WoW - continued

[Slurktan]

Nah, currently armory shows the set I call "ShieldSlamLOL". It needs improvement, though. I need to get on the Netherwing quests and pick up the two block value items there. Also the cloak and trinket from badges. To be honest, I use it for some 5-man tanking; with a good healer it's quite sufficient even though I'm crittable. Certainly it's appropriate for doing things like normal mode Underbog.

Felt tired as hell by the time I got home last night and only logged in long enough to tell the Gruul people I wasn't playing.

Kalbear hit arenas right on the head. As long as you show up, you will eventually get gear. You don't need as many people, you don't need as large a chunk of time (how long do 10 5v5 matches take? With 2v2 we spent about an hour once, mostly waiting in queues), though you may need similar total time. Sure, if you win, you'll get stuff faster, potentially quite a lot faster, but there is a guaranteed return for an hour or two a week, regardless of effort, which I can't say of raiding.

In terms of Kara loot I have... the belt, pocketwatch, chess boots, T4 gloves, tank bracers, and I think that's it. Chess has never dropped a King's Defender. Maiden dropped the neck once, the paladin offtank got it. Same with Curator's pants. We only took down Nightbane once yet, and he didn't drop the chest. Prince we haven't tried yet. (I have at least three dps items nobody else wanted, for when I pretend to be fury.) I looked on wowhead not too long ago. In every case I looked, tanking gear was one of the rarest drops from the boss. Attumen, Maiden, Curator, Chess, Nightbane. I didn't look at Moroes, or bother with Netherspite, Opera, or Prince, though.

Spoken as one who apparently doesn't have much luck in raids. However I seem to in that I've made two Kara runs, in it I've got the bracers, belt, Tier 4 gloves, King's Defender, Gilded Thorium Cloak. Thats more gear then I've got in three months of arenaing. So yes to me, raiding is a far easier way of getting equipment than Arena. Also added in to that fact is that raiding takes a considerable amount of less skill to do. Make a few macros and you are gold unless you are the tank and even then it isn't very hard relatively. Yes you can get all the arena stuff if you lose for five to six months. Good for you, you basically admit you suck at the game. I tend to have more pride then that for good or worse.

[Not another Stark]

Spoken as one who apparently doesn't have much luck in raids. However I seem to in that I've made two Kara runs, in it I've got the bracers, belt, Tier 4 gloves, King's Defender, Gilded Thorium Cloak. Thats more gear then I've got in three months of arenaing. So yes to me, raiding is a far easier way of getting equipment than Arena. Also added in to that fact is that raiding takes a considerable amount of less skill to do. Make a few macros and you are gold unless you are the tank and even then it isn't very hard relatively. Yes you can get all the arena stuff if you lose for five to six months. Good for you, you basically admit you suck at the game. I tend to have more pride then that for good or worse.

This is one of the biggest pile of utter bullshit I've read outside WOW official forums

[Zadok]

Raiding is "harder" only in that it's alot tougher to browbeat 24 morons into paying attention and knowing what to do then it is to find 4 people and have a moderately successful arena team. It's simply a numbers game. PvE is not "difficult" as the encounters are static and once you read someone else's strat you basically win. Arenas really aren't any better as they're glorified rock-paper-scissors matches unless there is a huge gulf of skill between the two teams.

WoW is fun when the stuff is new but with Blizzard being so slow about content updates it really does get old quite fast. Especially if you're a player who enjoys PvP since it's apparent at this point that it's nothing more then an afterthought and all the PvPers and casuals are merely subsidizing huge content patches for raiders that most that play the game will never see, yet Blizzard will spend countless hours working on while ignoring the other facets of the game.

[RaceBannon42]

Spoken as one who apparently doesn't have much luck in raids. However I seem to in that I've made two Kara runs, in it I've got the bracers, belt, Tier 4 gloves, King's Defender, Gilded Thorium Cloak. Thats more gear then I've got in three months of arenaing. So yes to me, raiding is a far easier way of getting equipment than Arena. Also added in to that fact is that raiding takes a considerable amount of less skill to do. Make a few macros and you are gold unless you are the tank and even then it isn't very hard relatively. Yes you can get all the arena stuff if you lose for five to six months. Good for you, you basically admit you suck at the game. I tend to have more pride then that for good or worse.

LOL. I admit, I suck at Arena... Sucking at Arena is not sucking at WoW. If you like PvP then good for you, but the game is about PvE, whether its questing, or instancing or raiding. I'm not spending 100G a week to resepc to a PvP build. I'll go and do my best to take out my opponents, and take my points and free epics. I'd rather down Hydross the unstable than OMGWTFPWNU the mortalstike warrior.

[Stego]

So yes to me, raiding is a far easier way of getting equipment than Arena.

LOL. LAWL!

HAHAHAAHAHAHAAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAH@!

[Stego]

In terms of Kara loot I have... the belt, pocketwatch, chess boots, T4 gloves, tank bracers, and I think that's it. Chess has never dropped a King's Defender.

I'll trade you 10 void crystals that used to be King's Defender for those boots.

[Lyanna Stark]

Spoken as one who apparently doesn't have much luck in raids. However I seem to in that I've made two Kara runs, in it I've got the bracers, belt, Tier 4 gloves, King's Defender, Gilded Thorium Cloak. Thats more gear then I've got in three months of arenaing. So yes to me, raiding is a far easier way of getting equipment than Arena. Also added in to that fact is that raiding takes a considerable amount of less skill to do. Make a few macros and you are gold unless you are the tank and even then it isn't very hard relatively. Yes you can get all the arena stuff if you lose for five to six months. Good for you, you basically admit you suck at the game. I tend to have more pride then that for good or worse.

That's simply not true.

Raiding is a LOT of hard work and focus, especially with progression content.

Maybe it's because I know what it is like to raid lead progression content for a guild, it's really really REALLY hard to coordinate 20 or more people, or for that sake, ten.

Also, "making a few macros and LOL" is so not true if you want to really push your DPS. My maximum burst was sitting on 1100 on MAggie,and you will NOT get that from just "making a macro".

"Unless you are a tank" you dont need any skill? I find your comment insulting.

But grats on getting all kinds of loot in two runs that I did not get in 5 months. I guess that makes you > me at raiding then?

[Darian Frey]

*dons flame retardent underpants and grabs a bucket o 'corn*

[Stego]

Also, "making a few macros and LOL" is so not true if you want to really push your DPS. My maximum burst was sitting on 1100 on MAggie,and you will NOT get that from just "making a macro".

Anyone who understands this game knows that playing a hunter is one of the easiest things in the game. And being a good or great hunter is one of the very hardest.

Lyanna's DPS makes mages cry.

[PhelanArcetus]

I'll trade you 10 void crystals that used to be King's Defender for those boots.

Sorry, I regemmed my old Obsidian Clodstompers for my "pretend to be fury" set. Though I did it cheaply. I've got no good trades.

The point about PvE vs. PvP is that regardless of difficulty, you must succeed in PvE to get a reward. Additionally, it requires more people, and has no guaranteed return. Some people are lucky and the items they want drop and they win them. Other people never see the item they want at all, let alone get it. I get 9 people together with me and spend 4 hours for a chance to get some iLvl 115 itemry. Repeat each week. After I've got a bunch of that I can go with 24 people for a chance at some 128-138. Or, for an hour a week, not putting any effort into winning, I can get guaranteed points towards iLvl 136 items (and shortly higher level will be available).

While I've picked up gear recently, it's been for off-spec, off-role, why-the-hell-not-we're-not-using-any-void-crystals-right-now-anyway sets. I haven't gotten an upgrade to my tanking set in easily a month, if not more, of farming content that could drop that upgrade. While tanking gear doesn't really come from PvP, for that time investment I could probably have one or two items even without winning many matches.

Honestly, the original PvP system was bad, because you needed essentially to play more than the rest of the server did to get your rank 14. The current system, arena and not, says "if you play, regardless of how well you do, you'll eventually get rewards. If you do better you'll get them faster." I could form an arena team, queue up, and play the battles by hitting autorun and tabbing off to look at porn, I'd eventually get a reward. Try that in any PvE encounter, and it won't work.

And of course, I can get, with only 4 other people, items incredibly better than what I could get from even a heroic instance, the highest PvE content available to a 5-man party.

Some people love PvE and hate PvP. Some people love PvP and hate PvE. Other people enjoy both. I know people who you can hardly force into PvPing at all. I've read blogs (Ming, for example) of people who begrudged having to PvE enough to level, let alone have decent starting gear for the beginnings of PvP, or pay for reagent costs. There are people out there who do dailies and respec between a PvP spec and a PvE spec to do both optimally. There are people who pick one spec and make it work for both.

[Lyanna Stark]

Anyone who understands this game knows that playing a hunter is one of the easiest things in the game. And being a good or great hunter is one of the very hardest.

Lyanna's DPS makes mages cry.

Hah

Plus I chain trap without having any talents in improved traps (it even works most of the time!). I wish mages could get 30 sec CD on sheep to know what it feels like. *grins*

Anyway, what I wanted to add earlier was that "skill" in WoW is so oddly defined. Are you "Skilled" cos you happen to have a lock, one of the most overpowered classes in arena right now?Or are you a more skilled healer cos you have a pally, and heal your MS warrior friend? How about a setup of two POM pyro mages? Is that skill? Are you "unskillful" if you have a prot pally in arena? or an MM hunter in 2sv2?

I am not talking about the people sitting on 2k rating. I went in with my PvE gear and two team mates, did a few lol games and ended up aroudn 1500 rating. I consider myself so so at pvp. I have a lot of experience, but often graphics lag, my gear is not ideal and my class is certainly not. Do I pwn? AM I skilled? How do I measure my "skill" against other people?

I consdier somone knowing their class role to be skilled. Someone who sticks it out for me and the team mates when we're in a tight position and who will try their best.

Even if that lands us at the bottom of the arena ladder.

Also, the arena is just a grind, like rep grinding, if you dont care about it taking a long time. I've played so many WSG pugs and lost, and just tried to steel msyelf against how it felt, since it is really just a grind.

[Mack Kilimaro]

In considering the PVP/PVE debate in terms of what Blizzard focuses upon, somebody in my guild made this comment:

Blizzard does not pay for guilds to come to Blizzcon so everybody can watch them defeat Illidan. The big competition events are PVP-related - 3v3 arenas. That's where the action is.

End of guildie's comment, resuming of Mack's thoughts.

Now, surely, some of that is just logistics, paying for 25 people (who are probably all European as like 7 of the top 8 guilds worldwide in terms of PVE progression are European) to fly to the convention just for one boss kill is pretty ludicrious. Paying for 8 3-man teams to come and play in a tournament gets you more value even if it's the same number of people. Everybody loves a competition. There is inherent drama in watching something where one team wins and the rest all lose, and they play each other to find out which is which.

PVP is unscripted, dynamic, never the same two times running. Even if you are playing in arenas and you get the exact same team you just fought, you know something about how they fight and you can adjust your strategy.

You could make the case that battlegrounds are obsolete with the advent of arenas, as for the hardcore PVPer the BGs are no longer where you go to demonstrate your skill. It is there as a farming ground for honor for belt/bracers/boots, and ring/necklace/trinket to go use in arenas. And that has had a detrimental effect on the quality of BG players in general - but nobody really cares because they just want honor and marks to go buy things.

[Not another Stark]

Now, surely, some of that is just logistics, paying for 25 people (who are probably all European as like 7 of the top 8 guilds worldwide in terms of PVE progression are European) to fly to the convention just for one boss kill is pretty ludicrious.

Nihilum raided Black Temple at that Game Convention in Germany a few weeks ago, on Bliz' invitation

[RaceBannon42]

Arena is at least as much about spec and gear as skill. Certainly it takes skill to be good, but you can be a great player, but a prot warrior isnt going to take out a pvp specced lock.

The pvpers complaining about leveling shows the game is based around PvE not PvP. A raider can down illidan without ever getting an HK. The top PvP teams certainly have to quest or instance to get where they are.

[Kalbear]

Blizzard does not pay for guilds to come to Blizzcon so everybody can watch them defeat Illidan. The big competition events are PVP-related - 3v3 arenas. That's where the action is.

That's because, well, who the hell wants to watch a team raid for four hours? Raiding is a shitty spectator sport. By comparison, 95% of the panels were about the next expansion and what it's going to do for the PvE world combined with what the next patches are going to do to fix PvE content. Blizzcon was almost exclusively focused on PvE; PvP got about as much attention as Engineering did.

I don't care whether you like PvE or PvP more, and I'm not wanting to get into the argument about which takes more skill (as if that matters in a hobby). The point remains that it is far easier in terms of time, effort, and commitment to get high-level gear from Arena than it is from raids. Part of it is that you have to browbeat 24 morons to play with you correctly, which is tough - browbeating one moron on the forums is tough, but 24 wow folks? Yikes. Part of it is that raiding takes more time to do. Part of it is that it takes more concentration and planning to do. And yes, part of it is that it takes preparation - it takes time to read someone else's strat and do it.

How much effort does it take to die in arena?

Ro, I'm curious what all you read that bumped up your (already impressive) DPS. That's the next thing that I need to start doing - setting up good macros that speed up things some.

[Relic]

LOL. LAWL!

HAHAHAAHAHAHAAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAH@!

these wow threads are getting more and more obnoxious.

[PhelanArcetus]

Arena is at least as much about spec and gear as skill. Certainly it takes skill to be good, but you can be a great player, but a prot warrior isnt going to take out a pvp specced lock.

The pvpers complaining about leveling shows the game is based around PvE not PvP. A raider can down illidan without ever getting an HK. The top PvP teams certainly have to quest or instance to get where they are.

As far as I'm aware, the only thing a prot warrior takes down is another warrior, a rogue, or some idiot who fireballs himself to death on my shield. That said, while we'd never make it to top ratings, I can put some significant disruption on the enemy with improved shield bash and concussion blow. Disarm is worthless since everyone I tried disarming had immunity. Intercept and Intervene also help, but any top team is not going to be significantly affected by all this. A lesser team, such as my warrior might face, as if we resume arenaing we'll likely remain around 1500 rating, can be hurt by it. But I plan to take my paladin in as soon as I ding 70, even if I have to respec holy.

[Stego]

these wow threads are getting more and more obnoxious.

If you said picking your nose gave you orgasms, I'd laugh too. Wasn't his comment intended to illicit laughter?

ETA: All that aside, can't we leave all of that inane discussion in the locked thread? I certainly didn't bring it up, and won't. It's absurd.

[Relic]

If you said picking your nose gave you orgasms, I'd laugh too. Wasn't his comment intended to illicit laughter?

i dunno man. WoW elitism turns me the fuck off

[Lyanna Stark]

Kal, my DPS was 400 behind Solid's. Now I am just 300 behind him.

I read that replacing your regular attack buttons with macro attack buttons can help with lag and twitchy players (I am a twitcher too). I will email you the stuff I found on it - maybe you can help me figure out the next step.

Using macros can really help if you suffer from lag or latency (I often do hence I use different DPS macros, also because DPSing as a BM hunter gives you a 0.4 sec window to not delay shots and activate KC, I challenge anyone to do that correctly for 9 min manually).

Case in point: Last time I did magtheridon I averaged around 900 DPS, but during that fight I had occasional lagspikes of up to 1400, plus I DCed *and* managed to die as well (combat res yay). My peak DPS was around 1100, despite all these lag issues. Macros in this situation = win. (I use more then one, depending on pet activity).

I don't care if people whinge that it is no-skill. It still won't work well if you mis-time it. I still have to manually time trinkets, BW, haste effects, mana pots, bandages, FDs, hunters mark time outs, pet health and pet positioning. Since hunter's are among the least mana efficient classes atm, getting through any fight longer than 3 min is a challenge in itself, a fight against pot CDs.

Rogues have to take pains to manage their energy. No class is EZmode if you want to really do your best. (Although instancing with my mage was piss easy compared to my hunter, can't say what it is like to raid)