'm much more likely to attribute truly egregious Catelyn-bashing to mommy issues than to sexism.

You intrigue me. Could you indugle me by elaborating?

[salinea]

Stranger,

This is back-logged scorn. The previous threads in which other people behaved so irresponsibly closed before CB could adequately vent his frustrations on those people. Since the two subjects -- Catelyn and sexism -- were linked again, this is, naturally, the perfect opportunity to get back on them by visiting their punishment on us.

That other thread were he was already claiming people were calling him a sexist when nobody was doing so?

[Lord Mord]

Stranger,

That other thread were he was already claiming people were calling him a sexist when nobody was doing so?

No, no, no. Earlier -- the thread before that.

[DanteGabriel]

You intrigue me. Could you indugle me by elaborating?

I have no evidence other than what I vainly consider to be a writerly attention to human quirks, but I do have the impression that a lot of the less well-considered Catelyn bashers are teenage males, or at least in their early 20s, who have probably not yet developed a healthy adult relationship with their mothers and are still, to some extent, chafing against the presence of their own mothers much in the way Robb Stark did. I know that when I was a teenager, I usually didn't even bother to parse the things my mom would say and do before I'd get irritated -- I had an instinctive counter-reaction to her because of the role she played in my life.

Perhaps I'm making the cardinal mistake of assuming the personal is universal. But I can't help but feel that there is some demographic correlation between being a young man and being unreasonably harsh in judgment of Catelyn.

[CelticBrennus]

No, no, no. Earlier -- the thread before that.

No, more like 3-4 years ago.