The Redemption of Jaime Lannister

[The Pita]

I've been thinking a lot about this subject in that past... umm... time since I've read AFFC, even more since my latest re-read (a week ago).

I don't think a single forumgoer, even the "Jaime is evil and should be murdered by everyone" group, thinks that Jaime won't try redeeming himself. I don't believe anyone believes he'll live by the end of the books.

The simple fact is, we have a character who is set to die. Everything is completely set. Even a reason. He wants to serve his king. So we have a character who is going to die, did evil deeds in the past, and is going to try to redeem himself.

He's going to redeem himself in death, as I have stated.

I think, it's going to be Catelyn who kills him, not Daenerys as I previously thought.

The fact is, that Daenerys is in a strange mindset now. She's re-evaluating people. Barristan, who was "evil" in her book for serving Robert, is now her most loyal helper. Jorah, once her most faithful servant, is now her enemy, at least in her mind. Jaime may have killed her father. But as she is learning from Barristan, it might not have been such an evil deed. She may have mercy for the Kingslayer.

But here's Catelyn. She is a demented zombie. Her main plans include: Avenging her son, killing the ones who took her daughters (Namely, Cockless who took them, Noseless who said he'll return them, and Handless who vowed to bring them back). She has a lot of information in the form of Tom of Sevens, so she knows everything in the kingdom.

She'll also know how Jaime tormented her brother, not just by bringing the one person he truly despised to sing for him, but also by threatening to give him his son with an object not quite suited for the task.

"With a trebuchet"

heh

Jaime's death will also involve Brienne. I don't know how. I think Jaime may save her life from Catelyn. Obviously, this can't happen now, as Jaime is in Riverrun while Brienne is near Riverrun, but on a noose, screaming a word.

I think Brienne may get loose by saying a word (the popular consensus is "sword"), and lying for the first time. Catelyn will capture her again, and Jaime will arrive.

But that would be so amazingly cliche'd I get the feeling it might be the other way, what with her being an amazing warrior and Jaime being Handless.

[Tetyr]

Tbh, I think Jamie is one of the best characters in the books and I would be displeased if he dies. However, it seems pretty obvious that Jamies' death, although yet to come, is a definite one. I believe his end will be one with some kind of meaning, either personal or symbolical, like dying for the king.

I also believe that he's going to kill Cersei, maybe that's where he'll go down.

[The Pita]

He's obviously the Valonqar, although there is a thread about that subject.

EDIT-My knighthood has been confirmed by a noble house!

[Jacen]

Gotta love Jaime. Anyone that can make you forget the fact he shags his sister and tries to kill children-simply because he is witty- has my admiration!

Couple points:

1 .He's definately going to die. That dream he has on the weirwood (hint: prophetic) stump seems to indicate his going to die sooner rather then later, more then any other sign we have read about. Doom, doom, doom. Brienne was in the dream as well, so yes she will be involved somehow. I also wonder if Casterly rock has significance or that was the site of the dream simply because he thinks of it as home..

2. I have to agree with the original poster, about Jaime's biggest threat being Catelyn. He has to worry more about her than Dany at the moment. Interestingly, he knows of neither threat.

3. Just for the sake of irony, I think he is indeed the valonquar. And the fact that it has been emphazied many times that Jaime was second out of the womb.

4. For me, reading the Red Wedding was painful enough. But the thing that sent it over the edge was Roose saying " Jaime Lannister sends his regards", and then he runs Robb through. By that time in ASOS I had fallen for the Jaime character, and I realzied right away that line would get Jaime in a lot of trouble later on, possibly even cause his death. Stoneheart is not going to croak for good until she gets a chance to kill Jaime.

[Kalbear]

Gotta love Jaime. Anyone that can make you forget the fact he shags his sister and tries to kill children-simply because he is witty- has my admiration!

It's also because he's really pretty. Don't forget the power of rock-hard abs to make people forget that they kill children.

[blackforest67]

Gotta love Jaime. Anyone that can make you forget the fact he shags his sister and tries to kill children-simply because he is witty- has my admiration!

Couple points:

1 .He's definately going to die. That dream he has on the weirwood (hint: prophetic) stump seems to indicate his going to die sooner rather then later, more then any other sign we have read about. Doom, doom, doom. Brienne was in the dream as well, so yes she will be involved somehow. I also wonder if Casterly rock has significance or that was the site of the dream simply because he thinks of it as home..

2. I have to agree with the original poster, about Jaime's biggest threat being Catelyn. He has to worry more about her than Dany at the moment. Interestingly, he knows of neither threat.

3. Just for the sake of irony, I think he is indeed the valonquar. And the fact that it has been emphazied many times that Jaime was second out of the womb.

4. For me, reading the Red Wedding was painful enough. But the thing that sent it over the edge was Roose saying " Jaime Lannister sends his regards", and then he runs Robb through. By that time in ASOS I had fallen for the Jaime character, and I realzied right away that line would get Jaime in a lot of trouble later on, possibly even cause his death. Stoneheart is not going to croak for good until she gets a chance to kill Jaime.

In response to the idea about Dany. A lot of people have said that it would be pretty interesting if Dany found Jaime seated on the Iron Throne, with Cersei's dead body underneath it. I would love that scene. For me it would be awesome if Dany sees Jaime on the Iron Throne, and then forgives Jaime for killing her father, however painful it would be, and then sends him and Brienne into the riverlands to deal with Catelyn. At which point Catelyn kills him or something. Although I hope someone kills Catelyn. I will love which ever character does this. Maybe the Hound?

[Tanaqui]

Yeah, I'm in the same camp as most people--Jaime is doomed (though I say that with a lot of remorse--he is easily one of my favorite characters :cry: ). I would put a lot of money on Dany killing him, despite what you said, Pita. I mean, it's one thing to serve the Usurper, as Barristan did, but a whole other thing to have murdered her father, as Jaime did. And Jaime won't have time to ingratiate himself to Dany as Barristan did under a disguise. When Dany lands in Westeros, she will be looking for revenge, I think. And who more satisfying to wreak vengeance on than the unrepentant (when it comes to Aerys), snarky bastard who killed your father? Unless Jaime will somehow go into hiding, but with his current search for redemption, I don't see that. I'm not saying UnCat won't kill him--she certainly is the more immediate threat.

Edit: You got knighted, Pita, and I got a horse! And maybe a rusty sword! Woot!

[The Pita]

Here's the problem.

Barristan knows Jaime as a young-looking, golden armored, two handed, amazing with a sword, totally evil person, with no beard whatsoever.

White armor, one hand, slightly oldish looking, has skills with a sword like I have with a doublebladed axe(i get it in my back), and is not that bad a guy once you get past the threat to Edmure, and a beard is not much. Especially in a world where an old man can grow a beard and look like someone else completely.

[Anya, Vengeance Demon]

White armor, one hand, slightly oldish looking, has skills with a sword like I have with a doublebladed axe(i get it in my back), and is not that bad a guy once you get past the threat to Edmure, and a beard is not much. Especially in a world where an old man can grow a beard and look like someone else completely.

Well, no. Barristan grew a beard and managed to fool Jorah (for a while), who had seen him several times at a distance. Barristan and Jaime worked together for over a decade, however, so Barristan would be much more likely to recognize him in a different circumstance. Recall that in ASOS the Lannister guardsmen recognized Jaime "at once", and the only person who didn't really recognize him was Kettleblack, who had never met him before.

[Tanaqui]

Like I said, I don't think Jaime would make a concerted effort to go into hiding--if someone were to lead an army against Dany's forces, I would be willing to bet he would be one of the leaders. He is taking his Kingsguard vows seriously, now, and his main duty is to protect the king. And despite his newfound caution, he still has a recklessly brave streak, especially when those he cares about are threatened. He would confront Barristan rather than do the more prudent thing and stay off of Dany's radar.

And I agree with you, Fat Man--Barristan served with him long enough that he would recognize him despite the beard and all. I think he might seek him out as well--he had some choice words for Cersei when she named Jaime Lord Commander. He thinks Jaime is scum, and wouldn't scorn the chance to fight him as he probably always wanted to since Jaime betrayed his vows.

[Jacen]

Which leads to another quandry for Jaime. He has always expressed frustration with his vows, claiming that no one could hold to all his vows without breaking others. In the past he gave up. Now he seems bent on keeping his vows as best he can.

Who is his oath to? The king? Tommen is the king, but Jaime knows damn well he is not legit. Are the Targaryens the rightful kings, no matter who sits the throne? Did they not rule the 7 kingdoms by right of conquest, meaning their claim is no better then anyone else's?

If Dany comes calling, he will have to choose again which vows he honors and which he abandons. Between his king AND son. Against this is the (some would say) rightful Queen, and his brother. Another hard choice for him. Last time the choice was between the king he swore an oath to and his father. He choose Lord Tywin.

Imagine how much harder this new choice will be; on both sides he has family. I never get the impression that Jaime could kill Tyrion. He doesn't have that in him. Tyrion, on the flip side, I could easily see killing his brother.

Of course, all of this is assuming that Tommen manages to hold the throne until D-Day.

[Wargonaut]

Unfortunately, I agree with nearly all of you. Sadly, Jaime will die.

The thing I am most sure of about the series is that Catelyn will definitely cause problems with Jaime's part in the story. I think she will be the end of him. I also think his death will come an a very inopportune time in the story (ie, Oberyn Martell, Ned Stark, and Robb Stark).

The biggest shock that could come to me when all is said and done would be finding Jaime Lannister alive at the end of Book 7.

[cudgel_the_clever]

The Lannister House is headed for certain doom but i've this twisted notion that Jaime will survive all that's yet to come. Wishful thinking, perhaps, but the poor bastard has grown in to one of my fave characters.

[Daemrion]

Everyone seems to forget Bran meeting Jaime again too.

[Merling]

Yeah, I'm in the same camp as most people--Jaime is doomed (though I say that with a lot of remorse--he is easily one of my favorite characters :cry: ). I would put a lot of money on Dany killing him, despite what you said, Pita. I mean, it's one thing to serve the Usurper, as Barristan did, but a whole other thing to have murdered her father, as Jaime did. And Jaime won't have time to ingratiate himself to Dany as Barristan did under a disguise. When Dany lands in Westeros, she will be looking for revenge, I think. And who more satisfying to wreak vengeance on than the unrepentant (when it comes to Aerys), snarky bastard who killed your father? Unless Jaime will somehow go into hiding, but with his current search for redemption, I don't see that.

I don't think Dany will do it. One of the themes running through the books is that revenge isn't all it's cracked up to be - see Martell, Oberyn, and Baratheon, Joffrey. GRRM has Dany learning that lesson right now - she's learning to forgive when she needs to.

I think she'll let Jaime be, if it comes to that. However, I think Jaime will die - and it won't be by Dany's hands. Maybe he'll get kicked in the head by Honour or Glory. Hee - "Death or glory!" - how about "death by glory!"

[The Winged Shadow]

I don't think UnCat will be the end of Jaime...mainly because that would be totally awesome revenge scene. And GRRM has denied us proper vengeance on almost every opportunoty he got. Its always been some sort of random death lol. Also, I trully hope that Jaime never redeems himself in the eye of Westeros. Because that would be totally predictable and forgettable. As soon as he redeems himself and becomes the "good guy", most people (readers) will forget him. I think a tragic Jaime end will be the best way to go, where he doesnt redeem himself...but sorta tries to XD.

[BrainFireBob]

Somehow, I always saw Jaime as joining whatever will be the equivalent of the Watch, if such a thing survives. He'd be a good LC- he's got the skills, the talent, and the distaste for living anything other than a simple soldier's life growing in him.

[Fatuous]

Once a Kingslayer, always a Kingslayer. I would say he's the only Kingsguard loyal to the Iron Throne and not the butt sitting on it,

Look at Selmy, he served loyally first for Aerys and then Robert and finally Joffrey and if Joffrey didn't dismiss him, he would still be serving his King. Selmy went out to find the rightful ruler for the Iron Throne but it's hard to say if he's correct. What if he's wrong again? Would he go seek out another worthy King?

Jaime on the other hand is staying near the Throne even though he's unhappy with the people on it, first Aerys then Robert and now even Joffrey and Cersei bother him {Tommen may be crowned and all but he's not the one in power}. For a sworn member of the Kingsguard, he spends a lot of time out of King's Landing and so he didn't even get a chance to kill Robert and Joffrey in his own right, both clearly Usurpers in his eyes.

His redemption? While Jaime named the sword Oathkeeper, keep in mind that he gave it away for a promise, for Brienne to do the duty of a knight and protect the weak and fight the wicked in the name of justice. Since the duty of the Kingsguard is to protect the strong {who's stronger than a King?} and obey their commands just or not, I can see the conflict than Jaime has faced his entire life as knight and Kingsguard.

His redemption is the redemption of the Iron Throne. I do not see him dying.

[DanteGabriel]

Jaime on the other hand is staying near the Throne even though he's unhappy with the people on it, first Aerys then Robert and now even Joffrey and Cersei bother him {Tommen may be crowned and all but he's not the one in power}. For a sworn member of the Kingsguard, he spends a lot of time out of King's Landing and so he didn't even get a chance to kill Robert and Joffrey in his own right, both clearly Usurpers in his eyes.

You can't even go a paragraph without contradicting yourself.

His redemption is the redemption of the Iron Throne. I do not see him dying.

He's doomed. Dead dead dead.

[Crow's Eye]

He's doomed. Dead dead dead.

The dead part I certainly agree with. He's not going to survive the series, particularly if he is to have any sort of redemption. I don't think he could ever be 'redeemed' by following vows or being loyal to this person or the next. His redemption won't be in the minds of the people, who will always recall him as the Kingslayer (or sister-fucker, or child-murderer, take your pick). The redemption he is looking for will be from within - not from some external praise or congratulations. If he is to be redeemed, I think his death will be his act of redemption, and it will be a death freely chosen.

How do I think it will happen? For whatever reason, I can see Jaime ending up on the Wall (or with what's left of hte Night's Watch, in any event). I don't think his story will be contained solely to the events in King's Landing. Two possibilities leap to mind: One, where the truth about Tommen's parentage comes out in some respect during Cersei's trial, and rather than fight against whatever the consequences would be, he takes the Black instead. THe other would be in the event that Dany does come into her own as Queen of Westeros, she will likely have Tyrion at her side. Despite the way their last meeting went, I really don't think that Tyrion would want Jaime to be killed, and would convince Dany to let him take the black (also knowing Jon Snow, newly-minted LC of the Watch, and knowing the NW's need for good men). Then his death would be in service to the Watch and Kingdom against the Others, which would be a death worthy of redemption in some fashion.

Although I tend to think his fate is intertwined with Brienne's in some way, particularly if she has shouted "sword" (as opposed to "Arya"), I don't think he will ever be redeemed if his fate is to die at the hands of Stoneheart.