So, the Citadel...

[Guest Other-in-law]

If the citadel really killed the dragons wouldn't it be impossible to Martin to reveal it? Unless someone like Cersei already knows because she's royal blood. Or Sam learns a deep, dark, secret.

Martin has already introduced the idea through Archmaester Marwyn! It's just a matter of confirming it somehow, and Sam would certainly be an easy way to do so (I fail to understand what Cersei has to do with it, or royal blood either).

"Who do you think killed all the dragons the last time around? Gallant dragonslaers armed with swords?" He spat. "The world the Citadel is building has no place in it for sorcery or prophecy or glass candles, much less for dragons."

[Anya, Vengeance Demon]

If you all will pardon my ignorance, is this the "game" to which Prince Doran refers in an early chapter of AFFC? I must have missed this. Is she studying at the Citadel?

The game, if I had to guess, is that she is dressing as a man (Alleras, in particular) to study at the Citadel.

Hackey Sack:

I don't see that it's clear that the maesters would monopolize magical knowledge. GRRM has mentioned moonsingers, spellsingers, Faceless Men, pyromancers, the Undying, green men, red priests, bloodmages, shadowbinders, &c., all of whom also teach magical knowledge in some form or another even now. The maesters might purport to be the only venue for learning about magic, just as Arizona State may purport to be the only institution of higher learning, and with about as much of a chance at success.

(Also, GRRM does not think that his magic is another form of science.)

[Guest Other-in-law]

(Also, GRRM does not think that his magic is another form of science.)

(Off topic) that's a very interesting interview. I have to say Fevre Dream seemed like a very sci-fi sort of vampire tale; the vampires were a separate race that evolved parallel to humans, and there was no transformation from one to the other, no invisibility or shapeshifting. Also, Joshua York basically used the scientific method to develop a blood substitute.

[AHackeySackOfIceAndFire]

I don't see that it's clear that the maesters would monopolize magical knowledge. GRRM has mentioned moonsingers, spellsingers, Faceless Men, pyromancers, the Undying, green men, red priests, bloodmages, shadowbinders, &c., all of whom also teach magical knowledge in some form or another even now. The maesters might purport to be the only venue for learning about magic, just as Arizona State may purport to be the only institution of higher learning, and with about as much of a chance at success.

(Also, GRRM does not think that his magic is another form of science.)

that IS an interesting interview.

you're right that all those groups do different forms of magic. but they are each sort of "trade schools" of magic, and they don't seek to broaden their base. magic is not monolithic. Meanwhile, the Citadel (not an individual Maester but the Citadel as a whole) would go after everything. Pyromancers are, I think, an example that serves my point. They claimed to be capable of all kinds of magic, but over the years, maesters figured out and debunked everything the pyromancers did, except for wildfire. now maesters have become the masters of healing and such things once considered "magic." and the secret behind wildfire is guarded carefully, because of the constant threat of the Citadel to the viability of the Pyromancer's guild.

the Citadel, as an institution that seeks out knowledge generally, has no criteria, in my opinion, for distinguishing between magic and science.

not sure, but i think in the interview, GRRM was saying that he didn't want people to think that his fantasy world could be explained by RL science, but that doesn't preclude a "scientific" institution within the fantasy from codifying some magic.

[Guest Other-in-law]

Pyromancers are, I think, an example that serves my point. They claimed to be capable of all kinds of magic, but over the years, maesters figured out and debunked everything the pyromancers did, except for wildfire. now maesters have become the masters of healing and such things once considered "magic." and the secret behind wildfire is guarded carefully, because of the constant threat of the Citadel to the viability of the Pyromancer's guild.

Is there any hard evidence that the Citadel figured out and debunked all the Pyromancer's other spells? I read it more as their spells began to lose effectiveness after the Domm, and even more after the dragons went extinct. Then the Citadel was able to expand into the partial vacuum they left.

not sure, but i think in the interview, GRRM was saying that he didn't want people to think that his fantasy world could be explained by RL science, but that doesn't preclude a "scientific" institution within the fantasy from codifying some magic.

I think he's saying the exact opposite:

Harold Shea is always going into these worlds, and there is magic at work, but it’s not mysterious. It is strange to him at first, but when he works out the underlying principles, he can easily become a magician, because he is basically an engineer. That was an amusing and, I think, an original take on it all at the time, in the 1930s and ‘40s, but it’s certainly not my take. I find myself more in sympathy with the way Tolkien handled magic. I think if you’re going to do magic, it loses its magical qualities if it becomes nothing more than an alternate kind of science. It is more effective if it is something profoundly unknowable and wondrous, and something that can take your breath away.

[AHackeySackOfIceAndFire]

That is pretty convincing. I was reading more into the part about planets and such.

It seems GRRM is on your side, but logically it just doesn't make sense to me. It seems like an awful leap to say that the Citadel won't study magic just because it's magic, which by the way just means something they don't understand yet. how did the Citadel get all the knowledge it has up until now if it refuses to study things it doesn't understand?

[Guest Other-in-law]

Well, I kind of agree with you as far as real life is concerned. Supposing we made contact with an alien race which was capable of doing things that seemed utterly impossible to us; invisibility, shapeshifting, whatever. I would take the view that these things, by virtue of now being demonstrably real, are not magic but merely phenomena that have yet to be explained by science.

But that's different from seeking to instill a work of fiction with a particular ambiance, which is what I think GRRM is talking about.

As to the Citadel's discoveries, presumably in their world there is a qualitative difference between magic and normal technology. Maybe magic is very hit or miss, in it's reliability or sometimes just isn't reproducible at all. Like, 'it happened because of the whim of the gods'. Marwyn's quote of Gorghan of Old Ghis about prophecy gives some indication of the fickle nature of the subject.

[Maia]

Nevertheless, it is clear that at least _some_ magic is predictable and reproducible in ASOIAF, at least during the eras when magic in general is "stronger". I.e. making of wildfire, making of Valyrian steel, stuff that the Fire-mage was able to conjure, maybe even some of the warlocks spells.

[Lord Mord]

I love the idea that Pycelle maybe did Summerhall. Do you suppose he intended it to be as bad as it was? Was the Citadel necessarily interested in seeing the Targaryens all dead? I can see where they would have wanted to keep their magic in check, but their sheer existence should not have been particularly threatening to people who are just interested in learning?

I understand they may not be kindly disposed, but is that the same as willful annihilation?

[BrainFireBob]

Like, 'it happened because of the whim of the gods'. Marwyn's quote of Gorghan of Old Ghis about prophecy gives some indication of the fickle nature of the subject.

I always thought that reflected more George's opinion on writing prophicies vs. his preferred "see where it goes" writing style.

[Useless]

The books say blood and fire were the keys to all Targ magic, and I think that includes the taming of dragons. Wild dragons would have had to be capable of breeding and growing stronger without the influence of men (natural selection would presumably be taking place), until the Valaryians somehow bound dragons to them, possibly through the use of the horn Euron mentions. To domesticate the Dragons, the Valaryians would have had to find a way to control something that flies and breathes fire until such a time as the dragons became domesticated completely, and were tamable (much like the transformation from wolves to dogs, if wolves breathed fire and had a taste for men).

The dragons in Westeros were steadily weakened through the years from the days of the Conquerer, until finally dieing out in the days of Aegon III, two generations after the line of Targaryens bottlenecked at Viserys I (I think). Aegon married both his sisters, despite the obvious problems that would result in succession and the way the Westerosi gossip. It would seem that he wanted to ensure there was more than one Valaryian running around. Since Blood (and the books have made it fairly clear that the best kind of blood is king's blood even if they haven't been quite as clear as to what makes a king) and fire are the sources of all Targ magic, it would follow that to birth a strong dragon, a blood sacrifice is necessary (Danny used the blood of two people who could possibly conquer the world). Aegon made sure he had plenty pure Targs (or Valaryians) were running around Westeros. People with pure King's blood, from the line of kings, without any base nonsense in their veins. To birth a Dragon, he knew he'd have to kill someone, and he made sure that he and his heirs would have choices available (and there'd generally be one that would need to be killed, considering how often the Targs go insane). Or at least he thought he did, until the bottleneck.

The domestic dragons can breed and hatch whenever they want, but the pup will always be weaker than the parent. In this way, any of the dragons which go wild (which after all the time as Valaryian pets happened only when there were no people around or they were stolen as pups) can easily be put down if there are any 'proper' dragons around, and if not, the line will die in a few generations, even if the line of Dragons is adopted and nurtured by non-Valaryians. Aegon ensured his heirs would have a monopoly on dragons so long as they remembered the dreadful family secret, and killed a child (or conquered a new kingdom and took it's king) whenever they needed to birth a new dragon.

It doesn't seem like the intervention of the Maester's is necessary, if my hypothesis is true. After the Targs started to bring outsiders into their line, their king's blood would be diluted, and if one, and if a Targ decided not to tell his children of the secrets to a Dragon's birth (or, possibly, if the Maesters are trusted with the secret and forget to tell the Targ when it becomes obvious the dragons are too weak) the dragons would continue in a state of decline.

Or Danny got a couple of really old Dragon eggs, which weren't weakened by centuries of inbreeding.

[thupple]

The books say blood and fire were the keys to all Targ magic, and I think that includes the taming of dragons. Wild dragons would have had to be capable of breeding and growing stronger without the influence of men (natural selection would presumably be taking place), until the Valaryians somehow bound dragons to them, possibly through the use of the horn Euron mentions. To domesticate the Dragons, the Valaryians would have had to find a way to control something that flies and breathes fire until such a time as the dragons became domesticated completely, and were tamable (much like the transformation from wolves to dogs, if wolves breathed fire and had a taste for men).

The dragons in Westeros were steadily weakened through the years from the days of the Conquerer, until finally dieing out in the days of Aegon III, two generations after the line of Targaryens bottlenecked at Viserys I (I think). Aegon married both his sisters, despite the obvious problems that would result in succession and the way the Westerosi gossip. It would seem that he wanted to ensure there was more than one Valaryian running around. Since Blood (and the books have made it fairly clear that the best kind of blood is king's blood even if they haven't been quite as clear as to what makes a king) and fire are the sources of all Targ magic, it would follow that to birth a strong dragon, a blood sacrifice is necessary (Danny used the blood of two people who could possibly conquer the world). Aegon made sure he had plenty pure Targs (or Valaryians) were running around Westeros. People with pure King's blood, from the line of kings, without any base nonsense in their veins. To birth a Dragon, he knew he'd have to kill someone, and he made sure that he and his heirs would have choices available (and there'd generally be one that would need to be killed, considering how often the Targs go insane). Or at least he thought he did, until the bottleneck.

The domestic dragons can breed and hatch whenever they want, but the pup will always be weaker than the parent. In this way, any of the dragons which go wild (which after all the time as Valaryian pets happened only when there were no people around or they were stolen as pups) can easily be put down if there are any 'proper' dragons around, and if not, the line will die in a few generations, even if the line of Dragons is adopted and nurtured by non-Valaryians. Aegon ensured his heirs would have a monopoly on dragons so long as they remembered the dreadful family secret, and killed a child (or conquered a new kingdom and took it's king) whenever they needed to birth a new dragon.

It doesn't seem like the intervention of the Maester's is necessary, if my hypothesis is true. After the Targs started to bring outsiders into their line, their king's blood would be diluted, and if one, and if a Targ decided not to tell his children of the secrets to a Dragon's birth (or, possibly, if the Maesters are trusted with the secret and forget to tell the Targ when it becomes obvious the dragons are too weak) the dragons would continue in a state of decline.

Or Danny got a couple of really old Dragon eggs, which weren't weakened by centuries of inbreeding.

I find this line of thought intriguing. I am getting the impression that the Targ blood is somehow genetically/magically linked to actual dragons, i.e. Targ blood is in a sense really dragon blood. If my hypothesis is right, then any old king's blood would not be nearly as powerful as Targ (or other Valyrian) blood, in fact, king's blood that is not Valyrian may not be magical at all, or at least not in the dragon/Targ sense (i.e. there could be blood magic, of varying kinds, not related to Valyrian magic).

It is said that the birth of Dany's dragons was a miracle, so I don't think we can look at that and think it is some kind of formula for dragon creation..yet there does seem to be some kind of formula or theories about a formula extant, if you figure that is what they were attempting to do at Summerhall. Yet Dany's birthing would fit into my theory about the blood, since one of the ingredients in her fire was the blood of her own child, who would have had dragon blood.

[Guest Other-in-law]

Yet Dany's birthing would fit into my theory about the blood, since one of the ingredients in her fire was the blood of her own child, who would have had dragon blood.

Jorah Mormont quietly disposed of her child. There's absolutely no indication that Rhaego was in that Pyre. The blood that burned was Drogo's, a horse's, and Mirri Maz Duur's. The king's blood came from Drogo.

[thupple]

Jorah Mormont quietly disposed of her child. There's absolutely no indication that Rhaego was in that Pyre. The blood that burned was Drogo's, a horse's, and Mirri Maz Duur's. The king's blood came from Drogo.

Thank you OiL, for refreshing my memory. I guess I was subconsciously thinking about her sacrifice of her child in that blood magic ritual that MMM did to revive Drogo (I think that is what happened - not really sure wtf was going on there), and equating that to Rhaego's blood being in the birthing-dragons fire...which is a bit of a leap. My imagination running away with me!