Tom O'Sevens at the end of AFFC

[Aerys]

Wow, I haven't posted or been on in ages, but Ipop on for a wee visit and what should happen? My topic is being discussed(hurray!) and for the first couple of pages its all good! But now its discussing legality of oaths and someone is talking of wanting to see some sort of necrophiliac action in the next book...

Ok well Il just take it back to the start. Most people have answered the same as i was thinking, that Tom isn't there so that to help Stoneheart take over Riverrun for the winter. But he is there to pass on information to Stoneheart - ( I don't know how though, I hope he doesn't use some sort of cheesy smoke signals on a hill type thing, but more of a leave messages up a nearby tree when out travelling and providing entratainment for some court people) They're too small a force, not enough power etc etc. Ok but what if they were kind of waiting for say, I dunno, Dany to swoop down on her dragons and then Tom manages to secure Riverrun for Dany(after tipping off Stonheart), as Dany will help kill the Freys. So UnCat will be on her side. Is it possible that UnCat is playing a waiting game?

And just incase anyone wants to know, I think that since Cat died, I would say that any oaths she asked people to swear to her, have become void and no longer exist. She no longer has the same soul as last time, but rather a cancerous plagued cloned one.

[Ned Sand]

. . . in this series because, of course, there is no right answer. It's all about perspective

Say not that everyone is a little bit right; rather every character is a whole lot wrong.

Off I go, singing:

Everyone's a little bit racist

Today.

So, everyone's a little bit racist

Okay!

Ethinic jokes might be uncouth,

But you laugh because

They're based on truth.

Don't take them as

Personal attacks.

Everyone enjoys them -

So relax!

[Prince of the North]

Say not that everyone is a little bit right; rather every character is a whole lot wrong.

Hmm...but in the case of Brienne and Lady Stoneheart, Brienne is not wrong

Off I go, singing:

Everyone's a little bit racist

Today.

So, everyone's a little bit racist

Okay!

Ethinic jokes might be uncouth,

But you laugh because

They're based on truth.

Don't take them as

Personal attacks.

Everyone enjoys them -

So relax!

Yes, but...who's "truth"?

[A wilding]

Thanks for the responses to my post. A quick summary response to the comments:

All the evidence we have is that having died and being resurrected does not alter your rights at all. Wherever this comes up in the books, everything points to their rights still existing, nothing points the other way.

There is nothing anywhere in the books to even hint that a lord cannot order a follower to kill someone who happens to have saved that follower's life in the past.

While those supporting whoever is on the Iron Throne might like to claim that anyone fighting them loses all their rights, including those to fealty, we see everywhere that those who hold faith, even to an usurper or villain, are more highly regarded than those who don't.

(And sorry about the thread hijack.)

[Ned Sand]

Thanks for the responses to my post. . . . (And sorry about the thread hijack.)

I do hope that everyone has been enjoying themselves. And ditto re the thread hijack.

All the evidence we have is that having died and being resurrected does not alter your rights at all. Wherever this comes up in the books, everything points to their rights still existing, nothing points the other way.

That's a pretty sweeping assertion. We should make a list of that evidence to be sure:

1. The-artist-formerly-known-as-Beric continued to act as if he had Beric's previous rights.
   
2. The BwB continued to follow unBeric.
   
3. Stoneheart continues to act as if she has Catelyn's previous rights.
   
4. The BwB continues to follow Stoneheart.
   
5. The wights break all their oaths and loyalties, attacking their former friends.
   
6. The Watch slays all wights on sight.
   
7. Drowned and resuscitated Iron Men continue to assert their former rights.
   
8. Other Iron Islanders agree that drowned Iron Men have rights, and extra honor to boot.
   
9. The Clegane lands are now held by ???
   
10. The Kings and Lords that the undead have met have ruled that ???
    

The undead's opinions have to be discounted, right? They're hardly objective. Besides, we're debating whether the living should acknowledge the rights of the undead. That suggests that 1, 3, and 5 deserve no weight.

Those drowned Iron Men aren't undead (they breath, breed, and die like the living), so one can argue that 7 and 8 deserve no weight. But, the Iron Islanders think those men have died, so I'd say that 8 weighs heavily in favor of your point.

While we've never seen a wight demand its rights from the Watch or offer to honor its oaths, number 6 suggests that the Watch might view all undead as evil and assign them no rights. That's some evidence against your point.

I think #9 will be an interesting piece of evidence. Ser Gregor was the Lannister's man. Thus, the Lannisters are not prejudiced against him or his line. What will they do with his lands/honors now that he's dead? If they continue to say that FrankenGregor is the current Clegane, we'll know that they think the undead have rights. Otherwise, they'll reassign the small lands they gave to Clegane to some other man. (GRRM probably won't address this since the Clegane lands are tiny; too bad Ser Gregor didn't have a trueborn heir to make GRRM write about it.) Or, if they make FrankenGregor a kingsguard knight, we'll know that they think the undead have rights.

I'm guessing that 2 and 4 were what you were primarily thinking of. True enough, the BwB does honor its undead leaders' rights. That weighs fairly heavily in favor of your point. On the other hand, those undead leaders are scary and the war is scary and the BwB may be at a loss for what to do if they stop following their undead leaders. Further, most of the lords of Westeros would likely describe the BwB's loyalties as 'confused' at best and some would use terms like 'treasonous' and 'irreligious'. Some of the BwB might not disagree.

When some one says 'Westerosi law', I tend to think of that as either (1) the opinion of the king or (2) the consensus of all unbiased Lords and Septons. (This is since the rest of the inhabitants more or less do what King and Lord and Septon tell them.) The thing with unCat and unBeric is that they haven't been introduced to anyone constituting authority who could judge them. (We won't count Ser Armory and Ser Gregor as being authority, since they fought unBeric for being an enemy, not because he was undead.) Would Randyll Tarley or Stannis or Tommen or Dany judge unBeric and unCat to be people or order them rekilled? In my view, the 'evidence' as to whether the undead have rights remains equivocal until we see how the rulers of Westeros treat them.

Still, the Iron Islanders are a strong point in favor of the undead having rights under Westerosi law. And, the reactions of the BwB tend to agree.

(Edited to add kingsguard point.)

[the silent speaker]

Cosidering that Iron Islands 'drowning' can technically involve having a hip flask of seawater poured over their head, I think the Iron Islanders view such drowning as only symbolic death, not actual lands-go-to-the-heirs death.

[Black Wizard]

And no one actually dies, they just revived!

[Ned Sand]

Considering that Iron Islands 'drowning' can technically involve having a hip flask of seawater poured over their head, I think the Iron Islanders view such drowning as only symbolic death, not actual lands-go-to-the-heirs death.

It can be that simple -- like baptism. However, when Damphair does the full monty on some one - administering the kiss of life - that sounds like drowning + CPR. Not sure if the heart stops beating, but it sounds to me like breathing does stop.

Either way, it sets the stage on the Iron Islands for the notion that coming back from the (maybe symbolic, maybe real) dead is a good thing. Exact opposite of the Watch, who probably consider coming back from the dead to be certain evil.

[Ivy Snow]

I'm shocked about Tommen... first time I see it and it's sounds connected with AFfC Tommen-Cersei interaction. And she thinks her babies are going to die before her. If Tommen kills her, not only the valonquar part is going to fail.

Well I know this is sick.. but if Cersie + Jamie = Tommen ... Tommen would be Son/ brother... so she is in a way Cersie's younger brother..