Your Good and Evil Spectrum

[Markus]

I am surprised at how many times Tyrion ends up on the more evil spectrum, especially more there than Arya. He isn't completely saintly, but since he stuck up for Sansa in GOT I have always thought of him as knightly. He does try to do the right thing and thinks of helping others and how his actions affect other people. Outside of war I think the only person he has killed was Tywin right? Aryas killed about a dozen, pretty coldly.

Killing Tywin is hardly the only thing Tyrion can be accused of. One can probably even make a case for Tyrion acting out of self defense and/or that Tywin's crimes warranted being executed under westerosi law, and that Tyrion simply took the law into his own hands because Tywin was in control of the institutions which should have punished him.

In any case, Tyrion has arguably done worse things than killing Tywin, disregarding the kinslaying aspect for the sake of argument. He ordered the murder of Symon Silver Tongue to protect Shae but also out of convenience, and he killed Shae out of revenge.

Tyrion took the part of his family against the Starks and Stannis despite knowing of most of their crimes against Robert and Ned. If one were to believe that Tyrion owed loyalty to Robert as his king and Stannis as Robert's legitimate successor and to the laws which his family had disregarded on numerous occasions, then one may think that Tyrion is a traitor and a criminal who is partly responsible for thousands of deaths in the war. His schemes like the alliance with the Tyrells or the destruction of Stannis' fleet on the Blackwater with wildfire and the chain surely cost thousands of lifes and had a major impact on the course of the war.

Tyrion also participated in the gangrape of his 14 year old wife.

He planned to arm the wildlings of the Mountains of the Moon and to let them raid the Vale of Arryn where they would have plundered, raped and murdered the populace.

I don't think that Tyrion should be considered as evil though. While he has clearly done some morally objectionable things there can be said enough good things about him to balance them.

As to Arya, all her actual killings can arguably be regarded as self defense or in the case of Dareon self-administered justice.

[hnv]

realy evil:

joff-sociopath and self centered with heavy issues

gregor-like wise

arya-she is corrupted she feels nothing anymore like a child soldier...she will kill for a piece of bread

evil:

LF

visreys

the rest are realy grey

[Stark Loyalist]

Littlefinger

GOOD

the things you guys arn't realizing about Littlefinger is that everythings he's doing is for the greater good....so of course he has to be a great and good guy.

Um, is this a joke? Because I have not seen LF commit a single act not purely in his self-interest.

[Too Good To Be True]

I would put Arya and Tyrion about the same really. Tyrion's life has been unpleasant really from day 1, only Jaime ever looked out for him and that was surely soured after the lies over Tysha. He has never really experienced love in any way (OK Tysha but he believed that was a lie for ten years). Arya on the other hand had a safe and loving - if slightly stuffy for her - existence until she was nearly 10. Thus her quick descent into kill-happy mode whilst not yet into puberty is perhaps more shocking and "evil" than Tyrion's twenty years of bitterness and resentment that TBH he dealt with pretty well until the events leading to him killing Tywin.

Arya's killings have mostly been in self-preservation if not in outright self-defence, or out of a sense of righteousness - the weasel soup, or Chiswyck, for instance. Then again, the fact that she had her own personal assassin gave her a sense of greatened self-worth and power, which is perhaps rather 'evil' for a girl of no more than eleven.

Tyrion's too have been for self-preservation, or revenge. However his total is surely several hundred, or thousands: all the men who burned on the Blackwater died to prevent harm to him and his immediate family.

I would consider Tyrion and Arya the two greyest characters, with Littlefinger and Varys the next greyest.

Jaime is also grey because of the wild difference in attitudes, although if he stays on the right path so to speak, he could climb the ladder to nearly be "sainted". Certainly, apart from Bran, almost all his killings were in fair fights or battle, apart from Aerys and Rossart which was to protect 100,000 people or more. I'd put Jaime around about Catelyn's level.

[Arch0n]

So I had a notion it would be interesting to try to judge the good and evil of the characters *as it would be judged in Westeros were all facts known*. In other words, assuming that secret deeds of evil are kept secret because they'd meet with moral condemnation (Cersei/Jaime incest), and applying moral standards as they seem to be in Westeros, how do they rank? In thinking about this, I've taken the assumption that Westeros takes "trial by combat" very seriously. If you win the trial by combat, you're innocent because the Gods said so. Robert's kingship was attributed as rightful in part because he won in hand to hand over Rhaegar. It's not quite "might makes right" but rather "might is evidence of right". I've also taken the point of view that people in Westeros tend to take more of a virtue-ethics view, the old heroic code, rather than a modern utilitarian ethical approach, so they are more impressed by the virtue of Ned than by Machievalliean arguments. (All the role-model heroes in the songs of Westeros die tragically doing the right thing, after all).

In order from most evil to most good...

EVIL

Littlefinger - Conspired to murder his king. Conspired to murder the Hand of the King. Participated in cover-up of incest and bastardy in royal household. Murdered his wife. Falsely claimed to take maidenhood of highborn ladies. Took control of Vale under false pretenses. Kidnapped heir to Winterfell and paraded her as a bastard. Littlefinger is exactly what the system of nobility and honor is designed to prevent and most despises.

Cersei Lannister - Conspired to murder her king and husband. Slept with her brother, betrayed her husband, mothered incestuous bastards on the royal household, ordered the murder of the High Septon, and made many foolish decisions as queen. Brought false accusations against daughter in law and conspired in her imprisonment and trial. Participated in necromancy.

Jaime Lannister - Murdered his sworn king, slept with his sister, fathered bastards on the royal household, lost to Rob Stark, turned his back on his family, freed the murderer of his own son and father. Ranks higher than Cersei because he's more competent. Jaime might be able to pull off the "I'm as a special as a Targaryen" argument.

Lysa Arryn - Conspired to murder her husband and Hand of the King, conspired to falsely frame Lannisters for crime, refused to support rightful king in war, raised a weakling, attempted to murder own niece.

Varys - A duplicitous eunuch who maims little children, lies to the great lords of the land, assisted or complicit in murder of Hand of King twice, tried to bring war to the land.

Theon Turncoat - Betrayed his best friend & liege lord, as well as orders of his own king; murdered children; murdered retainers; and he lost, which shows his cause was unjust.

Roose Bolton - Betrayed liege lord with no justification, murdered own king (kingslayer), but was successful and sided with "rightful king".

Walder Frey - Betrayed liege lord with minor justification; violated guest-right; murdered own king; but sided with winning team and "rightful king".

Gregor Clegane - rape and murder of Elia and child; savage pillaging of Riverlands; but sided with winning team and "rightful king," follows orders.

Tyrion Lannister - Murdered his father (patricide), though with justification (falsely accused, false evidence used against him). Slept with whores. Also, an ugly dwarf, which proves the gods think he's evil.

Catelyn Stark - Falsely imprisons Tyrion Lannister on scant evidence, wrongfully frees Jaime Lannister against orders of liege lord. Let's leave aside returning from the dead.

Viserys - Generally a nasty person, basically as bad as Joffrey, made even worse because he was a loser while Joffrey was on the throne.

Joffrey - Generally a nasty person, had his Kingsguard beat his fiancee, delivered injustice when sitting as king. So awful that even Tywin noticed the problem. But hasn't committed anywhere near the crimes of the above.

Sansa Stark - Betrays her father and house to Lannisters out of vain desire to be a princess, does not give husband her maidenhood, lies about her background, complicit in murder of Lysa Arryn.

Arya Stark - A knave who refuses to take her rightful place in society, kills with no pretense of noble combat, presents a false identity, abandons her house, and rejects her gods.

Renly Baratheon - Opportunistically pursued kingdom despite no rightful claim. Got by on charisma and looking like a winner, but if full facts of his "sordid lifestyle" were known he'd be widely despised by Westeros society.

Stannis Baratheon - Widely regarded as a good man until he abandons the Seven for the Red God. Burns people alive, burns septs, and uses terrible shadow magic. But abandons fighting for throne in order to fight to save the kingdom.

Tywin Lannister - Ordered death of Elia and child. Sacked King's Landing. Massacred opposing Houses (Castamere), ordered pillage of Riverlands. But all actions motivated by good of House and/or Kingdom and highly capable, resourceful, favored by gods as a winner. Occasional whoring around easily overlooked, as he'd lost his wife.

Brienne - Tradition-breaker who doesn't accept womanly place in society, she swears mutually incompatible oaths to Catelyn and Jaime and then refuses to make a choice of which to honor.

Samwell - Cowardice is immoral, so that lowers him, but he is good-natured, kind to smallfolk, and tries to do his duty.

Bran Stark - A good kid, but distinclty grey because he tampers with warging and sorcery from the dark past, and has been cursed by the gods with crippling.

Rob Stark - A dutiful son, fights with honor, breaks his word to Frey's but does so to avoid dishonoring a lady, and tries to make it right; undefeated on field of battle, covers himself with glory, beaten only by treachery. If he'd supported Stannis (rightful king) he'd be picture-perfect, but making himself King in the North, and then losing the North, shows over-reach and hubris that lowers his goodness.

Jon Snow - While a bastard and an oath-breaker he eventually maintains his allegiance to his old gods and to his sworn oaths to the Night's Watch. A winner, obviously favored by the gods, so this elevates him.

Davos - A lowborn smuggler, he is elevated to high moral standing by his dutiful support of his liege.

Dany - A dutiful daughter, sister, and wife; as a Targaryen she is entitled to engage in sorcery, so this is forgiven, and her drive to recapture the throne of Westeros is noble, as is her bringing of Westeros virtue (such as freeing slaves) to the barbaric east. She loses points for burning people alive (reminiscent of the old Aerys madness) and for her partial adooption of bad Dothraki ways. Really favored by the gods.

Ned Stark - Does the right thing as defined by the strictest honor code in every circumstance regardless of personal cost to himself. Also highly successful, picked winning team during Robert's Rebellion, and only defeated by Cersei because he offers her mercy. Note that if Ned's side ends up winning at the end of the day, he'll soar even higher, but if his side ends up losing it will lower him in the ranks.

GOOD

[Too Good To Be True]

Archon - I like how yours is slightly different. But there's no way you can excuse Joffrey's crimes, ranging from the cats and hares being killed, to the murder of citizens at his gates; the sadistic treatment of the Antler Men, the attempted murder of Bran, the orders to make men fight to the death, the use of the Hound as a brutal tool, the repeated lying...

[L'Sana]

I wouldn't call Brienne or Davos sainted. Brienne would happy to kill if she was bid to, especially if it was by Renly; she's not kill-happy but she'd go into battle and spill blood. She is moral, but not above suspicion as it were. And Davos was a smuggler; OK, probably to feed his family, but if you use the whole "no victimless crime" scenario, smallfolk in Westeros could suffer because of a lack of tax revenue due to his smuggling And I get the impression he has probably killed men before the Blackwater, in his smuggling days, although probably in a fair fight.

Bran is I suppose "sainted" although being a lord in the making he would have to make unpopular decisions and probably have to kill at some point in the future.

In the year since I wrote the original post, I did change my mind about one of the characters I declared "Saint-like," but ironically enough, it was Bran rather than Davos or Brienne. Not because of any hypothetical actions he may or may not commit in the future, but because of his "mind rape" of Hodor. He knew what he was doing when he did it, he knew Hodor didn't want it to happen, but he did it anyway. Maybe justified, given that Bran is very young and he believed the circumstances were desperate, but still enough to make me uneasy.

It's a good point that Davos is a smuggler. Taking him at his own word, he admits that he's cheated on his wife and done other things he's not proud of, but because he is always honorable "on-screen" I tend to forget about his other crimes.

Brienne...I don't consider a willingness to go into battle by itself a disqualification for saintliness, especially given the battles she ends up fighting. However, she did join Renly's rebellion. As Stannis pointed out, Renly never had a claim to the throne, and those who fought for him knew that they were committing treason. This is a black mark on her record. So I guess the whole "Saint-like" category falls apart.

Didn't Reeksay Bolton kill the miller's children, not Theon?

Or the Ironborn? I doubt Theon would've soiled his gloves. It was Reeksay's idea anyway, not Theon's. Although given that Theon condoned it, and only through cowardice, that could perhaps make it worse than if he'd done it himself. The crime was abominable, but I don't think it makes him more evil than some of the others: Cersei killed a child when she herself was one. Even Arya has done much the same. It's the reasons for his actions (basically his inferiority complex due to his family tradition and the confusing second upbringing) that make him unpleasant; perhaps like Viserys, or even Jaime really.

Whether Theon committed the murders himself or just took the murderers to the mill and ordered them to do it, he's still a child-killer. May have been Reek's idea originally, but Theon was the only one who could have put the plan into action, and he did.

I don't consider Theon more evil than Qyburn or Gregor, but I do consider him the most evil of the PoV characters (which are the only ones I was ranking). Cersei is a murdering bitch, but she loves her children. One redeeming quality does not make her Baelor the Blessed (or even close to being able to slide into the "Darker than Average" category), but it's more than Theon has. As far as I can tell, Theon doesn't give a damn about anyone other than himself. Therefore, even though they both have enough sins to fill all 9 circles of hell by themselves, Theon is (slightly) more evil in my book.

[The Mango]

Seems like when doing their rankings people are only listing the bad things that people have done, and are ignoring the good things.

Tyrion may have done more bad things than Arya, but he has done a lot more good as well.

[Falstaff]

Personally, I think you guys are giving Theon a really hard time. Sure he did betray the Starks but what were the Starks to Theon? Nothing more than captors, because he was a hostage to make sure that the Greyjoys don't try to revolt a second time. I am pretty sure that in aCoK or in aSoS, Theon states that the Starks were nothing more to him than his captors.

And don't forget, he attacked Winterfell to gain his father's love and respect, something he never had because he was being held hostage. And Theon only kills those kids because his plan had fallen to pieces and he was trying to redeem himself to his men.

I am not calling him a good guy for what he did. I think that he is a lot greyer and more neutral than most allow him to be.

[Heal]

I agree Theon isn't that evil...if you think about it....

Also Littlefinger is a good guy as well I wasn't joking around everything he does is for the greater good...because think about it if LF ruled how much better would the kingdom be? The best it's been probably ever...So it's a greater good type deal with LF.

[brideonfire]

first of all, great topic!

second, i'm a little surprised to see theon so high up on the EVIL scale on so many people's lists. Yeah, he is a deplorable little shit, but I chalk this up to his extreme stupidity/insecurity rather than any sort of innate cruelty or sadistic streak. Also, how have so many people left out Ramsay Bolton? I would say he's maybe even more sadistic than his father (I don't think Roose has ever raped a corpse, but I could be wrong.) anyway, here's my list:

EVIL

Gregor Clegane - he killed a BABY. in one of the most violent ways possible.

Ramsay Bolton - killed and flayed two little peasant boys for Theon. starved Lady Hornwood to death. Sex with a corpse (with Reek)

Rorge - Apparently, kidnapped orphans and raised them feral to fight with bears for money (SSM)

Roose Bolton - orchestrated Red Wedding and oh yeah, he has a thing for flaying people.

Littlefinger - I personally really dislike this character. Definitely has a major superiority complex and is somewhat of a sociopath - ie he constantly lies and manipulates people to further his own agenda without any empathy or regard for others. allegedly also started the war of the five kings which has killed and maimed thousands of people in horrible ways, just so he could climb his way up the social ladder.

Vargo Hoat and the Bloody Mummers - A gang composed of the dregs of humanity who opportunistically prey on the weak and defenseless. Most are violent sadists and all are undoubtedly cowardly with no trace of loyalty or honor.

Aerys the Mad King - Burnt Rickard Stark alive while Brandon Stark choked himself to death, was going to blow up all of King's Landing, overall a crazy dangerous prick.

Joffrey - incredible pain in the ass, showed signs of emerging sadism, he's only this low in the list because he never had the chance to grow up to be the truly great monster he was destined to become.

Viserys - Same as Joffrey, but I feel the shit circumstances he grew up in had a hand in shaping the way he came to be.

Cersei - Yes, selfish and arrogant and cruel. But I think she lacks the violent sadistic streak that most people usually identify as truly evil.

Tywin - ordered the wife of his teenage son gangraped in front of him. committed horrible atrocities of war, however, this is mostly motivated by strategy and Tywin's own ambitions, not just for the fun of it.

Theon - Incompetent, arrogant little shit. Sacked Winterfell and killed/betrayed so many people who he had grown up with and who had a part in raising him. However, he does feel guilt, but its never strong enough to actually make a difference.

Lysa Arryn - Ugh. Just so selfish and vindictive and in clear need of therapy.

Sandor Clegane - has major anger management issues. is thrilled/excited by killing. he did grow up with Gregor for an older brother though, so it's kind of understandable...

Jaime - I kind of averaged Jaime out. First book, he would be right up there with Cersei and Tywin, maybe higher. Then in ASOS he became more of a gray character, and now he's getting whiter all the time! If he keeps up with this whole "taking his vows seriously" thing, he might be heading into Ned Stark territory.

Robert Baratheon - he was a womanizing alcoholic and occasional wifebeater. However, he WAS married to Cersei, and also basically kind of a frat boy.

Arya Stark - Sure, she's killed a few people by now (and she's barely a tween), and she's got that nasty revenge thing going on. But...she's a Stark! Plus, they all deserve it, ok?

Catelyn Stark (Pre-UnCat) - She was an alright broad. Tried to do right by her family (even though she actually messed up shit even more.) But what's with telling Jon she wished he had died instead of Bran? Bitchy!

Sansa Stark - Very annoying and a bit of a lickspittle in the beginning. Also, it's hard for me to forgive her for basically telling Cersei of Ned's plans and thusly getting him killed. But she's still an innocent, albeit dumb, child.

Ned Stark - We all know by now. Really, really honorable. Like, seriously. He did kill some people though during wars and such, and personally executed people he considered criminal.

Brienne of Tarth - The only "real" knight in the Seven Kingdoms. Honor-bound, duty-bound, wouldn't hurt a fly unless that fly was trying to hurt some weak and innocent types. Even when being threatened with a hanging, she pleads for Hyle Hunt's and Pod's lives, not for her own.

Bran - An innocent child, nearly Christ-like, really. This might change as he gets older though.

I left out a few people that I think are popular enough that most people can agree on where they stand on the spectrum (ie Jon, Dany, Tyrion)

Some characters I have trouble classifying: Varys, and the Others. I am still not sure what the hell game Varys is playing, and are the Others REALLY evil, or do they just want their land back from these damn hot-blooded fiends?

[Olenna]

Let's not forget Biter.

I give Ramsay the gold medal for evil, not Gregor, because not only does he like killing and torturing people, but he likes psychologically corrupting people, turning them evil. Look at what he did to Theon. Oh, and he has that habit of marrying highborn ladies by force for their lands, consummating the marriage before witnesses, and subsequently murdering the bride. He's more ambitious and more creatively evil than Gregor.

But, was Gregor the one who mutilated Vargo Hoat piece by piece and turned him into an auto-cannibal? That's pretty good, even if it is totally derivative of Hannibal Lecter.

People seem to be leaving out Euron. What was that story about killing the warlock and making the other warlocks eat the guy's corpse? And sleeping with his brother's wife. And (probably) killing his father.

[brideonfire]

Olenna, I thought about Biter when I put Rorge in. However, he's kind of on par with an animal, isn't he? He's so feral he's not even human anymore, and even though he does despicable things, only humans can be judged good or evil.

[Olenna]

Fair enough.

[bodhi]

People seem to be leaving out Euron. What was that story about killing the warlock and making the other warlocks eat the guy's corpse? And sleeping with his brother's wife. And (probably) killing his father.

Leave Euron out of it, he had a very hard youth. Damphair got all the girls and was always invited to parties while Vic was loved by mom & dad was an alcoholic. On top of that he had a sight problem for which he was relentlessly scorned at raiding school. In mean with a backgound like that he is well adjusted and the occasional flare of anger can be forgiven. He tried his best to be loved, first with Damphair directly and then he tried to become part of Vics family. It isn't really his fault that they are a bunch of fanatics who don't understand the meaning of love and sharing.

That his dad slipped after one of his too many pub crawling affairs cannot be blamed on Euron either, he was at the time holding a soiree at the second level of his boat. Lots of witnesses that can confirm the quality of his artwork and poetry.

The girls serving naked at his party at the Reach was for their benefit only, it was a very hot day after all.

So he should be in the saints department, next to Brienne and Bran

[pondrthis]

Stannis - I like Stannis and I think without the conversion to the new faith he would have been one of the most moral people in the series. He assisted in the killing of his brother and is constantly looking for people to sacrifice.

Sorry to go back to an old post, but I love discussing Stannis (3rd fave after Davos (1) and Dany (2)).

Stannis is not moral. Unlike Eddard Stark, obsessed with honor, which is part morality, Stannis is obsessed with justice. He's only one step away from Randyll Tarly, who hangs people all day long, and that one step is a lack of sadism. His brothers Robert and Renly would have knighted Davos for saving his people, and probably would have found an honorable place (such as Lord of the Navy/Grand Admiral) for him to serve and taken his sons as squires, like Stannis. They would NOT have cut off his digits (though it's what makes Davos>All).

Yes, he only wants to be king because it is his "lawful right and duty". Yes, he gives a flat-out no to killing Robert's bastard. Moral? I don't think so...

[Olenna]

Sorry to go back to an old post, but I love discussing Stannis (3rd fave after Davos (1) and Dany (2)).

Stannis is not moral. Unlike Eddard Stark, obsessed with honor, which is part morality, Stannis is obsessed with justice.

Yes, he only wants to be king because it is his "lawful right and duty". Yes, he gives a flat-out no to killing Robert's bastard. Moral? I don't think so...

I also love discussing Stannis. Your points are well taken, but shouldn't we give him some credit for temporarily abandoning his own personal ambitions to go north and defeat the wildlings, for the benefit of the realm?

It's also worth pointing out that he didn't consciously try to kill his brother. That was more a case of Mel taking advantage of his subconscious desire for Renly to die. And after all, Renly can be said to have started that conflict, since Stannis was the one with the better claim to the throne. Renly should have supported him.

[pondrthis]

It's also worth pointing out that he didn't consciously try to kill his brother. That was more a case of Mel taking advantage of his subconscious desire for Renly to die. And after all, Renly can be said to have started that conflict, since Stannis was the one with the better claim to the throne. Renly should have supported him.

Good point about "abandoning his personal ambitions". He did, and I feel sorry for him and Mel for believing Stannis to be AAr, who will defeat the others.

I agree that Renly should have supported him. Even if Stannis was not the true, legal heir, which he is, Renly's job would have been to garner support for his brother, the heir of both the Iron Throne and House Baratheon, which sits TWO (count 'em) major castles, with about 1.5 sets of sworn bannermen. They then could have easily won an at-least-temporary support from the North, making it Lannisters vs. All-Except-The-Vale-Iron-Islands-And-Dorne. The Baratheons would have eventually come into conflict with two of the weakest militarily houses (Tully and Stark) and decimated all opposition, returning the North to the king's peace. Balon's second rebellion would end in him being sent to the Wall and Theon peacefully returned to rule (perhaps to the worst). Dorne and the Vale would accept Stannis as their new king, the treasury would have been able to eventually pay its debts, and the War of the Five Kings would have been smoothly won, with a Florent, Tyrell, or Davos as Hand of the King, and the Faith bitching the whole while about the Red God.

[Too Good To Be True]

Poor Biter Well, I do feel a LITTLE sorry for him, he's been aboslutely corrupted by Rorge. I think that Rorge can take some of the evil score for crimes committed by Biter. I mean, if Biter has been trained since a child to fight dogs and bears, had his teeth filed and fed on human flesh, then it's no realy wonder he's a f*cked-up individual.

That said, he does still have a mind of his own and as he is presumably adult, he could part from Rorge or kill him to free himself; even if he is not of sane mind he could probably figure that much out.

[Raff the Sweetling]

I think some people have forgotten the meaning of "EVIL". There are really very few people that are straight up evil in the books. I think you have to take personal pleasure in your crimes to be evil. Gregor (and his lot.), Euron, Rorge, Ramsay, Joffery, maybe even Cersei because they take joy in hurting, killing and such. Or doing it for no reason but for the sake of doing it. Being in a war doesnt make you evil, being selfish doesnt make you evil, or doing what you have to do to survive.