So, the Citadel...

[WildlingGirl]

I'd always assumed that the dragons' hatching and subsequent return of magic to the world (especially fire magic) was a response to the emergence of the Others. As in, this is the only way to defeat them whenever they come alive. However, in the past magic had not died at any point - it's this time around that it has, and people have forgotten how it used to be when magic was still available. Except for a few who are generally perceived as malevolent, are feared by the smallfolk and prosecuted by the lords.

It made sense for me to start the story with the Others and continue with the Westerosi wars while bigger and more important things were happening around them. The adult POVs are embroiled in their own lives and games - we see Tywin, Cersei and the ironmen dismissing the notion of live dragons, for example. On the other hand, the Stark children, Sam, Jon and Dany still remember childhood stories and wish they were true, so are more open to the possibility of magic. Euron Crow's eye saw a lot during his travels and is not very adult-like either so he also believes. Melisandre seems to be attributing her success to being around Azor Ahai Reborn aka Stannis but that doesn't necessarily mean anything.

I love the theory that the maesters killed the last Targaryen dragons There's hell to pay once Dany comes over to Oldtown!

[Fenris]

The Doom always facinated me. I read somewhere(ill have to look over), that it was some plaguish-type thing, another that it involved big volcanos, but it seems to be a Big Can of Whoopass that spilled upon Valyria. But why? From gods? Do any of the gods

One thing i wondered is how it looks now? Apparently, the only person's thats seen Valyria anytime in the near past was Euron, and we can't be 100% on that one(though that horn is indeed pretty odd. It's not normal, anyway, and does seem magical. I mean, i suppose it could have runes and some burning stuff and could be lit on fire inside...but why weren't flames shooting out..and why does it burn someone from the INSIDE who blows on it?) Curious. Im sure the Citadel wouldn't be too happy if they saw such a thing. And i also believe Euron may have indeed seen it(he apparently brought a bunch of Valyrian steel daggers back, and the metal isn't exactly common nowadays.) Im sure there are a good handful of others who know a fair amount of Valyria, including Maesters..but right now the rather mad Crow's Eye seems like our main link since we havn't gotten to know a bunch of the Citadel's maesters that we just got introduced to in AFFC in-depth.(but i would also say Melisandre, Quaithe and Thoros, who have visions, also might know more than they let on about the place. Especially Quaithe, who really seems to be in the know about a LOT of stuff that we aren't being told.)

Now, a tangent. The Citadel doesn't seem to like Magic. The Citadel also seems to want to cover it up and is not nice to people who spread things about Magic...but they still give out the Valyrian Steel link to the chain, for those who choose to study it(a know thy enemy type of thing?) I wonder if this is why Maester Luwin was always so...touchy about the magic thing. He just wanted to deny it and deny it and deny it to the point of even seeming assholish about it sometimes, but was it done more out of fear, because he knew firsthand what the Citadel did to those who spread magical knowledge? and WHY don't they like magic? Is it a 'Reason and Knowledge vs. Magic'' argument? Is it because magic would lead to too much power that the Maesters couldn't handle? Do the Maesters want a better grip on the lands and Magic would prevent that? Are the Maesters really decent people and know after Valyria's fall magic can only lead to bad stuff?

Another thing: do dragons need more than one to reproduce? It was straight out said they were genderless in AFFC, so can they just...spawn an egg, or do they need to do some mating ritual with another genderless dragon, or do they lay an egg in some weird magical ritual? The Citadel probably knows. And i also think that the maesters being responsible for the last dragons dying isn't that far off. Hell, Im getting the sinking feeling they have a handful of dragon's eggs somewhere there.

Away from the Citadel for a moment, going to the people having visions...there are a few people who have visions, yes...Bran, Mel, Thoros, Euron(Im guessing Quaithe can too, but its just a guess.) Four very different people. Bran's visions seems to come from his great warg power, and AFTER his injury(and finding the direwolf.) Mel and Thoros apparently through the flames, since they both follow the same god, but Thoros is less...fanatical about it somehow, what with not burning kids and all. Euron...where does he get his visions? It's be speculated he's a warg, but hes also drunk a bunch of Shade of the Evening so it could be through Warlock-type magic, but he's had visions(of flying, like Bran), back when he was a child so i doubt it's that, he might just be a warg. They made him to be a blackheart-pirate-bastard-villian type for sure, but there's more to this fellow i can't help but think, he's alot different than the other Ironborn.

Which leads me to the Citadel again...how much does the Citadel know about people like this? I might have missed something, but is there any maesters that seem to have powers like this? Are the Citadel and Faceless Men in league? The Faceless Men seem to use some sort of magic, too...

arrrg, so many questions, so little time. I should go reread a few things.

[Jakob Lightbringer]

Well, you see, it all has to do with the Moonsingers (perhaps originally from Jogos Nhai), who founded Braavos to protect refugees from Valyria. Many of these refugees are slaves that have worked the mines of Valyria -- particularly those in the Fourteen Fires -- volcanic caves where dragons were originally discovered to have laired.

So these Moonsingers, enemies of Valyria, have some knowledge of the volcanic activity in Valyria and ongoing activity in those dragon lairs.

According to Irri, "Once there were two moons in the sky, but one wandered too close to the sun and cracked from the heat. A thousand-thousand dragons poured forth, and drank the fire of the sun. That is why dragons breathe flame. One day the other moon will kiss the sun too, and then it will crack and the dragons will return."

Now according to Mirri Maz Dur, the moonsingers know birthing songs, and so perhaps they may also know something about the hatching of dragon eggs, as well.

Now Mirri Maz Dur, herself, is a midwife of the Lhazareen, shepherds who worship the Great Shepherd. Who else have we heard of as being great shepherds? The Valyrians who originally discovered and tamed the dragons of the Fourteen Fires, that's who.

Now, just to bring this Six Degrees of Westeros conspiracy theory to full circle... what does Marwyn name the conspiracy of Archmaesters who seek to destroy dragons and rid the world of magic? Grey Sheep

[BrainFireBob]

On the Mance-Ygritte debate.

Since it's very cold far north, one assumes well-buried corpses would be fairly well preserved. Opening the graves willy-nilly to find the Horn could easily lead to letting shades out- by providing the Others with a readily-available source of Wights. That's how I took Ygritte's words- that the Others were preying on the Wildlings, the wildlings sought the Horn- and didn't think to rebury the disturbed corpses and were caught as a result.

[valyrian dragonlord]

Also, Pycelle's treachery was established by the Sack when he, coincidently, helped bring about the end of the Dragonlords. He could easily have given false council once before.

pycelle says his treachery was for lannister in ACOK. tytos wouldn't be one for asking a maester to betray somebody. most likely tywin did, and he was about 10 yrs at the birth of rhaegar. not much of an age for asking a grand maester to betray someone. so he didn't give false council to Targ.

[valyrian dragonlord]

It does seem that the dragons enhance magic by their very existence, though. Which begs for the question whether there are truly some in Asshai and why Targ dragons were the only ones in their part of the world. I mean, the Free Cities and Ghis were all provinces of Valyria at the time - how come that during the Doom there was not a single dragonlord family residing there?

I belive it says somewhere the targs escaped valyria's doom. it is possible the other dragonlords were wiped out.

[Guest Other-in-law]

pycelle says his treachery was for lannister in ACOK. tytos wouldn't be one for asking a maester to betray somebody. most likely tywin did, and he was about 10 yrs at the birth of rhaegar. not much of an age for asking a grand maester to betray someone. so he didn't give false council to Targ.

You missed my point completely. I wasn't suggesting that Pycelle was working for the Lannisters on that occasion, but for the Citadel, who at the very least have a healthy amount of hostility for magic, and have been accused of poisoning the Targaryen dragons. Pycelle preventing their return would be part of the Grey Sheep conspiracy that Marwyn speaks of.

Nothing to do with the Lannisters, and Pycelle's desperate excuses when Shagga's axe was literally at his throat don't prove anything about the extent of his true loyalties.

[Anya, Vengeance Demon]

I just noticed that GRRM has confirmed that the Targaryens were the only dragonriders to survive the Doom. I recall arguing the opposite on this thread, but it looks like Maia was right and I was not.

[Shewoman]

Winter is Coming, I thought the Doom of Valyria was long ago--before the Targaryen dragons started dying.

[marwyn]

Another thing: do dragons need more than one to reproduce? It was straight out said they were genderless in AFFC, so can they just...spawn an egg, or do they need to do some mating ritual with another genderless dragon, or do they lay an egg in some weird magical ritual? The Citadel probably knows. And i also think that the maesters being responsible for the last dragons dying isn't that far off. Hell, Im getting the sinking feeling they have a handful of dragon's eggs somewhere there.

From aFfC (Paperback version, page 647) :

''Dragons are neither male nor female, Barth saw the truth of that, but now one and now the other, as changeable as flame''.

From which I conclude that they do need to mate, but that dragons can fulfill both roles during the mating.

[knightsking]

1) There was one Targ King that hated dragons because one killed his mother. I had always found that suspicious. Especially now that we know there is a poison that can turn any animal against its master.

2) What if the Mage was hinting that the last dragon was poisoned by the citadel. His statement to sam would make more sense if he were talking about the fire breathing dragons not the human kind.

[Lapse]

Also something that nobody mentioned... When the comet first appears, everyone is giving their theories about what the comet means. Old Nan is, of course, the smartest of everyone: "It be dragons, boy"

[Anya, Vengeance Demon]

1) There was one Targ King that hated dragons because one killed his mother. I had always found that suspicious. Especially now that we know there is a poison that can turn any animal against its master.

Aegon III is the son of Queen Rhaenyra, who contested Aegon II for the Iron Throne and was executed for treason. There was no suspicious dragon-related accident there. Rhaenyra was intentionally fed to a dragon.

[Mister Manticore]

I just noticed that GRRM has confirmed that the Targaryens were the only dragonriders to survive the Doom. I recall arguing the opposite on this thread, but it looks like Maia was right and I was not.

Dear Lord in Heaven, it's the End of the World. Somebody on this board admitting they were wrong. And reviving an old thread to do it.

I bow to you sir! I bow to you! :bow:

[back_packn]

I had thought I was wrong once, then I realized I was misstaken.

[Ned Sand]

Before the return of Dragons: . . .

The people on the Isle of Faces do their thing.

That alone might cover Howland Reed's adventure a the Whent Tourney in the year of the false spring. However, we should add:

Jojen dreams green.

[Hodorous]

Doesn't it seem a little out of place for the Citadel to have this generic, broad-based hatred of magic, considering they've coexisted and thrived for thousands of years with the Hightowers in Oldtown.

Now I don't have my books in front of me, but as I understand it House Hightower is an ancient House of the First Men who had the (magical?) foresight to welcome both the Andals & Targaryens. Additionally, the Hightowers are regarded as being a very wise & mystical House ~long associated with visionary, sorcery, & necromancy flavored pursuits. Shouldn't there (at least historically) be more friction between the Hightowers and the Citadel if this anti-magic angle is true? Something seems a little off to me.

Frankly, I see a nice symmetry between the Citadel's custom of 'lighting the obsidian candle' and the Hightower words (We Light the Way). I think it's pretty clear that the Maester's 'light the obsidian candle' custom wasn't always the half-assed metaphor it currently is (or was).

Could this anti-magic platform be fairly recent (post Conquest at least)? Perhaps an intra-Citadel anti-magic sect pulled off a coup d’etat at some point? Where might Varys fit in (considering his admitted feelings on magic)?

[Anya, Vengeance Demon]

Doesn't it seem a little out of place for the Citadel to have this generic, broad-based hatred of magic, considering they've coexisted and thrived for thousands of years with the Hightowers in Oldtown.

We don't know that they _have_ co-existed for thousands of years. I've had this discussion before (perhaps even on this thread, although I'm not up for checking just now), but the text is at best inconclusive on whether the Citadel has been around since before the Doom. Tyrion notes in ACOK that they've replaced the pyromancer's guild almost everywhere in recent centuries, and Sam mentions that the early histories are written by septons, not maesters. If you can find evidence that the Citadel was founded more than four hundred years before the beginning of the series, I'd like to see it, but I don't think it's out there.

[Ran]

The Quill and Tankard is suggested to be _the_ place for acolytes and novices to drink, and it's been around 600 years. Inconclusive, though.

The glass candles were apparently brought to Oldtown "a thousand years" before the Doom, and I always read that to be something the Citadel did, but it's not clear evidence. Could have been the Hightowers.

I've always supposed that the Citadel has existed as an institution for many centuries, but that they played second-fiddle to the pyromancers for much of it because they didn't focus on the showy magical stuff and just kept their noses to the grindstone of learning.

I also don't think we've real evidence that there's a secret conspiracy at the Citadel against magic that would include doing stuff like trying to foil Dany just because of the dragons or whatever. I don't think we should rely on a single person, Marwyn in this case, when it comes to determining whether there is or isn't a conspiracy.

[Anya, Vengeance Demon]

My current line of thinking is that the Hightowers were inspired to found the Citadel after the High Septon moved to King's Landing, as a chance to recapture some of the influence that they would have lost when he left the Starry Sept. Perhaps they even retained much of the Sept's archives, on the theory that the scrolls and older books would be too fragile to move across the continent. The Citadel could have received the glass candles from the Hightowers, who would have been perfectly willing to part with once-magical artifacts that no longer work.

That's pure speculation, though, so obviously, grain of salt.