Darkness Posted October 7, 2007 Share Posted October 7, 2007 Anyway near the end it was hinted that the Citadel has been killing the Dragon's? Anyway notice anything in any of the other books which might also hint to this? [Edited by Ran: Though we're out of the spoiler period, we might avoid spoilerish info placed in titles.] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Other-in-law Posted October 8, 2007 Share Posted October 8, 2007 There are some other hints. We get the idea that living dragons are connected to the existence of magic in the world in a few places (the Sworn Sword, I think, and Wisdom Hallyne of the Pyromancers definitely) and the maesters we meet tend to be extremely hostile to the possibility of magic; Luwin and especially Cressen. A theory of mine is that Grandmaester Pycelle may have sabotaged the Summerhall experiment/attempt, we know that he served Aegon V at the end of his reign and he would probably have been at the scene for the birth of Prince Rhaegar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJDonegal Posted October 8, 2007 Share Posted October 8, 2007 Look for anything that alludes to the Dragons being linked to magic in the world. Couple that with the evidence that the Maesters detest magic and it becomes apparent that they are likely behind any conspiracy going around that brought about the demise of the Dragons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Greguh Posted October 8, 2007 Share Posted October 8, 2007 One example that comes off the top of my head as to evidence between dragons & magic: I believe that the chief pyromancer that Tyrion contacts about preparing wildfire in preparation for the Blackwater mentions something magical in the procedure to create it. Later, he manages to exceed Tyrion's production demands. Part of that was their finding the cache that Aerys left beneath Baelor's Sept, but I believe the pyromancer also alludes to the possibility of dragons leading to the increased efficiency of the process. That one's pretty thin, but there may be more substantial connections. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darkness Posted October 8, 2007 Author Share Posted October 8, 2007 The whole pyromancer talking that they made for Wildfire and he asked if Dragon's were born. I am guessing Dragon do in some way affect Fire Magic in the world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheFacelessMan Posted October 8, 2007 Share Posted October 8, 2007 I don't think the Citadel is responsible for the extinction of the dragons in westeros...more likely I think the dragons became extinct as the Targaryens became less fit to rule, and more inbred and insane. I'm sure the citadel wasn't complaining, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atheas Posted October 9, 2007 Share Posted October 9, 2007 I'm leaning towards the Citadel having been responsible for the decline and demise of the dragons, and will be so again, if for no other reason than foreshadowing Sam the (Dragon)Slayer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darkness Posted October 9, 2007 Author Share Posted October 9, 2007 Over the year's maybe the Citadel hand in the fact no new Dragons were begin born? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Intercept Posted October 9, 2007 Share Posted October 9, 2007 Where are the hints for this? I must've missed them all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darkness Posted October 9, 2007 Author Share Posted October 9, 2007 Where are the hints for this? I must've missed them all. There was only 1 hint that I know of, and that was near the end Samwell's story that Maester says it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Lord Dragon Posted October 9, 2007 Share Posted October 9, 2007 The whole pyromancer talking that they made for Wildfire and he asked if Dragon's were born. I am guessing Dragon do in some way affect Fire Magic in the world. The pyromancer who was making wildfire for Tyrion, reported that they were able to make far more wild fire, far more quickly than they had anticipated. He told Tyrion that effectively the magic seemed to be stronger and then he asked whether there were any Dragons in the world. That showed a clear connection in the pyromancer's mind that he felt that the presence of dragons in the world would be an explanantion for the greater effectiveness of their magic. There is also evidence and hints at the end of AFFC when Marwyn warns Sam not to talk about Dragons in the Citadel unless he wants to end up dead. The clear implication is that the Maesters are so opposed to Dragons that if someone in their midst is even talking about it they could be killed. I definitely believe that the Maesters had something to do with the temporary extinction of dragons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Greguh Posted October 9, 2007 Share Posted October 9, 2007 The pyromancer who was making wildfire for Tyrion, reported that they were able to make far more wild fire, far more quickly than they had anticipated. He told Tyrion that effectively the magic seemed to be stronger and then he asked whether there were any Dragons in the world. That showed a clear connection in the pyromancer's mind that he felt that the presence of dragons in the world would be an explanantion for the greater effectiveness of their magic. There is also evidence and hints at the end of AFFC when Marwyn warns Sam not to talk about Dragons in the Citadel unless he wants to end up dead. The clear implication is that the Maesters are so opposed to Dragons that if someone in their midst is even talking about it they could be killed. I definitely believe that the Maesters had something to do with the temporary extinction of dragons. Yeah. I looked for a connection at one point between a maester and whatever happened at Summerhall, but haven't found anything yet. If maesters have been involved in keeping dragons extinct, as Marwyn claims, the incident at Summerhall (some as-yet-undetermined disaster likely stemming from someone trying to hatch dragon eggs) could have potentially turned disastrous due to manipulation from a maester or maesters. Oh, and another potential link between dragons and magic, is the fact that the glass candle is now burning in the Citadel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darkness Posted October 9, 2007 Author Share Posted October 9, 2007 I just remembered another link for Magic and Dragons. When Danearys is at that town, far off the desert world, after her dragons were born, and some people doing "Magic" with fire can do more than they could before and that old woman says "It is because of the Dragons" I also want to know how the Dragon's went extinct in the first place? Did the eggs stop hatching? Also needs mention that Dragon are neither male or female. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Intercept Posted October 9, 2007 Share Posted October 9, 2007 I just remembered another link for Magic and Dragons. When Danearys is at that town, far off the desert world, after her dragons were born, and some people doing "Magic" with fire can do more than they could before and that old woman says "It is because of the Dragons" I also want to know how the Dragon's went extinct in the first place? Did the eggs stop hatching? Also needs mention that Dragon are neither male or female. It's assumed it's because the eggs stopped hatching. Many Targaryen kings have tried hatching dragon eggs to no avail. My assumption was that the demise of dragons has something to do with the Doom, and the return of dragons to the world implies that something very big is happening in Valyria. It also coincides nicely with the return of the Others and the wights that Mance Rayder set loose on the world again while digging up graves in search of the Horn of Winter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theodoric Posted October 9, 2007 Share Posted October 9, 2007 It also coincides nicely with the return of the Others and the wights that Mance Rayder set loose on the world again while digging up graves in search of the Horn of Winter. So Mayder dug up graves and released the wights while digging for the Horn of Winter so he could destroy the Wall, go south and escape the wights? The timeline isn't consistent for the grave digging to be anything but superstition. If I was a Maester I would pump the dragons so full of infertility drugs that they would even look at a mate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Thelis Posted October 10, 2007 Share Posted October 10, 2007 There are some other hints. We get the idea that living dragons are connected to the existence of magic in the world in a few places (the Sworn Sword, I think, and Wisdom Hallyne of the Pyromancers definitely) and the maesters we meet tend to be extremely hostile to the possibility of magic; Luwin and especially Cressen. A theory of mine is that Grandmaester Pycelle may have sabotaged the Summerhall experiment/attempt, we know that he served Aegon V at the end of his reign and he would probably have been at the scene for the birth of Prince Rhaegar. Also, don't forget all of the "regular stuff", like the fact that the obsidian candle is now on fire and as you can remember that magician actually climed a fire ladder. Now I don't think that your second point is fully true. Luwin was fine with magic, and so was Aemon. Now Cressen is another story. I feel like the archmaesters are the ones that do not favor magic. I actually love that theory. GRRM kept putting in the fact that Pycelle is very old and I feel like it could be a plausible plot point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Other-in-law Posted October 10, 2007 Share Posted October 10, 2007 Now I don't think that your second point is fully true. Luwin was fine with magic, and so was Aemon. Now Cressen is another story. Luwin acts embittered and disillusioned about magic. He admits that he wanted it to be real in his youth but finally gave up on it (no doubt caving in to the mockery of his teachers and peers at the Citadel). If you read all of the exchanges between him and Bran and Osha, his exasperation is palpable whenever the Children of the Forest come up. He insists that they are extinct, which he is really in no position to know; he has never set foot beyond the Wall, Osha grew up there. He constantly scolds Bran to forget such foolishness. And it's not just the Archmaesters, see Armen the Acolyte in the aFfC prologue. He's quite actively pushing the anti-magic/dragon propaganda of the Citadel party line. It's practically an ideology, and definitely not like any sort of scientific approach where claims are tested. They're dismissed out out of hand and ridiculed into silence if possible. I actually love that theory. GRRM kept putting in the fact that Pycelle is very old and I feel like it could be a plausible plot point. Also, Pycelle's treachery was established by the Sack when he, coincidently, helped bring about the end of the Dragonlords. He could easily have given false council once before. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Thelis Posted October 10, 2007 Share Posted October 10, 2007 Well, when you put it that way it makes much more sense. I don't get the feeling that Luwing hates magic, but he might, as you said, be bitter about it. However, the fact that he dabbled in it as a child is pretty interesting. Do you think he really changed his mind about magic after? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maester Joergensen Posted October 10, 2007 Share Posted October 10, 2007 We see a general flow of magic into the worls, in several places. Like the glasscandles in the citadel burning, The firemage being able to walk the fiery ladder, the warlocks of Quarth regains their powers( remember a man who mocked a warlock for his motheaten clothes and a curse were cast on him making him unable to wear any clothe, ghost tortoises carrying messages between the houses of the warlocks and all that stuff), the pyromancers produce wildfire more effectively, Thoros starts actually seing things in the fires and being able to give the kiss of life, Starks and Targaryens totemnimals come to life and the others appear again. But were the flow of magic back into the world caused by the dragons, or did the return of magic enable the dragon eggs to hatch? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Lord Dragon Posted October 10, 2007 Share Posted October 10, 2007 We see a general flow of magic into the worls, in several places. Like the glasscandles in the citadel burning, The firemage being able to walk the fiery ladder, the warlocks of Quarth regains their powers( remember a man who mocked a warlock for his motheaten clothes and a curse were cast on him making him unable to wear any clothe, ghost tortoises carrying messages between the houses of the warlocks and all that stuff), the pyromancers produce wildfire more effectively, Thoros starts actually seing things in the fires and being able to give the kiss of life, Starks and Targaryens totemnimals come to life and the others appear again. But were the flow of magic back into the world caused by the dragons, or did the return of magic enable the dragon eggs to hatch? The first of all of these otherworldly things to occur, is the return of the Others. They appearewd and every other magical regeneration, strengthening occurred after that. The Others are obviously magical and whatever brought them back after all these years very well might have introduced magic back into the world, enough for the dragon eggs to hatch which in turn has strengthed magic even more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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