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Your Good and Evil Spectrum


Greyjoy Rebellion

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Personally, I think you guys are giving Theon a really hard time. Sure he did betray the Starks but what were the Starks to Theon? Nothing more than captors, because he was a hostage to make sure that the Greyjoys don't try to revolt a second time. I am pretty sure that in aCoK or in aSoS, Theon states that the Starks were nothing more to him than his captors.

And don't forget, he attacked Winterfell to gain his father's love and respect, something he never had because he was being held hostage. And Theon only kills those kids because his plan had fallen to pieces and he was trying to redeem himself to his men.

I am not calling him a good guy for what he did. I think that he is a lot greyer and more neutral than most allow him to be.

When you consider that Theon killed two innocent boys to make people believe he'd killed Bran and Rickon (which he may very well have killed if he had been able to get his hands on them) I don't think people are giving Theon a 'hard time'. I'm not saying his character has no chance of redemption, but he did some pretty reprehensible things.

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First off, a disclaimer: this list is possibly going to have some people out of order, some people excluded wrongly, and some people placed in glaringly incorrect places. It'd take too long to do everything perfectly. So if you see something you really disagree with, feel free to point it out, but also realize it might have just been a mistake.

Walder Frey: Yes, he killed Robb, everyone's favorite character. But why did he do that? For the good of his family. Robb showed no respect for the Freys, even when their heir, Ser Stevron, died in his service. Walter Frey has managed to take care of every single one of his vast horde of children. They've all been taken care of, all been fed, all found highborn friends, most been given good marriages, those who so chose allowed and given the support necessary to become Maesters or Septons, et cetera. It's really remarkable, and really good.

My only major objection to your spectrum is Walder Frey's seeming extremely positive position.

Walder Frey was one of the masterminds behind the Red Wedding. Killing your guests after offering them no harm comes as pretty evil for me.

In his first encounter with Catelyn, he referred to his sons in numeric quantities in AGoT: [(To Catelyn): That son of yours? I’ll match you son for son, and I’ll still have eighteen when yours are all dead.] and then again when compared to Tywin (19 1/2 to his).

That may not be enough to qualify him as an evil parent, or to define his of care his own brood, but this is what he told Catelyn in ASoS (Spoiler for A Storm of Swords):

when she was about to slit Jinglebell Frey's Throat: “A son for a son, heh,” he repeated. “But that’s a grandson . . . and he never was much use.”

Which I guess shows Lord Frey will only look after his kin for as long as they can be beneficial.

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An interesting thread. Everyone seems to take a different view on things.

Why is Jaime evil? Besides the Bran push what has he done that is truly evil?

Why is Ned good? His actions/stupidity led to the deaths of many people.

I'm not saying Jaime is good and Ned is evil, it's just a thought. I would say that I don't think Theon should be anywhere near the most evil list. How anyone can put him above Cersei, Gregor or Joffrey is beyond me.

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In his first encounter with Catelyn, he referred to his sons in numeric quantities in AGoT: [(To Catelyn): That son of yours? I’ll match you son for son, and I’ll still have eighteen when yours are all dead.] and then again when compared to Tywin (19 1/2 to his).

yeah, and he sits there and lets Catelyn slit his grandson's throat, because he's 'only a grandson.' He doesn't love his family.

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My only major objection to your spectrum is Walder Frey's seeming extremely positive position.

Walder Frey was one of the masterminds behind the Red Wedding. Killing your guests after offering them no harm comes as pretty evil for me.

In his first encounter with Catelyn, he referred to his sons in numeric quantities in AGoT: [(To Catelyn): That son of yours? I’ll match you son for son, and I’ll still have eighteen when yours are all dead.] and then again when compared to Tywin (19 1/2 to his).

That may not be enough to qualify him as an evil parent, or to define his of care his own brood, but this is what he told Catelyn in ASoS (Spoiler for A Storm of Swords):

when she was about to slit Jinglebell Frey's Throat: “A son for a son, heh,” he repeated. “But that’s a grandson . . . and he never was much use.”

Which I guess shows Lord Frey will only look after his kin for as long as they can be beneficial.

I guess I just interpret his character differently. I remember the lines about Jinglebell quite well, but attribute them to an attitude against the mentally handicapped (nearly universal in this setting), not a lack of care for his offspring. I also take the lines about his fecundity as signs of how proud he is. At my family reunions, I've often seen my relatives brag about their children by quantifying them, such as saying, "my son makes x amount of money a year!" its not that they really view their children as statistics, they're just using numbers to express their pride. That's what I think Walter Frey is doing. He's proud of how big his family is, and he expresses that in numbers, because listing all of their names would take way too long.

However, its really that middle section of the list that made me feel like slapping on a disclaimer. For the evil side, I think its all a pretty easy ranking of how often, how frivolously, and to what degree do these characters engage in the crimes of rape, torture, and murder. On the good side, you can really just compare how rarely their willing to compromise their virtues, the good things they've done, et cetera. Obviously being willing to ignore your self-preservation instinct to do good is better than being willing to do evil in the name of the law / your religion. Its much more difficult to compare someone like Sansa, who is close to being morally spotless despite doing almost nothing good, and Walder Frey, who I think followed one virtue (loyalty to family) very impressively, but did engage in some seriously dirty business. I can't say for certain if he should be placed just below Areo Hotah, or just above Samwell Tarly. Certainly though, He's better than Renly (remember Cersei's description of what happens in a sack), and worse than Robb (who was always honest in his dealings, but went to war for his family's honor).

Somewhere in that range is also where a bunch of the characters I excluded from my list also belong. Arianne Martell was trying to expose Dorne to a futile war, force Myrcella to serve as a figurehead for the army trying to kill her mother, and was foully manipulative with that Kingsguard whose name I forgot. However, she's doing all of this to avenge her uncle and depose an evil ruler, while the commoners seem to support her cause. How does that really compare to Arya, who kills fairly innocent men (the Bolton guardsman) for survival, slays Dareon because she thinks its right, and assassinates a businessman because the closest thing she has to a parent ordered her. Personally, I'd say Arianne is more "GOOD" than Arya, but it's napkins to hand sanitizer.

(that was intended to be parallel to "apples and oranges" but harder to compare)

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The RW wasn't just Robb and Cat dying though. How many good men died that night? They hadn't wronged the Frey family's honour, yet Walder Frey didn't care about them dying. He is pure evil in my eyes. Caring about your own family doesn't change that fact.

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I guess I just interpret his character differently. I remember the lines about Jinglebell quite well, but attribute them to an attitude against the mentally handicapped (nearly universal in this setting), not a lack of care for his offspring. I also take the lines about his fecundity as signs of how proud he is. At my family reunions, I've often seen my relatives brag about their children by quantifying them, such as saying, "my son makes x amount of money a year!" its not that they really view their children as statistics, they're just using numbers to express their pride. That's what I think Walter Frey is doing. He's proud of how big his family is, and he expresses that in numbers, because listing all of their names would take way too long.

No.. he's saying, 'go ahead and slit my useless retarded grandson's throat, I don't care about him.'

As for 'family loyalty,' it's very simple. He just wants to pop out as many babies as possible and marry them off to more powerful houses so he can strengthen his alliances and gain more power.

Not to mention that he is generally nasty to all of them. When Cat is trying to treat with him in GoT, his sons are embarrassed by his behavior .. they try to temper his horrible manners but be basically tells them to stfu.. If there's anything I've missed to show that he genuinely cares about his family, loves them, has their best interests at heart, etc. I'd love to see it.

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I see Tommen at the top of most of the good-lists. I'm not sure he belongs there. He's definitely innocent and good-natured, but I'm not sure about actually being more "good" than characters like Eddard Stark or Jon Snow. I say that simply because he hasn't really faced any moral dilemmas yet, nor does he seem to even understand what it means to make those kind of choices. When the time comes and he's forced to choose, will he be strong enough do what he feels is right, or will he simply listen to whoever has most influence on him (Cersei, Margarery, Mace, etc)? Even if he is good-natured if Tommen lacks fortitude then he slides more into the neutral category.

That said...

Ramsay Bolton is by far the most evil character in the series. It is litearlly impossible for an ordinary, sane reader to know what's going on inside his mind. Even the most sadistic, brutal villains of the series (IE, Gregor Clegane, Vargo Hoat) don't make a huge habit of things like wantonly raping of innocent girls and flaying people alive. Of course, I do realize that a number of other characters have committed similar acts - What strikes me with Ramsay is that he not only regularly commits them without regard for law or popularity, he openly takes pleasure in them.

Definitely have to agree. He shows a level of sadism that eclipses every other character. I think Roose might actually come close deep down, but he's long since learned to show restraint so that he doesn't appear to be a complete monster to everyone. Gregor Clegane is horribly brutal, but comes off as a beast lashing out at everything. The Bloody Mummers are near bad as Gregor but you can almost understand that mentality from a pack of sellswords. Ramsay is spineless. He's more than willing to pretend to be sniveling and helpless then plunge a knife in your back when you pity him out of disgust. He has the cunning evil of Roose, Tywin and Walder Frey combined with the feral savageness of Gregor, Rorge and Biter. He belongs at the top of the evil list more than any other person...except maybe for Patchface. Patchface is the DEVIL.

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:wideeyed:

The Vestibule: the Opportunists

Ser Barristan Selmy, the Tyrells

Circle 1: Virtuous Pagans

Not applicable

Circle 2: The lustful

Tyrion Lannister, Lancel Lannister, Lysa Tully

Circle 3: The gluttonous

Strong Belwas

Circle 4: Hoarders & Wasters

Renly Baratheon

Circle 5: The Wrathfull

-Arya Stark, (un)Cathleyn

Circle 6: The Heretics

Qyburn, Archmaester Marwyn

Circle 7: The Violent

Violent against self, Violent Against God, Violent against neighbors

-Gregor Cleagane , Amory Loarch, Bloody Mummers, Victarion Greyjoy, Euron Greyjoy, Balon Greyjoy & assorted Iron Islanders, Joffrey Baratheon, Viserys Targaryen

Circe 8: The Fraudulent

Hypocrties, Thieves, Falsifiers, Sowers of Discord, Simoniacs, Flatterers, Deceivers, Fortune Tellers, Panderers & Seducers

-Stannis Baratheon, Petyr Baelish, Maggy the Frog, Cersei, Mellisandre, Shea, Tywin Lannister, Ser Jorah Mormont, Arianne Martel, Bronn, Varys, Janos Slynt, the Kettleblacks

Circle 9: The Treacherous

Treacherous to their masters, treacherous to their guests, treachorus to their country, treacherous to their kin

-The Freys, The Boltons, Theon Greyjoy, Jaimie Lannister

Love the idea! Yet, the vestibule is for slothful, they don't follow a banner because they are vile, not opportunists :)

I agree with your list, though I would take out Jaime Lannister, I'd divide Cersei between the 8th and the second circle (I know you can't, but come ooooon! XD) and Tywin in the circle of hoarders and wasters.

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There're a lot of heinous dudes and dudettes in this series, but Ramsey Snow ("Bolton") and Qyburn top my list for their sadistic torturing of people (although, I'm sure no one cried when Ser Gregor was taken below to the Keep's black cells...).

I do like how GRRM allows for redemption for some of his seemingly despicable characters (e.g. Jamie). Still reading ADwD, but perhaps 'Reek' will rise stronger and harder...and perhaps better, too! (in a moral sense)

Love, hate, or love-to-hate/hate-to-love, virtually to a character, I am awed by the detail and humanity of the players (great or small) in this series. It's truly a superb drama GRRM has written and writes, and I'm enjoying :)

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Maybe I mised it but how come there is no Craster on the lists?

He is not my no1 but does hold high position right after

Cersey-she is just so...not one god or even deasent caracteristic

Ramsay Snow/Bolton -monster

Waldar Fray-Red Weding

Gregor-would get along well with Bolton

Grayjoys(most all of them)-Cruel,religius freaks,whos only complaint is that bad man wont let them be free to rob,rape and kill practicly eweryone,and compared to theyr familly relations Clagenys are loveng people who send eachother cristmas cards

Melisandre-she burns live people and would not minde to burn a childe

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Maybe I mised it but how come there is no Craster on the lists?

I put Craster under lawful evil.. marries/rapes his daughters and sacrifices all his sons to the others. But he is a man of faith and very devout to whatever twisted religion he serves, so he is guided by those principles, hence the lawful.

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Love the idea! Yet, the vestibule is for slothful, they don't follow a banner because they are vile, not opportunists :)

I agree with your list, though I would take out Jaime Lannister, I'd divide Cersei between the 8th and the second circle (I know you can't, but come ooooon! XD) and Tywin in the circle of hoarders and wasters.

No, the vestibule is not for the slothful; it's for those who couldn't commit to being virtuous or sinful (the neutral angels among them). So I'd put Lysa Arryn and the whole of the Vale there. :)

As for the slothful, they're in the 5th circle with the wrathful. They are sunk under the muck while the wrathful fight above.

Strongboar, I just have to say, YOU DA MAN.

Circle 4: Hoarders & Wasters

Renly Baratheon

Don't forget King Robert. He should definitely hang out here.

Circle 5: The Wrathfull

-Arya Stark, (un)Cathleyn

Sandor would also probably be spending some time among the wrathful.

Circle 7: The Violent

Violent against self, Violent Against God, Violent against neighbors

-Gregor Cleagane , Amory Loarch, Bloody Mummers, Victarion Greyjoy, Euron Greyjoy, Balon Greyjoy & assorted Iron Islanders, Joffrey Baratheon, Viserys Targaryen

Add Stannis for violence against God. (burning the 7)

Circle 9: The Treacherous

Treacherous to their masters, treacherous to their guests, treachorus to their country, treacherous to their kin

-The Freys, The Boltons, Theon Greyjoy, Jaimie Lannister

Add Rickard Karstark. Much as it makes me sad. :(

And, uh, technically,

Wyman Manderly would end up here as well. But that would be so wrong!!!

Cersei should stay in the 8th circle; I think that Dante's sinners get punished according to their worst sins. Life in the second circle is a cakewalk compared to the 8th. I also agree that Tywin should be in here somewhere but I'd put him in:

Circe 8: The Fraudulent

Hypocrties, Thieves, Falsifiers, Sowers of Discord, Simoniacs, Flatterers, Deceivers, Fortune Tellers, Panderers & Seducers

-Stannis Baratheon, Petyr Baelish, Maggy the Frog, Cersei, Mellisandre, Shea, Tywin Lannister, Ser Jorah Mormont, Arianne Martel, Bronn, Varys, Janos Slynt, the Kettleblacks

He's a sower of discord and one might also say that he's a panderer for procuring the Tyrion/Sansa marriage. Definitely a hypocrite for his hatred of Tyrion's whore-mongering while he was getting a little Shae action on the side.

A serious nerd project would involve mapping the ASOIAF dramatis personae against all three parts of the divine comedy. Dante has much more interesting moral categories than D&D. Plus, the Purgatorio could account for those redemptive arcs!

Though I would guess that there would only be one or two people who would end up in Paradiso.

One of them would of course be Davos -- no, wait, he cheated on his wife.

Ok, Brienne. Nah, she's gotta do penance for killin people.

Sam? Nope, banged Gilly.

Uh, Hodor, maybe? And Tommen.

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I see Tommen at the top of most of the good-lists. I'm not sure he belongs there. [...] I say that simply because he hasn't really faced any moral dilemmas yet, nor does he seem to even understand what it means to make those kind of choices.

Give Tommen a Kitty and see what he does. Give Joffrey the same Kitty. Write down results.

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I guess I just interpret his character differently. I remember the lines about Jinglebell quite well, but attribute them to an attitude against the mentally handicapped (nearly universal in this setting), not a lack of care for his offspring.

If caring for your offspring is a standard, Cersei should fare much better in the spectrum. This is one (if not, the only) redeeming quality in Cersei Lannister.

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