[AFfC Spoilers] not up to par?

[Sword of Funny]

and leave the real books for the grown ups.

Wow, talk about pot calling the kettle black...

[Ran]

The thing is it hasn't evolved beyond it. The reason it's called A Feast for Crows is pretty obvious:

The smell reminded Jaime Lannister of the pass below the Golden Tooth, where he had won a glorious victory in the first days of the war. On the morning after the battle, the crows had feasted on victors and vanquished alike, as once they had feasted on Rhaegar Targaryen after the Trident. How much can a crown be worth, when a crow can dine upon a king?

The looters come with the carrion crows after every battle.

"Crows will fight over a dead man’s flesh and kill each other for his eyes." Lord Rodrik stared across the sea, watching the play of moonlight on the waves. "We had one king, then five. Now all I see are crows, squabbling over the corpse of Westeros."

And others just like the above. This book is absolutely a book about the aftermath of the war -- but here the crows are the various individuals and factions squabbling over the guts of Westeros.

As to complete story for all the characters, of course he did. Cliffhangers have been a standard way to end an installment of a story in a way that creates a "beat" before the next installment. Cliffhangers are acceptable ways to end stories and have been for many years, and at least technically they're complete even if they merely create a pause before the next section. This is because they are a logical pause -- frustrating, perhaps, but they do culminate the preceeding events. The only difference is that you stop right at the culmination, rather than at the resolution of the cliffhanger -- again, frustrating perhaps, but long a valid choice.

The only danger is overuse. Maybe that's what people are complaining about. But did GRRM give a complete story for each of the characters? In terms of narrative structures, yes.

[Sword of Funny]

The only danger is overuse. Maybe that's what people are complaining about. But did GRRM give a complete story for each of the characters? In terms of narrative structures, yes.

You could argue that there are satisfying (though incomplete) story arcs for the main POV characters. This is probably most strongly the case for Cersei and Brienne.

However, a good chunk of the book is non-main POV characters, and they are just slim fractions of narratives. Those are the chapters that I, and a lot of other readers, could've done without all together, or seen them combined to form more main POV characters.

[Analu]

You could argue that there are satisfying (though incomplete) story arcs for the main POV characters. This is probably most strongly the case for Cersei and Brienne.

I was very displeased at the end of Brienne's POV, not because of the writing, but because I don't wanna wait 5 years to find out what word she says. I hope he reveals this in ADwD

However, a good chunk of the book is non-main POV characters, and they are just slim fractions of narratives. Those are the chapters that I, and a lot of other readers, could've done without all together, or seen them combined to form more main POV characters.

But we don't know that they are going to be "non-main POV characters" in the future books.

[Alazander]

The only danger is overuse. Maybe that's what people are complaining about. But did GRRM give a complete story for each of the characters? In terms of narrative structures, yes.

Sorry, but he didn't. Brienne is left hanging at the end of a rope. That's not an end of a story arc, it's a cheap cliffhanger. Now, if she dies, that *is* an end of an arc. I'll give you that, if that is indeed the case, but then I'll have to point to Brienne's 150+ pages of pointless wandering and call a spade a spade. That is, Martin included filler material for the sake of it and/or lost the plot.

Cersei is left facing trial by combat. That's not a complete story arc. It's a cliffhanger. Not as cheap as the Brienne one, but if you consider this particular arc to start at Twyin's death and the start of Cersei's regency of the realm, then logically that would have to follow through to the end of Cersei's reign.

Jaime's is the most "complete", although again, we're left wandering what's going to happen with him.

Arya's... well, where does Arya's go? It's not an even an arc. Her training has only just begun.

Sam's... if the whole of Sam's arc can be summed up as "He goes a lengthy sea voyage to Oldtown, Maester Aemon dies, he arrives", then that could be summed up in a paragraph. Which is what Martin should have done. There's no excitement or interest in these chapters. None.

Same for Sansa. Waste of time and described something that could be told in a paragraph. We're entering soap opera territory, here.

I'm not even going to bother with the Iron Islands or the Dorne POVs which pretty much go full circle and should have been kept in a prologue, as they were originally intended.

The fact is, Martin is picking up some of these in ADWD to finish them off. I think that answers the question: no, these character arcs weren't completed, and Martin's statement was a poor attempt at justifying splitting the book, and one that he'll come to regret.

Martin isn't perfect; he's not some god-like omnipotent figure who has rhyme and reason behind everything he does. He's an excellent, albeit slow, writer who tends to make things up as he goes along, and is as prone to slipping up (A Feast for Crows) as anyone else.

Yeah, he's an awesome writer, and probably a nice guy, but come on... claiming Martin finished all the POVs in "Feast" is like trying claim the day is night.

[Sword of Funny]

I was very displeased at the end of Brienne's POV, not because of the writing, but because I don't wanna wait 5 years to find out what word she says.

Me neither.

But we don't know that they are going to be "non-main POV characters" in the future books.

Maybe in the future one or more of them will get satisfying narratives, but in AFfC they don't, and that is the topic of this discussion.

[Caligula_K]

Are you implying that the fact that we wonder whats going to happen with a character somehow makes his story arc less complete? If so, then George has yet to write a complete story arc.

Anything in any book can be summed up as easily as that. "Jaime goes on a lengthy land voyage with Brienne to King's Landing. He loses his right hand along the way, and is forced to re-examine the role of honour in his life. He arrives." And there's no excitement or interest in these chapters? Funny, they were some of my favourites.

What'd you expect? Littlefinger to just zip across the world and everything fall at his feet with Sansa at his side? Sansa's story arc in this book is indeed complete.

So you therefore don't have problems with the writing of these chapters, but just where they were placed in the book (in different parts instead of a prologue). And these chapters were quite important; How else would we know that Doran is plotting to ally Dorne with Dany? Or that Euron has a horn that can control dragons and that Victarion is going to try to woo Dany?

The reason he's doing this, it seems to me, is because the events of ADWD go past the events of AFFC. Therefore, he's re-aligning the timeline.

No, he didn't finish all the POVs. Brienne is an example of that. But George has been using cliffhangers since A Game of Thrones, so if you're going to complain about this, then complain about the whole series in general. Your post just seems incredibly nitpicky; like you dislike Feast, so you're trying to find everything possible that could be wrong with it. Of course there are some flaws in the book.. There are flaws in any book, and you have a right to dislike it. But Martin clearly did end the majority of the character arcs for Feast, like he does in all his books.

[Ran]

Sorry, but he didn't. Brienne is left hanging at the end of a rope. That's not an end of a story arc, it's a cheap cliffhanger.

Either Brienne is dead, or she's going to be going after Jaime Lannister (a complete change from what we saw from her at the end of ASoS, and during AFfC). Whatever happens, her story arc is becoming something completely different. The cliffhanger marks that fact -- the story of Brienne seeking the wilds for Sansa Stark is done.

Cersei is left facing trial by combat. That's not a complete story arc. It's a cliffhanger.

Yes, and whatever follows that cliffhanger will be a completely different life for Cersei. She'll be found guilty and die, or she'll be exiled to the Rock -- there's no going back for her to ruling the realm. I.e., that cliffhanger marks the fact that her arc in AFfC is _done_ -- the story of Cersei's rise and fall is done.

Jaime's is the most "complete", although again, we're left wandering what's going to happen with him.

One can say the same of all the characters in every book. You want to find out what happens next, don't you? Otherwise you wouldn't read the series. But that said, his story arc in this novel is done, too -- it's his reaching the conclusion that the relationship between his sister and himself is fairly much done for (or, at least, very much secondary to the good of the realm), and making that fateful decision to burn her letter rather than hare off to her rescue.

Arya's... well, where does Arya's go? It's not an even an arc. Her training has only just begun.

Sam's... if the whole of Sam's arc can be summed up as "He goes a lengthy sea voyage to Oldtown, Maester Aemon dies, he arrives", then that could be summed up in a paragraph.

"Ned goes to King's Landing, goes up against the Lannisters, and dies.

You can sum up _anything_ in a sentence. That doesn't mean anything.

Same for Sansa. Waste of time and described something that could be told in a paragraph.

"Arya wanders the Riverlands, gets captured by Beric Dondarrion and then the Hound, then takes a ship to Braavos."

There are two parts to a story: the plot movement, and the character development. The above succinctly gives us the plot movement as far as Arya is concerned, perhaps, but it completely fails to do anything regarding her character development. The same might be said of any attempt to just say you can squeeze something down into a paragraph. No, of course you can't -- especially, I think, in the story for the children, who have the most character growth within their chapters in general (because they have a lot more growing to do). Not only does writing Sansa's POV off as something that could be covered in a paragraph do a disservice to explaining the cliffhanger from the previous book ('Littlefinger kills Lysa. Now what?'), it writes off the POV

I'm not even going to bother with the Iron Islands or the Dorne POVs which pretty much go full circle and should have been kept in a prologue, as they were originally intended.

I'm trying to imagine how weird it'd be to read a massive prologue full of unfamiliar characters, covering time ... then resetting the clock and going back to the familiar characters. GRRM was right on this one.

Martin is picking up some of these in ADWD to finish them off. I think that answers the question: no, these character arcs weren't completed, and Martin's statement was a poor attempt at justifying splitting the book, and one that he'll come to regret.

No, he hasn't said that he will. He says that it's possible_that if he finishes ADwD swiftly enough, he may have time to write a couple hundred additional pages to start tying at least some of them back together. This isn't an issue of character arcs not being "completed", but simply an economical use of his time and space.

Just as Sam's chapter starts in the North where we see Jon (and opens and closes in Oldtown), it'd make sense for ADwD to finish with characters from one book being re-introduced to POVs of characters from the other book. It's not necessary in any real sense, but it can certainly be an elegant way to weave the two separate strands back together.

I can completely understand you aren't happy. It's true GRRM found this book very difficult to write. But when he says he's presented complete arcs for characters, he's right. The cliffhangers are a place holder before he goes onto the next stage for the characters, rather than a sign of keeping the characters in stasis.

[Blackstone]

I don't think that AFFC was his best work. AGoT and ASoS were better overall. I threw the book across the room when Ned Stark was killed. I have not read anything outside of James Elroy that was a brutal as the Red Wedding.

But in AFFC, Martin does some his best writing ever. Maester Aemon dying, calling for Egg, saying that he had a dream that he was old. That was so sad, and human its hard to believe that GRRM made it up. But, that's what good writing is about.

AFFC also had some of his best characters ever -- the Reader and Genna Lannister-Frey, I even liked Septon Meribald and Dog.

But I agree, AFFC was uneven overall.

AFFC is Wednessday. It's the hump. Its the deep breath before the plunge into the icy river.

[Analu]

AFFC is Wednessday. It's the hump. Its the deep breath before the plunge into the icy river.

Ha! I like that, Blackstone. Can we skip Thursday and go right to Friday or Saturday?

[Alazander]

Are you implying that the fact that we wonder whats going to happen with a character somehow makes his story arc less complete? If so, then George has yet to write a complete story arc.

Anything in any book can be summed up as easily as that. "Jaime goes on a lengthy land voyage with Brienne to King's Landing. He loses his right hand along the way, and is forced to re-examine the role of honour in his life. He arrives." And there's no excitement or interest in these chapters? Funny, they were some of my favourites.

What'd you expect? Littlefinger to just zip across the world and everything fall at his feet with Sansa at his side? Sansa's story arc in this book is indeed complete.

So you therefore don't have problems with the writing of these chapters, but just where they were placed in the book (in different parts instead of a prologue). And these chapters were quite important; How else would we know that Doran is plotting to ally Dorne with Dany? Or that Euron has a horn that can control dragons and that Victarion is going to try to woo Dany?

The reason he's doing this, it seems to me, is because the events of ADWD go past the events of AFFC. Therefore, he's re-aligning the timeline.

No, he didn't finish all the POVs. Brienne is an example of that. But George has been using cliffhangers since A Game of Thrones, so if you're going to complain about this, then complain about the whole series in general. Your post just seems incredibly nitpicky; like you dislike Feast, so you're trying to find everything possible that could be wrong with it. Of course there are some flaws in the book.. There are flaws in any book, and you have a right to dislike it. But Martin clearly did end the majority of the character arcs for Feast, like he does in all his books.

Jaime's arc ends in something of a cliffhanger in that we don't know whether he's going to return to King's Landing to defend his sister. I suppose you could consider this to be a complete, albeit unsatisfying thread.

The others you picked out (Sam and Sansa) were pathetic in what they offered to the story, whether you consider them complete or not. Woo, Sam goes to Oldtown, Sansa leaves the Eyrie. Amazing work after 5 years, George.

The Dorne and Iron Island chapters broke the flow of the book and the introduction of periphery characters was a big mistake. These weren't even arcs, just clumsy additions to provide information that could have been told with much more finesse.

I've never liked cliffhangers. That's one regrettable aspect of George's writing that shows his past a series writer, and AFFC took it way too far. Brienne's was just out of the blue and felt cheaper than a night with Pia. (Or whatever the gap-toothed wench is called.)

Yes, I am being picky with the book. That's because of the ridiculous crap floating about in this thread that needs to be flushed down the toilet in the most concise, analytical way possible.

Overall I didn't feel the book was that bad, but I'm afraid I have an aversion to fanboys and folk who'd claim a goose is a dragon rather than criticize their favourite author.

[Alazander]

With all due respect Ran, you're probably Martin's number one fan and anything argued against him is not going to stick with you. You're claiming several POVs were finished which is patently false. I can't say any more than that. Brienne's is NOT finished, Cersei's is NOT finished, Arya's is NOT finished and has barely BEGUN.

I understand character and plot development perfectly. If you want to justify Sansa's and Sam's chapters as developing their characters, that's fine, but Martin DOES NOT strike a happy balance between developing them and developing their stories. If this was a 20 book series, I'd say Martin just about nailed it, but it's not. It was scheduled for six.

Perhaps "a waste of time" was the wrong choice of phrase. "Misguided" or " sorely lacking" would have been better. I wonder why Martin is now saying 7 books, which could possibly rise to 8? Oh, that's right, because he's not done a good job with the narrative flow and is now behind schedule!

"The cliffhangers are a place holder before he goes onto the next stage for the characters, rather than a sign of keeping the characters in stasis."

Come on, Ran... placeholders? This is a novel! You can't say a character arc was completed, but that it ends in a cliffhanger. That's just ridiculous. You know that, and I think everyone else does. You're just making excuses here.

Also, let's quickly address this "You can summarize anything in one paragraph" argument I've been hearing so much of...

You can, of course, summarize ANYTHING in one paragraph. What is missed out in the process is the important part. All we get from Sam's 5 chapters is some slight character development that indicates he's toughtening up, and the long-anticipated death of Maester Aemon. The whole business with the singer was just filler material, in my opinion.

There's simply not 5 chapters worth of good material there. 2 possibly, but not 5. In the context of a five-year wait for the book, what Sam achieves in this book is negligible.

[Doran Doran]

The whole business with the singer was just filler material, in my opinion.

I'd agree normally, but you have to consider that Martin has to deliver at least one cool murder a book for our awesome young chick-in-chainmailed-cliché or a significant portion of fandom will throw a massive fit. Using the Sam chapter character to do so might indicate at least an attempt at plot economy at Martin's part, although one could wish he'd directed more of that effort toward the endless Brienne meandering instead.

Overall, I think you're too harsh. I too doubt Martin accomplished anything he'd set out to accomplish with this book even in his own mind, but the book is not bereft of merit - on an absolute scale, it's still a decent read surprisningly often. It's just that it seriously pales in comparison with what's gone before.

If I were a teacher and Martin a favourite pupil, the verdict on AFfC would be: "Not terrible, but not, I feel, up to George's usual standard."

[Isle of Toads]

Ser Ilyn Payne approached Ned with the Greatsword Ice clutched in both hands. Yoren told Arya to look away.

Then something happened.

This is just one example of how story arcs DID NOT end in the first three books. I agree with the earlier sentiment that aFfC contained too many incomplete story lines. It's tough to look back and find any similar cliffhanger endings/incomplete arcs from the first three books. Theon's end in aCoK maybe. But at least Theon's story was full of interesting plot twists and events which had an impact on Westeros in general and on several major characters. Even without knowing the rest of Theon's story (if he survived), the story in general was advanced by --

His betrayal of Robb.

The complete loss of Winterfell as a power locus in the North.

The perceived deaths of Bran and Rickon.

The emergence of the dastardly Boltons as the major Northern power.

(And we can probably add removing himself as a viable heir to the seastone chair -- although the impact of this was not immediately clear at the end of aCoK.)

Now, I don't think that even Brienne's unfathomable journey should have been cut down to one paragraph, but regardless of the rest of her story (if she survives), did her arc in aFfC accomplish as much as Theon?

She keeps her oath to Jaime and goes out looking for Sansa.

She finds (and kills) several Brave Companions.

She stumbles upon Stoneheart's band.

Her oath to Jaime is tested by Stoneheart.

I just can't see the major impact here. Unlike with Theon's storyline, where even though we don't know what happened to him specifically, the story as a whole was dramatically changed because of his actions. Can we say the same for Brienne? If she never gets another page of POV, will the story as a whole be altered at all by what she accomplished in aFfC?

Some people will always believe in Martin's grand plan, but I think it's clear that the aFfC that was published was not the the book he intended. Personally I don't care if aFfC was "the calm berfore the storm" or neccessary setup for big events later, or whatever. If Martin publishes "A Treatise on the Flora and Fauna of Westeros", someone will claim that aTotFaFoW is neccessary and essential. Does Westeros have Beavers? Do they have big teeth? Do they make damns along the Trident that may effect the ability of our favorite characters to cross the green fork at a critical time in the story? Please.

If Martin had intended aFfC to be a story about the Southern POVs from the start, it would have been a much better story, IMHO. Instead, he was trying for something bigger, but was forced to publish these smaller chunks. Oh well, I just hope that Martin learns from this experience and finds a way to write/plan/edit better so that there are complete story arcs in the forthcoming books. As much as I like reading a big fantasy series, I have never liked it when the author tries to convince readers that it's really all one big book - so that readers should just *trust* that each installment is important, even it if it's not clear why.

[Ashara]

If you don't understand the title, then it's no wonder you don't understand the complexities of the series, and why Feast is such a great book. Maybe you should revert to early Salvatore, or Harry Potter, and leave the real books for the grown ups.

Now, this is a literary equivalent of Lady Lisa's way of feeding Lord Robert. Come, one does not grow by reading crap.

As for AFFC, the deed is done. I doubt that GRR Martin will finish the Dance, and then sit down to editing and compiling the two books in one.

[Alazander]

Overall, I think you're too harsh. I too doubt Martin accomplished anything he'd set out to accomplish with this book even in his own mind, but the book is not bereft of merit - on an absolute scale, it's still a decent read surprisningly often. It's just that it seriously pales in comparison with what's gone before.

If I were a teacher and Martin a favourite pupil, the verdict on AFfC would be: "Not terrible, but not, I feel, up to George's usual standard."

I absolutely agree. I'm not saying the book was terrible. It did have merits, although for me, very few in the Brienne, Sansa, or Sam chapters. I actually gave it 3 stars over on Amazon, which I think is pretty reasonable.

I'm coming across as being so harsh because some of these posts have driven me "over the edge" with their feeble justifications, excuses, and fanboy rhetoric. See the "You must not have read the other books in the series" post for an example.

[Analu]

Personally I don't care if aFfC was "the calm berfore the storm" or neccessary setup for big events later, or whatever. If Martin publishes "A Treatise on the Flora and Fauna of Westeros", someone will claim that aTotFaFoW is neccessary and essential. Does Westeros have Beavers? Do they have big teeth? Do they make damns along the Trident that may effect the ability of our favorite characters to cross the green fork at a critical time in the story? Please.

But if you don't care about AFFC, why even post about it? I don't mean to start a personal argument, IoT, but if you don't care about it, how can you care about the series and what comes next? I agree that AFFC was not what Martin intended, and I think he would agree with you too, given his statements, but to bash those (myself among them) who believe that this book is a necessary setup for future books is wrong, IMO.

[Alazander]

But if you don't care about AFFC, why even post about it? I don't mean to start a personal argument, IoT, but if you don't care about it, how can you care about the series and what comes next? I agree that AFFC was not what Martin intended, and I think he would agree with you too, given his statements, but to bash those (myself among them) who believe that this book is a necessary setup for future books is wrong, IMO.

I don't think he's bashing anyone. I think he's saying that, no matter what subject matter a book covers, it needs to stand up on its own merits... and that you can't simply brush any faults aside with "Oh, it's part of a grander plan, you'll understand some day. Young grasshopper."

[High Septon]

I'd say that technically, Brienne's arch is complete. Her last chapter will definitely change her goal and purpose in the series (though I don't like the cliffhanger. It would easily have given a better sense of completion if we'd known what word she shouted, at least).

The problem is that her PoV could almost have been covered up in a prologue chapter, since nothing overtly important to the plot happens during her voyage, and her character doesn't change much, like Jaime's does in ASOS.

Jaime's is complete as well, since the last chapter (probably) shows him breaking the ties to his sister. But compared to his arch in ASOS, the character development he goes through seems rather minor (and the important event in his PoV, Riverrun's fall, COULD have been told offscreen, even if it was hardly any loss that it wasn't).

That makes me question whether AFFC wasn't rather overlong and some of it quite unnecessary as merely setup, and that he could have edited it and combined it with ADWD for greater impact.

[Reskyr]

I don't think he's bashing anyone. I think he's saying that, no matter what subject matter a book covers, it needs to stand up on its own merits... and that you can't simply brush any faults aside with "Oh, it's part of a grander plan, you'll understand some day. Young grasshopper."

I think Martin set himself up a little here with a poorly phrased apology. To claim that he is telling the complete stories of half the character is a little misleading. Given that this is the middle of a looong series, unless a major character dies, it's unlikely that their "complete stories" would be wrapped up here. I can't think of too many POVs who fulfilled their roles and exited stage left without dying. Martin's disclaimer set up some false expectations, IMO.

That, coupled with the exclusion of some popular "central" POVS, the introduction of several characters who, until now, had barely been mentioned or not at all and hadn't played a pivotal role in the series, the lack of any "blockbuster moments" (Red Weddings, beheadings, and undeadings, oh my), a lot of spoilers being read and, shockingly, spoiling some things, and the long wait for this installment, and it's not surprising that several readers are dissatisfied.

However, I still enjoyed AFFC, and don't feel the need to make apologies for my take on it. The atmosphere of aftermath and the building tension of the next big storm, the great small character moments (Jon and the snow in Sam's hair echoing AGOT, Sam smashing the singer and getting thrown out of the tavern, Arya stowing Needle and refusing to abandon her past completely, etc.). It's not my favorite of the books, but, for me, it's not a huge dropoff either.

Not everyone who enjoyed the book is a rabid fanboy just refusing to admit it's faults.