MMA 2: The Thread of Champions.

[Horus Ex Machina]

I am a bit surprised that the mods chose to lock down a thread that was going strong in the middle of two good discussions but I digress b/c I still have questions that haven't been resolved from the old thread. So starting with this quote:

[

]I think that the Fedor/Couture situation is a big step closer to the end of the promoter lead era for the sport. The sport is going to hit a critical mass at some point when the fighters become bigger than the organisations and the balance of power will shift. UFC needs to grow up and adjust or it will become redundant. DW is a smart cookie but will his ego get in the way off the evolution of the company? We can already see that PPV numbers are becoming more and more affected by who is headlining the card. Another indicator that fighter recognition and therefore power is on the rise.

Look at it this way. Jardine got 8k plus 8k to fight and beat Liddell. Now we all know (those of us with half a brain) that he is on way more money than that. He receives a salary and bonuses as a UFC fighter but he is tied in to his crappy TUF contract for three years. Would you consider $16k a reasonable bonus for a fighter to headline a PPV event? With this sport growing and these numbers becoming more readily available it is not going to be too long before fighters refuse to go on TUF because of the shitty contract up for grabs. Only a handful of fighters have ever gone on a three year streak and tbh if a TUF fighter put one together he would probably be Champion by then and still picking up his crappy TUF salary. It is another indicator that UFC can not expect to continue to treat fighters the way they do.

Look also at fighter's relative worth to organisations. Babalu was a make-weight for his last fight. Less than 1% of watchers tuned in because he was on that card. So UFC can pay him FA because he is making FA money for them. He signs for Elite and suddenly he is news. He can easily headline a card for them and bring in cash for them. Now he can say to Elite that he is making money for them and he can get, let's say 5x the money from Elite than he did from UFC. Same story for Nick Diaz or Frank Shamrock or Brock Lesnar or any number of fighters. They are not worth anything to UFC so it is not worth Zuffa signing them but they are worth money to other promoters.

What does this mean to UFC? I think that they should concentrate on setting up supercards. They should only sign fighters who are Champions or in the Top Ten in the world. They can set themselves up as the real elite organisation and forget this blanket coverage which is diluting their product and filling their roster with low paid mediocrity at the expense of highly paid stars. Make the UFC belt the ultimate goal in the sport. It has been for the past year or so, it is in danger of losing that status in the next year. Which belt is worth more, the one Fedor/Randy/Barnett contests or the one Timmy/Congo/Vera contests? A Filho/Kang/Lawler title scene stands up to the UFC MW division. Let's not even bother with the LW, most of the top talent is not in the UFC. UFC does have the LHW and WW divisions locked down but with their status and spending power is that enough to justify continuing to act like dictators in a free market?

I am gutted that Fedor and Randy are not in the UFC but if it opens up the sport to allow more fights between the top fighters then it is worth it. MMA's biggest danger could soon be the boxing model of too many meaningless 'World Title' belts. The UFC can] step in to avoid that but only if they open their eyes and treat fighters like professionals rather than minions.

Is Randy's contract in dispute? Although I've long thought that Randy and Rampage would be likely candidates as far as sitting champs who would jump ship w/o thinking twice if they thought that the UFC was stifling them, I gather from this post that Randy may realistically be contemplating either leaving or retiring. Granted, he may have to leave if he ever wants to fight Fedor.

I agree about what may happen to DW and Zuffa when the fighters become bigger names than the orgs though.

[Horus Ex Machina]

I also want to reply to a couple of posts on the Human Weapon question:

Yeah, no. No fucking way does the military man win the fight unarmed. With a knife, sure. With a gun at 800 meters, of course. (And so, in real life, yes they win. In a ring, no. Never without that training.

Stego

I thought we were talking about Randy Couture vs Military Guy here in a televised, non-lethal fight? Where did killing potential enter the equation?

And I said Human Weapon was full of shit because it was totally favored towards the hosts instead of the people they fight. If you watch the Karate episode the big guy outweighed his opponent by 20-30 pounds, and he slugged his opponent in the face twice with his fists (Strictly illegal in a Kyokushin Karate fight). But the ref let it slide, and the audience was visibly pissed off.

Then he proudly states at the end "I just fought a national champion black belt to a tie". Yeah, because you were bigger than him AND you cheated.

I didn't address how practical those martial arts are in a life or death situation at all. And if you actually buy into the idea that Human Weapon is talking about how to become a killing machine instead of how to become a professional fighter, you and I are watching completely different shows.

I think I see where we are having a problem. Though I frequently watch Human Weapon, I haven't watched the episode in question, but was rather responding to the original post on the topic:

Don't know if this is quite the right thread, but while we're waiting for the next UFC:

I've been watching that Ultimate Weapon show on The History Channel, where two dudes study a bunch of different fighting styles. Last week's episode was the Marine Corps Martial Arts Program, and the hosts were talking to the guy who was in charge of teaching hand-to-hand combat to all the marines in Camp Pendleton. This guy made the claim that while Randy Couture could probably best him in the Octagon, he had a better chance of killing Couture in a street fight. So whattaya think? Is the pinnacle of sport fighting good enough to take on an elite commando who is "trained to kill?"

[Analu]

I am a bit surprised that the mods chose to lock down a thread that was going strong in the middle of two good discussions but I digress b/c I still have questions that haven't been resolved from the old thread.

I think they locked it because it reached the max limit of posts for a thread. Or something like that.

I've been hearing disturbing rumors about Fedor. Something along the lines of he refused to take a dive against Couture which is what Dana wanted him to do if he signed with UFC. Totally unsubstantiated, but I wouldn't put it past DW.

Did anyone else see the Sportscenter interview with Couture about why he resigned, where afterwards, they showed DW's official statement, talking about how he had to "bitch slap [Couture's] agent"? That's just lame. Can you imagine Goodell or Stern saying "bitch slap" in any of their official statements? Way to go, Dana. Way to represent the UFC and MMA.

Shit is hitting the fan in the UFC and MMA right now. I like it.

[Horus Ex Machina]

I think they locked it because it reached the max limit of posts for a thread. Or something like that.

Maybe it had to do with the time period of the thread, b/c the College football thread is up to 800 posts. However the MMA thread and the MLB thread got shut down at around the same time with about the same # of posts. No big deal, just want to be able to finish up from where we left off there.

I've been hearing disturbing rumors about Fedor. Something along the lines of he refused to take a dive against Couture which is what Dana wanted him to do if he signed with UFC. Totally unsubstantiated, but I wouldn't put it past DW.

Did anyone else see the Sportscenter interview with Couture about why he resigned, where afterwards, they showed DW's official statement, talking about how he had to "bitch slap [Couture's] agent"? That's just lame. Can you imagine Goodell or Stern saying "bitch slap" in any of their official statements? Way to go, Dana. Way to represent the UFC and MMA.

Shit is hitting the fan in the UFC and MMA right now. I like it.

I wouldn't be surprised to hear that both of these stories are right on the money. If the UFC is "protecting" Couture, then it would be in his interests to stay put if he wants to continue to win, but if that's really the case then he could just IFL and let his legacy stand for itself.

I remember the pro-UFC fan backlash when Rampage came out with the stories of the fight fixing that went on in PRIDE and I was shaking my head at the implication that that was the only org that such things took place in. I wouldn't be surprised.

As for DW "bitch-slapping" Randy's agent, it's reasons like this that Tito chooses to negotiate with the Fertittas rather than DW. DW is getting close to the point where the fighters are getting big enough names not to have to take anymore shit. I have a feeling that this is why DW wants to control the coverage of the UFC if it moves to ESPN or HBO. Things like not mentioning the Miletich Camp despite the fact that they have fighters competing there, or not granting press passes to Sherdog who is ESPN's MMA affiliate are not the sort of things that happen in other sports. But if DW wants to control how popular a certain fighter becomes relative to the UFC, then controlling the way that they are covered w/in a respective event can go a long way towards guaranteeing that.

[Analu]

I remember the pro-UFC fan backlash when Rampage came out with the stories of the fight fixing that went on in PRIDE and I was shaking my head at the implication that that was the only org that such things took place in. I wouldn't be surprised.

Yeah, I remember that supposed Rampage-fix, too. That killed me a little inside. Saku already had a fantastic legacy and was the ultimate sportsman. Why did they try to sully it with that? I still fondly remember his wars with the Gracies. In particular, with Renzo. What a fight! And what warriors both of them were/are!

As for DW "bitch-slapping" Randy's agent, it's reasons like this that Tito chooses to negotiate with the Fertittas rather than DW. DW is getting close to the point where the fighters are getting big enough names not to have to take anymore shit. I have a feeling that this is why DW wants to control the coverage of the UFC if it moves to ESPN or HBO. Things like not mentioning the Miletich Camp despite the fact that they have fighters competing there, or not granting press passes to Sherdog who is ESPN's MMA affiliate are not the sort of things that happen in other sports. But if DW wants to control how popular a certain fighter becomes relative to the UFC, then controlling the way that they are covered w/in a respective event can go a long way towards guaranteeing that.

Have nothing to add here. Totally agree

[Horus Ex Machina]

Yeah, I remember that supposed Rampage-fix, too. That killed me a little inside. Saku already had a fantastic legacy and was the ultimate sportsman. Why did they try to sully it with that? I still fondly remember his wars with the Gracies. In particular, with Renzo. What a fight! And what warriors both of them were/are!

I am happy that Rampage only said that the fix was attempted but that he did not go down for Saku in that fight, that he was legitimately beaten. But the fact that he mentions the attempt raises eyebrows on that fight since most think that he should have beaten him. I don't like things that tarnish the legends of this sport like Royce, Bas, Saku, or the Shamrocks. It will be interesting to see if DW, who now owns Pride, will honor the Pride greats with his HoF. The whole MMA needs an official HoF IMO, not just one for UFC fighters.

[Horus Ex Machina]

Now I see what Ser Barry and Makahaboy were talking about. Boy I've been out of it. First the MMA thread closes, and now this:

It's official (I guess). In the wake of the Fedor non-signing by the UFC, Randy Couture has retired from MMA competition as the sitting HW champion.

Questions:

Who competes for the now vacant title?

Will Randy consider coaching an IFL team?

I've long suspected that Randy had a problem with the way business was done in the UFC, considering the little things and hints he's dropped in recent years on issues like not wanting to sign anymore standard UFC sponsorship deals. The Knapp interview was the most candid that he's ever been.

That's now two former UFC legends (along with Pat Miletich) who've expressed displeasure w/ UFC management upon leaving the org. And I love how DW assumes that Randy would definitely beat Fedor, especially since he (twice) was certain that Chuck would take Rampage and then compared the upset to Tyson vs Douglass.

Is he now going to concentrate full-time on building up Xtreme Couture? or re-merge with Team Quest?

[Horus Ex Machina]

Here's the Sherdog article on Couture's resignation. He and Dave Chappelle obviously have a thing for making surprise resignations from South Africa:

Randy Couture (Pictures), the face of the Ultimate Fighting Championship and one of mixed martial arts most revered fighters, notified the UFC via fax from South Africa at 11 o'clock Thursday morning that he has chosen to resign from the UFC, "The Natural" confirmed with Sherdog.com.

"I sent the letter of resignation to the UFC today, resigning not only from my position in the company as a commentator and as an ambassador, but also as the heavyweight champion," Couture said over the phone from South Africa, where he is currently filming a movie.

"The motivation for the decision is two-fold," he continued. "I know Fedor (Emelianenko) just signed with another organization and that's the only real fight that makes sense for me at 44 years old as the heavyweight champion of the UFC. That's the fight I wanted and if that can't happen it doesn't make sense for me to compete with all these other guys. And then obviously that's not going to happen now. And, two, I'm tired of being taken advantage of, played as the nice guy and basically swimming against the current with the management of the UFC. I have a lot of other things going on in my life that I'm doing just fine with. I don't need the problems. I don't feel like I get the respect I deserve from the organization, and that's motivation No. 2 for the letter of resignation that was sent today."

Couture (16-8) is the only fighter in UFC history to hold belts in two weight divisions. The current UFC heavyweight champion, he recaptured the belt in March by coming out of retirement to out-point Tim Sylvia (Pictures). Couture defended the title in August, stopping challenger Gabriel Gonzaga (Pictures) in the third round.

The Sylvia win came after a year away from the sport after Couture suffered the second of two knockouts to then UFC light heavyweight champion Chuck Liddell (Pictures). Couture won the first bout in the trilogy by capturing an interim UFC light heavyweight title in June of 2003, stopping Liddell in the third period.

Couture's ledger in the UFC reads like a who's who. "The Natural" first captured UFC heavyweight gold against Maurice Smith (Pictures) in 1997 before doing it for the third time against Sylvia in 2007.

A day after news broke that Fedor Emelianenko (Pictures), the widely regarded top heavyweight in the sport, had apparently declined to sign with the UFC, Couture submitted his resignation.

"I want that fight and would have waited if the fight was offered to me," Couture said. "Knowing what they offered him, I would have made demands to get paid equally or better than him as the champion. Whether or not those would have been met is another question."

"I'm not surprised at all by Randy's decision," UFC president Dana White said in a statement published on UFC.com. "I talked to Randy several weeks ago and he said that if he couldn't fight Fedor, then he has nothing left to prove in the sport of mixed martial arts."

According to Couture, nine months remain on his current UFC deal. However, White said Couture "is still under contract with me, and I'm ready to promote him" if he chooses to fight again."

"As we all know, Randy retired before," White said. "The landscape in MMA changes every day."

Until he is in a position to fight Emelianenko, said Couture, he will concentrate on acting, franchising Xtreme Couture training facilities, and expanding the Xtreme Couture clothing line.

His success outside the ring is proof of his success inside the Octagon. But Couture said it was a lack of respect by the UFC, in particular its president Dana White, that led him to resigning.

"I think the final straw for me was meeting with Dana and Lorenzo (Fertitta, UFC co-owner) where they claimed I was the No. 2 paid athlete in the organization, which I know is a bold-faced lie," Couture said. Polling other athletes, said Couture, he learned that his compensation -- some $250,000 a fight with pay-per-view bonuses, according to the Couture camp -- was nowhere near what other top UFC fighters were making.

"All us athletes are all pretty tightly intertwined," he said. "You hear what other guys were paid signing bonuses and what other guys were paid on the record and off the record with bonuses. I've heard Chuck's numbers. Tito's numbers. Hughes' numbers. Quinton's numbers. Cro Cop, Wanderlei. I heard what they were offering Fedor, and it's insulting."

Couture's rocky history with the Zuffa-owned UFC began in 2001.

"I think what set us off on the wrong foot was that my management [at the time] wasn't willing to give up ancillary rights across the board with no option for some sort of compensation," said Couture, alluding to a reason cited by Emelianenko's representatives as to why the Russian did not end up with the UFC. "All the other athletes at that time were signing those contracts. That created a lot of animosity and got me pulled out of the Carmen Electra campaigns to promote the athletes and the sport and the video game and all that stuff."

Beyond the money, both Couture and his wife Kim stressed Thursday's resignation from the UFC was about respect. It's a move "The Natural" acknowledged could have far-reaching effects.

"Certainly there's personal motivation for resigning and taking a stand for myself," he said. "If it sets a precedence that down the road requires athletes to be treated better then that's the icing on the cake."

[Intercept]

I also want to reply to a couple of posts on the Human Weapon question:

I think I see where we are having a problem. Though I frequently watch Human Weapon, I haven't watched the episode in question, but was rather responding to the original post on the topic:

Glad that's cleared up.

And I'll miss Randy. He was both a terrific fighter and a man of character.

[Oorag]

I don't recall if I said this in the previous thread, but the UFC has basically lost both of its posterboys: Liddell has been humiliated by two loses and Couture has comepletely turned his back on the organization. That has to be a huge blow. Combine that with the fact that many of their new heavy hitters from Pride are floundering and the general impression that this latest TUF won't be unearthing any potential stars, and this is looking to me like a very dark time for the UFC.

[Horus Ex Machina]

Maybe Couture's statements will finally teach DW that he can't keep thumbing his nose at the talent. But given his statements in the wake of this it seems unlikely. Good for Randy for being the first of MMA fighters to show a spine and stand up to DW. Tito talks a good game but he hasn't backed it up like Randy has just now by leaving fights on the table and calling it quits. I've seen a major star jumping ship for some time now and I've always thought that it might be either Couture or Rampage given some of the statements that I'd heard from them both in the last year.

The fact that Randy was unhappy seems to have caught alot of fans by surprise but I saw it when rumors said that he was unwilling to sign deals with UFC sponsors. He also befriended many of the Pride stars (Rampage, Wandy) coming to the UFC who I'm sure were candid with Randy on the deals they had signed upon arriving. DW can insist that Randy was getting his info from those "nasty internet web sites" till the cows come home but come on! Randy was talking business with Wandy; we know that he was advising Wandy on future business ventures in the States as far as opening his own gym.

DW wants to act like this is just about Randy not having anyone to fight anymore but he can't hide from this issue anymore. First Pat Miletich, now Randy. Who's word holds more credibility, DW's or Couture's? Poor treatment of fighters is only going to last so long before fighters say enough, and Randy felt that with Fedor off the table this was a good time to make a stand and he also said that if this sets a precedent then he hopes that he made a difference.

[Horus Ex Machina]

I'm throwing out my predictions on UFC 77 starting with what should have been a televised bout between Yushin Okami and Jason MacDonald. I pick Okami by 3rd round stoppage.

Kalib Starnes will defeat Belcher by dec.

Stephan Bonnar will defeat Schafer by dec.

I take Brandon Vera over Tim Sylvia by dec.

And for my favorite fighter who will be forced into "hostile territory" to defend his middleweight crown, I'm taking t"The Spider" over Franklin in a second round tko. I just hope I'm right b/c I would love for Silva to hold the title for a couple of years.

Oh yes, btw, I am picking three televised decisions just like "Stacked" Silva's fight will be the only stoppage of the night.

Word is that Chuck vs. Wandy will be anounced this weekend.

[Analu]

And for my favorite fighter who will be forced into "hostile territory" to defend his middleweight crown, I'm taking t"The Spider" over Franklin in a second round tko. I just hope I'm right b/c I would love for Silva to hold the title for a couple of years.

I just watched the weigh-ins, and the Spider's got one nasty staredown. Should be a great fight. I respect both fighters, but I think Franklin's outclassed here. Silva's just that good and their first match has to be in Franklin's head a little. I could easily see Silva being the champ for years to come. He's just hitting his prime.

Vera looked good and not much smaller than Timmy, which surprised me. Think Vera'll take this one.

I'll go with Belcher since I don't like Starnes very much, and will go with Bonnar and JMac in the other fights. This might be the first UFC card in a while that I might not get to watch live, but we'll see. I'd at least like to get to see the two co-main events.

[Horus Ex Machina]

Caught the weigh-in just now on Fox Sports. I was surprised at the respect that Franklin got the crowd to show Silva. Classy move on Franklin's part. Silva got many more cheers than Sylvia. Maybe the crowd got the names confused. Or maybe we'd all just as soon see someone put Sylvia away for good. It's amazing how bad that guy's body always looks. Was it me or was he sucking in his stomach?

And how tall is Vera? If Tim Sylvia's 6'8" it didn't show there.

[Logan]

I remember the pro-UFC fan backlash when Rampage came out with the stories of the fight fixing that went on in PRIDE and I was shaking my head at the implication that that was the only org that such things took place in. I wouldn't be surprised.

Its hard to believe that there was much fixing going on in the UFC, at least in the main event fights. When I started paying attention to MMA again, White had his stable of "unbeatable" champions that he was going to build off: Arlovski was the scary foreigner, Liddell was the machine that they were searching the world for a challenger that could at least give him a fight, Franklin was the teacher turned powerhouse and Hughes was the all-American frat boy. They all fell in quick order, only Hughes to the designated heir of the division. Considering the flops that Cro Cop and Shogun turned out to be, if there was fixing going on someone wasn't following the script.

I hope White gets taken down a peg or two. He had a good deal of success in getting the sport recognition but now his ego is getting out of control. Its funny how he keeps going on about how the fighters can't be dumb, drunk street-brawlers anymore, yet every season of TUF promotes the hell out of the drunken brawls or fighter breakdowns that inevitably happen.

I'm picking Vera and Silva to win because along with GSP and BJ Penn they're the fighters I most like watching, but I gotta say both of their win celebrations make me wince. Of course with GSP its his 'word up to god, thumbs up to my homies' entry that I can't stand.

[Oorag]

It's amazing how bad that guy's body always looks. Was it me or was he sucking in his stomach?

And how tall is Vera? If Tim Sylvia's 6'8" it didn't show there.

Sylvia always looks like he's sucking in a gut. That's just the weird shape of his body. And Vera is 6'2, which is the same height as Couture. Sylvia had an 11.5" reach advantage over Couture, but Randy might have short arms for all I know.

[childe roland]

i can see your skull

[childe roland]

very disappointed in vera he needs to go to 205

[Horus Ex Machina]

very disappointed in vera he needs to go to 205

So was I, it seemed like he didn't have a plan to counteract Sylvia's size adv. He was just walking into those standing clinches for the entire night. 205 seems like a good home for him. Consider the fact that Rampage, as big and as strong as he is, has said time and again that he won't venture into "Sasquatch territory"

With that said, I was 3-2 on my picks tonight including my all-time MMA hero Anderson Silva in a rout.

War Silva!

[VikingBeard]

I read on Yahoo! that the UFC signed Brock Lesnar