Some Questions About Knight of the Laughing Tree

[Dycedarg]

L being describe has a beautiful Lolita, I don’t see her able to joust (she isn’t a freak like Brienne).

You don't have to be unusually strong to hold a lance, just fit and with a steady arm. Oh, and you're probably thinking of Sansa as the Lolita, what with Littlefinger and Sandor's fixation on her*. Lyanna was said to have a streak of wildness as a child and she was a good rider. I can see her learning how to joust.

* I know Lyanna was supposed to be beautiful but Sansa fits the thematic mold better.

[The Wolf Maid]

I initially thought it was Howland who was KotL, but further reading made me rethink my position.

* I know Lyanna was supposed to be beautiful but Sansa fits the thematic mold better.

I agree. Lyanna was much older than Sansa when this took place (about 15 or so, I think).

[thomaswhigham]

Out of the six or so people who I have loaned the book to, I was the only one to notice R + L = J and only one other noticed the Knight was Lyana and Rhaegar connection. Just because it seems obvious once its laid out doesn't mean it wasn't as hidden as can reasonably be in plain sight. He isn't trying to hide it, he was trying to come up with a way of giving important history without just explaining it outright. He never explains anything outright in the novels really.

That this is lyana is about 99.999% sure. That R + L = J is even closer. Doubters are simply denying the architecture since book one.

[Mezeh]

I’m not so sure. Lyanna probably knew how to fight with sword but what about joisting? And while for sword you need to be quick and not necessary very strong joisting would be much more difficult for girl.

[WildlingGirl]

The first time I read the novel, I could not follow the heraldry very well, and came out of this story thinking that I understood little but that Howland Reed was certainly the Knight of the Laughing Tree. I supposed that the Reed kids kept asking Bran whether he'd heard the story before as this was the reason Howland was so attached to Ned Stark and went with him to fight the Kingsguard knights on the mystery mission where Ned killed Arthur Dayne. Finally, it seemed clear that Howland retreated to Greywatch very sad after Lyanna died, because she had helped him be a knight for one day.

Today I read it again, but so differently. After having finished all four books I could keep up with who was who (except for the knight of skulls and kisses -still wondering). Apart from the enjoyment though, it was very plain to me that Lyanna was the KotLT. Howland had gained the wisdom of the green children but did not choose to ride at any point in the story; he needed her help to get rid of mere squires; and there is no place to practice jousting in the marshes. Howland Reed could not be a knight, but was wacky enough to trust and help Lyanna along with Benjen.

Lyanna was the KotLT, because:

• she would look small in her brothers' (or their squires') spare armor, and could wear only things that showed no heraldic devices;
  
• she knew how to ride and spar, and loved what her brothers did so she surely tried to participate - and Rickard Stark was probably frequently away from Winterfell so she could do it in secret;
  
• the KotLT asked for chastisement of the squires, a thing a woman would request instead of punishment;
  
• she was the unruly, beautiful she-wolf that Rhaegar crowned queen of love and beauty instead of his own wife... a person oblivious of propriety if a wrong had to be righted.
  

I'm sure now that Aerys deduced the mystery knight's identity, saw his son's passion, knew of the storm lord's love and betrothal, and declared her no friend to the Targaryens. Extreme lucidity is very close to madness, after all.

[Ran]

WildlingGirl,

The Knight of Skulls and Kisses would be Ser Richard Lonmouth.

[WildlingGirl]

WildlingGirl,

The Knight of Skulls and Kisses would be Ser Richard Lonmouth.

Thanks so much Ran, only the link took me to the Targaryens - here's House Lonmouth for anyone else who's been wondering

[Stratonice]

And here's the link to a previous discussion on the subject that covers most of the popular options for the identity of the Knight of the Laughing Tree.

For the record, I believe it's Lyanna too.

[Ran]

Erk, added a g. That's what I get when typing between bites of food.

[Jabberwocky]

I am always back and forth with this one. Lyanna or Ned?

Bran knew all the stories about knights. He wanted to be a knight. With Bran's fascination with knights, it's no wonder Jojen was surprised Bran hadn't heard the tale from his father, if Ned was the KOLT. Ned being the KOLT would also explain the close friendship between he and Howland. Then you have "Teach your squires honor". Honor, always associated with Ned throughout the books. I'm not sure that Lyanna with her wild nature would have been satisfied with that.

and then , the KOLT being Lyanna for all the reasons already stated.

Back and forth. I can't decide one way or the other.

[Mind's Agita]

It seems I don't have the same doc. Mine say lance = 4-6m, during Medieval Age. Reading SSM, I see that GRR used historic base for is writing, so I assume this lenght (Where did you see lances descriptions in the books ?).

Peek inside my head.

emotional department : It' Lyanna.

reason department : It can't be.

Since nearly every one in the forum listen to his emotional department, I take the reason side.

[lacuna]

Double post.

[lacuna]

The biggest problem I have with the KotLT being Lyanna is that I have a hard time accepting that a 15 year old girl can affect a convincing "booming voice", even when muffled by a helmet. That being said, Meera told Bran a story, so that part might have been added for dramatic effect or whatnot.

[mormont]

I am always back and forth with this one. Lyanna or Ned?d.

Back and forth. I can't decide one way or the other.

Let me help. Ned isn't small enough to be the KotLT. Case closed.

[Zoë Sumra]

Let me help. Ned isn't small enough to be the KotLT. Case closed.

Benjen would have been. Lyanna was 14 at the time; Benjen was younger, 12-13 at the most, whereas Brandon was 18ish and Eddard 16ish.

[Sarella]

The biggest problem I have with the KotLT being Lyanna is that I have a hard time accepting that a 15 year old girl can affect a convincing "booming voice", even when muffled by a helmet. That being said, Meera told Bran a story, so that part might have been added for dramatic effect or whatnot.

I have heard 15 year old girls speak in booming voices in plays. I think the she-wolf could have pulled it off. Also, Brienne's voice was not recognized as a woman's at Renly's melee.

[Guest Other-in-law]

(Where did you see lances descriptions in the books ?).

The Hedge Knight has tourney lances of 12 feet and war lances of 8 feet.

[Rockroi]

KotLT is rapidly becoming may favorite pet topic.

I have always insisted that Lyanna was the KotLT. I think the result is suggested by the evidence. However the “evidence†is scant and we do not know the whole story. So, I could be wrong. However, when deciding who the KotLT is, remember a few details:

1) It had to be SOMEBODY! What I mean by this is that the KotLT did not just appear- it had to be one of the people who Howland interacted with that day- so, the list of suspects is decidedly small: Lyanna, Ned, Benjen, Brandon, Robert, Rhaegar, one of the KG, and possibly a few others like Ashara Dayne.

2) Why the helmet? There had to be a reason that EVEN AFTER the KotlT’s victory s/he did not show his/her’s face. I have often said that this fact alone eliminates almost every male suspect.

3) Why is this even important? Or rather why does Martin keep coming back to it?

Here are my CRIB NOTES as to why I think its Lyanna. For a more in-depth look, please read my more descriptive points on this in my earlier explanations on the thread linked above:

-The Reed children seem perplexed that Bran does not know the story of the KotLT;

-Lyanna was willful, prideful, honorable, tough, and decent (at least from what we know from tangential characters, including Ned and Arya). She was also a risk taker (Ned) who seems the type who would do an act such as the KotLT;

- Lyanna had no “formal†training on how to fight and that Rickard “refused†to let her train. I want to say that in order for Rickard to “refuse†to let her fight, that would mean at some point, Lyanna ASKED for the training- and we know she is willful enough to ignore her father’s orders. Anyway, in Meera’s story to Bran it specifically states that when Howland was being attacked by the squires Lyanna “….laid into the squires with a tourney sword, scattering them all.†One girl against multiple enemies- probably some “shock value†in her attacks, but she did “scatter them all.†So, she can fight and WITH a sword. So, she has some basic knowledge.

-The rider in the passage is described as slight, in ill-fitting armor. Smaller people make smaller targets in a joust. Finally, the rider does not take off his/her helm indicating he/she did not want to be identified. The slight part leaves, really, only Dayne, Lyanna, and Howland Reed. Ned and Brandon were not slight and would have NO reason to hide their identity;

-This is an “if-after-this-than-therefore-because-of-it†argument BUT (big, big BUT), if Rhaegar has to “fall in love with Lyanna (big, big IF), than he needs an opportunity to actually meet her. The Starks do not go to Court; Rheagar did not go to the North; the Starks do not attend tournies (often). The tourney at Harrenhal seems to be the perfect opportunity. Well, how did they meet? Very little evidence suggests that they ever had an overt opportunity to do so. However, RHEAGAR is sent by Aerys to find the KotLT who “is no friend of mine.†Rheagar is dispatched; he returns CLAIMING he never found the KotLT. Well, what my theory “presupposes is, maybe he didn’t!†(Thank you Owen Wilson and the Royal Tenenbaums) Maybe Rheagar found who he was looking for. I think this is PLAUSIBLE (read: does not mean it happened).

-If you support R+L=J and that R did not RAPE L than it seems HIGHLY PROBABLE that this is the time R+L first fell for one another. They seem to need an opportunity. As I said before, if only there was some way that Lyanna could have disguised herself…hmmm….

-On combat. Tournaments are OVERWHELMING described as unsure, tricky and almost random events. This is NOT to say that skill is not involved; merely to identify that strange things happen (like Selmy being NINE at his first tourney). Selmy, Jaime, the Hound, Ned, Mormont (both of them), and others have opined that tourney fighting is NOTHING like war. To have a woman unhorse three lords seems plausible (but not Probable, I grant you). Again- seems like something that would take a lot of guts.

Breakdown of candidates:

In order to be the KotLT the character would need to be:

-present at Harrenhal;

-Old enough to sit a horse and ride with a lance (eliminates Benjen)

-Be small of build enough that their small stature is noticeable (eliminates Ned and Brandon);

-Someone who would have some reason to hide their identity (re-eliminates the Stark boys, Rahegar, and several others);

-Someone who interacted with Howland Reed (eliminates Ashara Dayne, Robert Baratheon, etc etc etc);

At the END of all this we come BACK to the beginning. There is something STRANGE going on when the Reeds tell Bran the story; Reed children cannot FATHOM why Bran does not KNOW the story already (they ask him twice if he is SURE he does not know the story). If the Reed children are telling Bran a story about Lyanna, this makes sense; it seems out of place that they would expect Bran to know a story about Ashara Dayne a woman he has no connection to at all.

One could argue that the character is Howland Reed. This is plausible, but it does not explain why the Reed kids find it odd that Bran has not heard the story; Reed has never even met Bran so why would it be EXPECTED that he would know a story about him?

All signs (scant as they may be) point away from all other characters and keep coming back to Lyanna Stark.

[Prince of the North]

KotLT is rapidly becoming may favorite pet topic...

...-Lyanna was willful, prideful, honorable, tough, and decent (at least from what we know from tangential characters, including Ned and Arya). She was also a risk taker (Ned) who seems the type who would do an act such as the KotLT;

- Lyanna had no “formal†training on how to fight and that Rickard “refused†to let her train. I want to say that in order for Rickard to “refuse†to let her fight, that would mean at some point, Lyanna ASKED for the training- and we know she is willful enough to ignore her father’s orders. Anyway, in Meera’s story to Bran it specifically states that when Howland was being attacked by the squires Lyanna “….laid into the squires with a tourney sword, scattering them all.†One girl against multiple enemies- probably some “shock value†in her attacks, but she did “scatter them all.†So, she can fight and WITH a sword. So, she has some basic knowledge...

Excellent points, Rockroi! I, too, believe Lyanna was the KotLT and I would just like to add an aside to your comments above. Now, this is just my opinion, of course, but I believe Ned's dealings with Arya were definitely influenced by his experiences with Lyanna.

We know Lyanna was described as having the wild "wolf's blood" that is sometimes evident in the Stark family and Arya is also described this way. I believe Ned allowed Arya to train with Syrio Florel precisely because he felt it would be better to channel, guide, train, etc. Arya's wildness than to let it go unchecked or to try to suppress it as his father had done with Lyanna. I think Ned recognized the danger in this because of the bittersweet, tragic results for his sister.

[QuietColours]

-Old enough to sit a horse and ride with a lance (eliminates Benjen)

-Someone who would have some reason to hide their identity (re-eliminates the Stark boys, Rahegar, and several others);

I don't think these two points really do necessarily eliminate Benjen. I'm having trouble finding anything giving birth years for this generation of Starks, but people have been saying Lyanna was 14 or 15 at the time. I don't think it's unreasonable to assume Benjen was between 10-14 himself (within about 4 years of his older sister--he might be younger), then--definitely old enough to sit a horse and ride with a lance. Tommen, at the age of 8 and very unathletic, already practices with the lance, and Barristan won his first tourney at ten. I doubt Benjen was quite that good, but since he went on to become First Ranger in the Night's Watch, I don't think it's unreasonable to assume he's fairly athletic and probably as a fair bit of natural ability with arms and horses. Of course, if Benjen's much younger then ten I do think he really just wouldn't have stood a chance.

However, he'd still be a 10-14 year old boy who wasn't supposed to be involved in the tourney at all--that would be a pretty good reason to hide his identity. As well as possibly having the wisdom to know that defeating the three champions might not be seen favorably by powerful people. The latter point could apply to his brothers and Rhaegar as well. Although I'm not sure the thought would occur to Brandon.

Despite all this, I don't see Benjen really having the motivation or impulsivity to do this. I love the idea that this was how Rhaegar met Lyanna, and Lyanna seems to meet all the qualifications to be the Knight of the Laughing Tree. I can definitly imagine her sneaking around and getting training or copying the boys when Lord Rickard wasn't around. I can also imagine Brandon encouraging her to no end--not sure why, it just fits my view of him.