What is the Alchemist up to?

[Rhom]

Well, again, getting back to what I said before... why does the Alchemist need that key? If it's to kill somebody that we've barely seen mention of in the Citadel, isn't that kind of lame?

We have just as long to go in the series as we've already seen. What makes you think no one of significance could yet be introduced? People still consider Ned to be a main character and he had screen-time in only the first book. Theon was a minor character (at best) in one book and a throw away view point in a second; yet people still get riled up about what will happen to him. Ditto to Davos. With three massive books yet to come (there seems to be too much story left for any of them to be any smaller than Storm), it stands to reason that the Alchemist's target could very much be a person yet to be revealed.

[Errant Bard]

I think you're misunderstanding the Kindly Old Man's position. As far as I can tell, he's saying that death is a good thing in and of itself. It's not a contingent good; it's an absolute good. And thus death on a mass scale would presumably be even better than death dealt piece-meal.

I'm not sure, he's saying that death is the end of suffering, but he's also saying Arya should create life, that everyo newborn has an angel of death assigned to his side. The doors of the temple themselves are black and white, and their vhalar Morghulis expression is paired with vhalar doaheris. Unless the KoM was a fanatic, it would seem to me that the core belief of the FM is that there is no death without life first.

That is why I believe them benevolent, to a certain extent. Everything we saw about them revolves around the principle of balance. There isn't a single gratuitous murder, even in the case of Dareon, arguably. Jaqen argued strongly against -refused actually- killing more than the three he owed to Arya, which, if the FM were an apocalypse sect, he should have been more than happy to do.

I could still see them side with Others, but that would stem from a sort of AD&D true neutral druidic belief in righting the balance of magic/nature/whatever, but never from a wish to wipe out humanity. I guess them feel more like referee than players in the game, to me. (And ultimately that's how I imagine Arya fading away from the story, not dead, but separated, not in the game)

Edit: About the lameness of introducing new characters, we will have a Quentyn Martell PoV in ADWD, as well as a good number of lesser story-wise important characters, like descendants of famous exiles. In AFFC, among others, we had Marwyn, Sarella and Leo Tyrell who look like they are going to be kinda important too. I don't think it's too late to introduce yet others players, they don't need to be as developped as the main PoVs after all.

[Guest Other-in-law]

The second part of the FM 'motto' is "All men must serve". What's that all about? It seems like a pretty major part of their ideology that hasn't been explained much beyond sending Arya off to sell seafood.

If they did play a major role in bringing about the Doom, could it be because the Valyrians were not serving, but only being served by their slaves? The city of Braavos itself has a pretty clear anti-slavery position (forcing Pentos to abolish slavery for one thing), do the FM in particular hold to that strongly?

As for the Alchemist's mission, I have a hard time even starting to speculate without knowing more about the FM ideology. Are they even opposed to magic? If so, why...they seem to use magic themselves (Jaqen's face-changing glamour at Harrenhal could hardly be anything else).

The Maesters serve. That should be fine with the FM. But they also seem to be clearly trying to eradicate magic, to which I'm not sure what the reaction would be.

[Dinsdale!]

The second part of the FM 'motto' is "All men must serve". What's that all about? It seems like a pretty major part of their ideology that hasn't been explained much beyond sending Arya off to sell seafood.

<snip>

I took it to mean All Men Must Serve the Many-Faced God, and that moreover they shall serve him, willingly or not. That appears to be a key point of their religion. That they view themselves as servants is not particularly remarkable - priests in every religion tend to speak of themselves as servants. The aescetism of the FM is also characteristic of the Priest hoods of most religions, and certainly that of many of the religions in ASOIAF.

There is also the strange relation that all Braavosi have with the FM, which feels like there is some ancient city-wide bargain between the cult and the people.

[Blackstone]

Faceless men are murderers and assasins. There is no denying this. The accusation is that they are also genocidal. Targeted murders -- even for hire -- is not genocide.

Genocide is saying -- let's kill all the Valyrians. The Faceless Men "brought the gift" to the Valyrian slave masters that were holding them and their fellow slaves in bondage. I call this self defense. Moreover, they didn't kill all the Valyrians then and don't seem to be trying to stamp them out now.

[Ahimsa]

Then why did they offer the gift to the masters of Valyria, who were not (so far as we know) suffering greatly? Why would they work as assassins? (Do they specialize in killing people with terminal cancer or something?) It clearly can't be just about ending suffering.

I can't buy that the Faceless Men are out for extermination of the race. That is an oversimplification that goes against what we've seen from them. As far as Valyria, perhaps they felt that in bringing it's doom they actually enabled life for everyone else?

I have a couple of questions for those who have reread the books more recently than me:

1). Is there any chance that the doom was in Valayria triggered the subsequent loss in magic?

2). What was Jacquen looking for in King's Landing? Did he actually get thrown into prison or was that part of his plan? Was he actually there to guide Arya to safety, and send her on her way? If he suceeded in whatever he intended, then his presence in the citadel is hard to guess. If he did not complete his task, however, he likely would be in the Citadel for the same reason he was in KL. Whether or not that reason had to do with Arya is purely speculative, but certainly possible.

[Anya, Vengeance Demon]

Faceless men are murderers and assasins. There is no denying this. The accusation is that they are also genocidal. Targeted murders -- even for hire -- is not genocide.

Sure. Certainly that would apply to most murderers and assassins. I don't think, say, Carlos the Jackal wants to bring about the extinction of humanity.

But the argument is slightly different for the Faceless Men. They say that death is a gift that they give, a good thing in and of itself. Perhaps this is a bunch of hooey to justify charging a lot of money to kill people; certainly I can't say for sure that it isn't. But if their murders and assassinations are justified by this philosophy, then it is absurd to think that they are talking about death purely in cases where somebody is, by our standards, profoundly suffering. The Kindly Old Man talks about death being a gift for Valyrian slaves and masters alike. So it seems to me that he is presenting himself pro-death in all cases.

[ogbebaba]

Ok I just don't understand why people think Sam has the horn of winter I remember the horn Jon gave same being described as old dirty and broken, not a magnificent powerful magical item capable of taking down the wall.

Can someone please explain the basis for this theory?

[Guest Other-in-law]

Can someone please explain the basis for this theory?

Sure. India Jones and the Last Crusade.

[black cat]

Thanks for bringing up those questions Lothor. I've also been wondering why Jaqen was in KL and what he did to get thrown into a cell. Was that part of his plan? Did he know someone would eventually come looking for men to send to the Wall? Hmmm

[SFDanny]

My read on the Faceless Men and their religious point of view would put them at odds with the Others. The Others animate corpses and defy death, while the Faceless Men look to death as a gift ending people's struggles in life. They seem to be about as far away from each other philosophically as can be. My guess is, therefore, they aren't working with each other or for the same ends.

With regards what a Faceless Man is doing in the Citadel, I lean to the belief he is there to find information. Not that this information is his goal, but rather he needs it to find an intended target. For instance, if one is paid to kill a possible Targaryen heir, then the vaults of the Citadel might be an important place to look for information on a secret heir. If there is a report of a maester who was present at a birth of a child - say some seventeen years ago - and that event took place in some secret location - say, an isolated and hidden tower near the Dornish mountains - and said maester was one of the few people in the world who could testify to such a birth - then in might make sense for a Faceless Man to look for a way to search the archives of the Citadel for the maester's identity, and the hidden identity of such a child.

I know at this point there isn't really enough on which to make much of a guess, but, anyway, there is my wild speculation.

[Anya, Vengeance Demon]

Ok I just don't understand why people think Sam has the horn of winter I remember the horn Jon gave same being described as old dirty and broken, not a magnificent powerful magical item capable of taking down the wall.

Can someone please explain the basis for this theory?

The horn Jon found was found with a large number of obsidian arrowheads, daggers, etc., in what appears to have been a gift to the Night's Watch. (It was in a Night's Watch cloak, it had been recently buried, and Ghost went straight to it.) We know that the obsidian is useful to fight Others; if the horn turned out to be purely useless, why would the gift-giver (whomever they might have been) include it?

[Smiley Knight]

Faceless men are murderers and assasins. There is no denying this. The accusation is that they are also genocidal. Targeted murders -- even for hire -- is not genocide.

Genocide is saying -- let's kill all the Valyrians. The Faceless Men "brought the gift" to the Valyrian slave masters that were holding them and their fellow slaves in bondage. I call this self defense. Moreover, they didn't kill all the Valyrians then and don't seem to be trying to stamp them out now.

It's been a while since I've read the books, but I remember distinctly that the Faceless Men initially killed their fellow slaves, which disturbed Arya. I don't remember them killing the masters as well. But that they began by bringing release to the slaves also seems to go against the suggestion they look at the gift of death as an unmitigated good, to be given to anyone, anywhere, anytime.

[Erik of Hazelfield]

This thread reminds me of a Terry Pratchett book - Hogfather - where some sect tries to get rid of the Discworld's version of Santa Claus. They do this by hiring the most skilled assassin in the guild, Teatime. The Hogfather cannot die by natural means, so Teatime has to make all children stop believing in him.

I didn't particularly like the book, but the concept is quite interesting. Perhaps Jaqen isn't out to kill a human, but a magical creature such as an Other... Or a dragon.

[Anya, Vengeance Demon]

With regards what a Faceless Man is doing in the Citadel, I lean to the belief he is there to find information. Not that this information is his goal, but rather he needs it to find an intended target. For instance, if one is paid to kill a possible Targaryen heir, then the vaults of the Citadel might be an important place to look for information on a secret heir. If there is a report of a maester who was present at a birth of a child - say some seventeen years ago - and that event took place in some secret location - say, an isolated and hidden tower near the Dornish mountains - and said maester was one of the few people in the world who could testify to such a birth - then in might make sense for a Faceless Man to look for a way to search the archives of the Citadel for the maester's identity, and the hidden identity of such a child.

Possibly. But if a Faceless Man has enough pieces of the puzzle to get that far, wouldn't he essentially know that Jon is Rhaegar's son already?

[Blackstone]

It's been a while since I've read the books, but I remember distinctly that the Faceless Men initially killed their fellow slaves, which disturbed Arya. I don't remember them killing the masters as well. But that they began by bringing release to the slaves also seems to go against the suggestion they look at the gift of death as an unmitigated good, to be given to anyone, anywhere, anytime.

The first Faceless Man gave the gift to some of the slaves so as to end their suffering. Death is a release from suffering and pain and want.

The Kindly Man more than implies that the Faceless Men brought the gift to their Valyrian masters, when Arya exclaims that they shouldn't have killed other slaves, but the masters instead.

While death come to all men, and while it is a gift, they no where express the idea that it is their intention to murder everyone, or any particuar group of people, regardless of whether they want the gift.

I think it's more accurate to say that they see Death as a right of passage and a way to escape the suffering and pain of the mortal world. This is hardly a unique view in religion or litterature. If I recall Tolkein described death as the One's gift to Men -- that they weren't bound to the world and could go beyond.

[Anya, Vengeance Demon]

While death come to all men, and while it is a gift, they no where express the idea that it is their intention to murder everyone, or any particuar group of people, regardless of whether they want the gift.

Well, no. But they are assassins and murderers, and thus are in the business of giving the gift to people whether or not those people want it. Their philosophy either covers this (in which case death is a good thing for all people, no matter what, full stop), or it is a bunch of nonsense that they spout as a cover for more self-interested ends. There's no third possibility here.

[A wilding]

they are assassins and murderers, and thus are in the business of giving the gift to people whether or not those people want it.

That's true, but they are apparently only giving the gift to people who have an enemy who wants them dead enough to be willing to pay a price that seriously hurts. That is not quite "all people".

[Anya, Vengeance Demon]

That's true, but they are apparently only giving the gift to people who have an enemy who wants them dead enough to be willing to pay a price that seriously hurts. That is not quite "all people".

Right. But if the Faceless Men actually believe their own rhetoric, then death is a gift regardless of (a) a person's relative suffering and ( a person's conscious desire for said gift. And if _that's_ true, why doesn't the logic of the Faceless Men lead to total human extinction?

[Errant Bard]

Their philosophy either covers this (in which case death is a good thing for all people, no matter what, full stop), or it is a bunch of nonsense that they spout as a cover for more self-interested ends. There's no third possibility here.

But there is, they can have both selfless/mystical reasons and conditions to meet to give the gift, there is a middle ground between pacifism and genocid here. As I said before when talking about the Indian thugs, a cult of death that does not want to exterminate humanity is possible. So it's not definitely "no matter what", any way you look at it.

Also, we talk about it like the Faceless Men are a monolithic entity, but it may be like, say, the catholic church in history, mix both faith and self interests. (like "turn the other cheek" and the spanish inquisition). Who says taking money for hits is part of the original doctrine? Hell, who paid to have that Valyrian slave assassinated?

This being said, we don't have much information to base our theories on, regarding the Faceless credo, so I'm waiting eagerly to see what happens in the next Arya chapters, but before that, I'm staying convinced that these guys are the most pro-humanity, even though they don't necessarily take side among human factions,