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the Dany hate thread


gizermaot

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Dany in my opinion is the most shallow character in ASOIAF. while I did like her in AGOT, when she lived in fear from Vyseris (gods have mercy on his soul :(), now I just can't stand that arrogant bitch. It seems to me that she has become as mad as her brother (although she's much smarter) and obssessed with conquering Westeros - a place she never even saw, unlike Vyseris. and what bothers me most is her dragons, and the possiblity that by the end of the series it will be she who sits on the Iron Throne. Personally, I don't care who will sit on the Throne in the end, as long as it's not her or Jon. Heck, it can be the dead body of Lommy Greenhands for all I care.

who knows, maybe Dany will be "crowned" too. It'd be a fitting end to her.

P.S - I do like Dany's chapters, but only because of the exotic cultures and intriguing characters we get to see in them; Gotta love the slaver who sold her the unsullied :)

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she's ok, in my book. her POV's were a little formulaic for me towards the end but she's apparently going to be surrounded by powerful characters in the near future so things are definitely looking up for her.

the downside that i see for her is that, so far, her main supporters seem to be dorne and pyke; arguably, the weakest families in westeros (they are entirely dependant upon their locale for advantage). i use the term "supporters" loosely because i really feel that to euron she's just part of a plan.

i do, however; agree that dany on the iron throne is weak.

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Haven't seen a Dany hate thread in couple of months, I was beginning to wonder if something was wrong. :mellow:

As always, I really like Dany. She has some Mary Sueish traits, but a teenage conqueror almost most have. I love that Martin portrays her as arrogant and believing in her destiny to rule. It's almost as if she was real medieval royalty and not the the standard fantasy tomboy princess longing for the kitchen boy and democracy.

I also really like her resilience and adaptability, she never sits down and feel sorry for herself, she just find a way to solve the problem. And she does by still being a woman in world ruled by men.

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I think Dany's character is actually very interesting. If you look at the Targ family history, there are the super-villains and heroes, but you never really figure out much of their inner psychology either way. For instance, Aemon the Dragonknight is supposed to be the greatest that ever lived, but we never get to see either his heroic or anti-heroic exploits (there must have been some darkness to him or at least some human moments of weakness, such as the ones that likely sired Daeron II, heh).

Dany is a basically good person (not too selfish, fairly compassionate, generally prudent in her decisions, adapts well and problem solves rather than ranting and raving and filling a city full of wildfire) who has the heavy burden of her family's legacy to uphold. Her quest for vengeance is at least partially just, since Robert's rebellion did take the lives of nearly her entire family--including not just the Mad King but also Prince Rhaegar, his wife, and their children.

Like others have said, she does indeed believe she was born with a right to rule, but that's not necessarily arrogance. If I birthed the last three living dragons out of stone, I might believe there was divine mandate to my actions as well. Furthermore, she seems to believe that rule is not only her right but also her responsibility--she attempts to do justice in her dealings, even if it is brutal lex taleonis justice as w/ the 160-odd slave masters she had nailed up in Yunkai.

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I don't like her. She's become too arrogant and hypocrit. And even the most stupid man/woman of Westeros could conquer the Seven Kingdoms with 10.000 Unsullied and 3 Dragons. She didn't really win anything by herself, she just received gifts because of her status, and she was lucky. She leaves most of her work to her minions, and she boasts all the time "OHHHH I'M THE STORMBORN, THE MOTHER OF DRAGONS, THE LAST OF THE TARGARYENS, THE UNBURNT, THE KHAALESI AND QUEEN OF WESTEROS! I RULE MAN!!11"

I respect LF more than Daenerys. LF made himself. If it wasn't for Vyseris, Khal Drogo, Illirio and Varys, Ser Barristan, her dragons, Mormont and other people, she would be NOTHING. She would be DEAD.

Fly down bitch!

I hope that Euron will "steal" her dragons and kill her :pirate:

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I agree that Dany has become dangerously arrogant by the end of A Storm of Swords. At the start of the last chapter, she's comparing herself to the gods gazing down at their creation. However, I'd be surprised if this attitude didn't take a serious beating over the course of ADWD; it seems pretty clear to me that she's being set up for a fall.

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I just wish someone would have the balls to tell her that her dad was nuts and that the lords she calls the "usurpers" had the choice of fighting or being killed. and that her family isnt divine and having a right to rule Westeros...Targs were only there for 300 years...outve 10,000 years of history, i hope she stays on the other side of the world.

I do like what goes on in her chapters, i just dont like her, i agree with all the anti-dany stuff that has been said.

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I don't like her. She's become too arrogant and hypocrit. And even the most stupid man/woman of Westeros could conquer the Seven Kingdoms with 10.000 Unsullied and 3 Dragons. She didn't really win anything by herself, she just received gifts because of her status, and she was lucky. She leaves most of her work to her minions, and she boasts all the time "OHHHH I'M THE STORMBORN, THE MOTHER OF DRAGONS, THE LAST OF THE TARGARYENS, THE UNBURNT, THE KHAALESI AND QUEEN OF WESTEROS! I RULE MAN!!11"

I respect LF more than Daenerys. LF made himself. If it wasn't for Vyseris, Khal Drogo, Illirio and Varys, Ser Barristan, her dragons, Mormont and other people, she would be NOTHING. She would be DEAD.

Fly down bitch!

I hope that Euron will "steal" her dragons and kill her :pirate:

Littlefinger would have been nothing without Lysa Arryn. I'd rather have Barristan's endorsment than Lysa's.

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She didn't really win anything by herself, she just received gifts because of her status, and she was lucky.

Much like every other important character in the story then.

She leaves most of her work to her minions, and she boasts all the time

Somehow I don’t think you would like her more if she lead from the front killing her enemies in single combat.

I find it extremely amusing, that Dany always gets criticism for not deserving her success because of her status. Yet people like Rob Stark has so many fanboys, despite being handed everything on a silver platter. Wealth, an army, a host of powerful relatives. He never had to go to the market and buy his own stuff, like Dany did as a child, yet somehow he is never called arrogant for engaging in a civil war that costs his subject their life’s and property,

Also people gets irritated by her tiresome “blood of the dragon†routine, but too me it makes sense. Her exalted birth is the source of her limited power, it’s the reason people can’t ignore her like other teenage girls. It’s small wonder that she finds comfort in reminding herself and others of this constantly.

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Also people gets irritated by her tiresome “blood of the dragon†routine, but too me it makes sense. Her exalted birth is the source of her limited power, it’s the reason people can’t ignore her like other teenage girls. It’s small wonder that she finds comfort in reminding herself and others of this constantly.

It is also another example of double standard. Robb and Arya are constantly comparing themselves to wolves and Tyrion to a lion (and for the same reason as well. Identifying with their sigil animal is for them source of inner strength) , but they are almost never criticsed for it.

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I don't hate Dany, but I didn't find her story interesting so far.

I feel like her rise to power was one of the worst parts in the book, writing-wise, nearly on the same level of Jon getting promoted to LC of the Night's Watch. I won't use the term "deus ex machina" since it's not coming out of nowhere, but during her arc you could clearly see the classic authorial tricks used to give her the edge.

She begins as powerless with potential (Targaryen), gets a mentor (Jorah) and some borrowed power (Drogo), progressively gains confidence (Humiliates Vyserys, controls Drogo), shakes off her restrictions (loses Drogo and Rhaego) while getting a power-up (gets dragons), then finds a super-loyal army out of nowhere (Unsullieds) and proceeds from there.

And Throughout the whole story, her opponents suffer from the dumbing effects of the hero aura: Vyserys just conveniently suicides from stupidity, assassins sent after her are few, far between and unskilled, Astapor merchants neglect the basic security rules of weapon dealers and Dothrakis just let her go after Drogo's death.

Now that she has power and will oppose other PoVs rather than rather nameless grunts, I expect her to grow more real, though. It's high time she had some unexpected sharp curve on her golden road, or at least Robb's level of opponents.

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I used to be a big Dany-hater, but eventually you have to come to accept that she will play a significant role in both saving the world and setting the political situation to rights by the end (even if she doesn't rule at the end I expect that her arrival and ensuing battles will bring about some significant changes for the better).

I find it interesting that haters often fall on opposite sides of the spectrum: either Dany is so utterly perfect (she holds councils and listens to her advisors, frees slaves, is generous and compassionate, punishes slaveowners and criminals without discrimination, treats her servants with respect, is rarely fooled by those trying to take advantage of her, is beautiful, has a super weapon(s), etc. etc.) as to be a sickening heroic cliche or her being so utterly perfect is a trap to mask her supreme arrogance in believing she is the ultimate arbiter of authority, moral and otherwise.

My biggest problem these days is that the chips always seem to fall in her favor in the end. I certainly can't fault her extraordinary determination, intuition, and intelligence. But she has also had a lot handed to her because of her name, her beauty, and especially her dragons. Not to mention that Westeros has been ravaged by war and political idiocy such that only two houses remain with full strength to oppose her, and one of those is actually seeking to ally itself. But it's not Dany's fault when that things out of her control work out for her; that's the way the story goes. Blame GRRM for putting Dany on a throne while the Stark kids have lost a number of the same things Dany has lacked for her entire life, without getting equivalent compensation (yes, three dagons >> one direwolf, "Khaleesi" and "Mother of Dragons" >> "nobody" or "Alayne," Barristan's company >> LF's company, and Mereen >> beyond the Wall, especially now). ;)

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Yeah, I think it's important to note when dislike for a character comes from a certain too-good-to-be-true quality, either in traits or fortune ... often that's the product of comparing to other characters' fates at the given time of comparison, and you never know when any one character's luck might run out. I do agree that if the author writes a character as an unfailing victorious hero, we have to accept it. Really, what else can we do? But the story isn't written yet, so no matter what you feel we all still have to wait and see what happens. I trust Martin to not let things get too neat and tidy at the end.

Dany isn't my favorite, I do find her story arc a little ... typical *gulp* ... but still I find her an interesting person, and I wouldn't change her arrogance for anything. To me it's easy to see where it's coming from and why it might seem necessary to a person in her position. Face is everything with these people, if you need to convince people that you have an inherent right to rule them you're probably going to need to be confident to say the least.

I find it interesting that haters often fall on opposite sides of the spectrum: either Dany is so utterly perfect [...] as to be a sickening heroic cliche or her being so utterly perfect is a trap to mask her supreme arrogance in believing she is the ultimate arbiter of authority, moral and otherwise.

Ender, I think this is just different readers gauging the writer's intentions differently. It's a natural impulse for the reader to try to get inside the author's head a little (aka get to know the rules of the narrative) to try to predict what'll happen. If you just settle on her being a heroic cliche then you probably would predict a heroic, cliched ending for her character arc, but if you believe the author might use the invincibility for ironic effect you open yourself up to more possibilities, in which case there is more suspense.

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Yeah, I think it's important to note when dislike for a character comes from a certain too-good-to-be-true quality, either in traits or fortune ... often that's the product of comparing to other characters' fates at the given time of comparison, and you never know when any one character's luck might run out. I do agree that if the author writes a character as an unfailing victorious hero, we have to accept it. Really, what else can we do? But the story isn't written yet, so no matter what you feel we all still have to wait and see what happens. I trust Martin to not let things get too neat and tidy at the end.

.

Excellent points. Could not agree more.

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My main problem with Dany is her split personality.

One moment she's brilliant, making all the plays and everything like she is God(s). The next minute she suddenly transforms into a daft fool/absolute idiot...she's either one extreme or the other. That's what makes her hard to connect on an emotional, intellectual or any level with.

And she isn't helped by being an isolated POV either. That means we don't really have any critique of her from other character POVs at all.

Frankly, her arc through the first three/four books has almost felt utterly pointless at times.

The lack of reflection that Enguerrand points out is probably another reason why one feels no connection on any level with Dany the person. I couldn't care less about a Dany POV. She's just not interesting and doesn't connect emotionally.

The difference between Robb and Dany is that Robb's direwolf is shared with the other Starks. More characters get and use their direwolves. Jon for instance, Bran too.

Furthermore, with Robb's rebellion against the Iron Throne, there is the fact that it is one supported by his major Lords, it wasn't like he unilaterally forced everyone else to fight. The other Lords like the Umbers and the Karstarks wanted to fight too. And in any case, their fight started as one to relieve Riverrun which was being invaded.

A lot of difference there. Robb was riding to Riverrun to help his uncle. Dany is intending to start a war of conquest with a foreign army.

Also people gets irritated by her tiresome “blood of the dragon†routine, but too me it makes sense.

Just because it makes sense doesn't mean it's not irritating. I get irritated by smoking but I can understand why people smoke.

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My main problem with Dany is her split personality.

One moment she's brilliant, making all the plays and everything like she is God(s). The next minute she suddenly transforms into a daft fool/absolute idiot...she's either one extreme or the other. That's what makes her hard to connect on an emotional, intellectual or any level with.

And she isn't helped by being an isolated POV either. That means we don't really have any critique of her from other character POVs at all.

Frankly, her arc through the first three/four books has almost felt utterly pointless at times.

Dany has of course experienced great losses. MMD totally outsmarted her, destroying her husband, her baby, and nearly her life. (Regardless of whether MMD had magic or not.) In a sense, she's been fortunate since then, because she had nowhere to go but up from that low point.

Also, there are clever people behind the scenes, smoothing her path, for their own purposes. Illyrio and Varys obviously want Dany and her dragons.

I have this nagging feeling about Varys words to Illyrio, "make haste I say". Presumably Illyrio was handling Dany's side over in the east. But how could Illyrio possibly "make haste"? They even commented on how Drogo wouldnt move until his son was born. Did Illyrio actually do something to get Drogo and Rhaego out of the way fast?

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Guest Other-in-law
I agree that Dany has become dangerously arrogant by the end of A Storm of Swords. At the start of the last chapter, she's comparing herself to the gods gazing down at their creation.

I'm not sure how accurate it is to read arrogance into that brief passage. To me it seemed like no more than musing about the perspective from the top of an 800 foot tall pyramid, and the sad isolation that power causes...not unlike Stannis' "Kings don't have friends, only enemies and subjects", ie: the changes wrought by a person's position. It's not like she's cackling about how she can smite down anyone who displeases her or reveling in her omnipotence in any way.

Daemrion,

The difference between Robb and Dany is that Robb's direwolf is shared with the other Starks. More characters get and use their direwolves. Jon for instance, Bran too.

So it's her fault that her family was annihilated, mostly before she was even born? I'm not sure how this is a strike against her.

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Littlefinger would have been nothing without Lysa Arryn. I'd rather have Barristan's endorsment than Lysa's.

Littlefinger was probably still eating mudpies at 13 and 14 years old. I think it's more appropriate to compare Dany to Arya and Sansa than characters nearly 3x her age.

Dany is my favorite character, personally, so I'm a bit of an apologist. I never found her arrogance too difficult to stomach.

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I don't like her much, and I think a lot of that has to do with my first read of the books, I had thought the Targaryeons to all be villains. I've softened a bit on her since the Targs have grown on me a bit, especially though reading the Dunc and Eggs stories but I still don't think I want to see her happy and on the throne though.

I do usually enjoy her chapters, however I always dread coming to them because they are so far away from everything else, and usually come after a cliff hanger in Westoros.

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I don't like Dany much, but I think for me it's about the opposite: I can't stand most of Dany's chapters in AGOT (those are the only chapters I skim at rereads) and only with the dragons her story begins to be interesting IMO. Dany as a character never appealed to me, and I got my fix of weird cultures beyond the Wall (well I found the entire westerosi culture as fascinating also so...)

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