Arya Corpse-kicker

[Jakben Imbel]

"No proper knight" != "No true knight."

A "proper" knight is a landed and prosperous knight, a "true" knight is a chivalrous one.

Have a very nice day.

-fgalkin

I think it's pretty much understood that Sansa is a self-absorbed harlot for most of the series, until she comes up against true adversity and redeems herself...

I look forward to hearing about her redeeming qualities in ADWD.

[Lady Blackfish]

How is Sansa a harlot?

[Jakben Imbel]

How is Sansa a harlot?

Excuse my French.

Would you care to provide a more appropriate euphemism? She certainly handles adversity in a very different way than her sister. What can be said of this? A hard work philosophy versus a discriminatory one?

[Lady Blackfish]

Would you care to provide a more appropriate euphemism? She certainly handles adversity in a very different way than her sister. What can be said of this? A hard work philosophy versus a discriminatory one?

Hrmm, I'm not sure I get the the point of the bold part. Arya doesn't seem to me to have any grand notions about the value of hard work. Sansa does pay attention to people's stations &etc so yes in that way she is more discriminatory on a rubric of social class. In matters of adversity, Sansa is more passive and that turns into passive resistance, which ends up being better for her situation as Arya would've likely gotten herself killed in the same place (and vice versa).

As for a euphemism, I just really didn't see how "harlot" has anything to do with Sansa, I suppose.

I also think they handle adversity different than their brothers, but that never seems to come up.

[KatieG]

As for Tyrion and Shae, don't forget that shae really didn't have much choice but to testify. As a high lady Taena could chose to volunteer her 'testiomy' or not, but shae really had no choice. It was say what cersei/tywin told her to say or be whipped/raped/killed. That's the real tragedy in Tyrion's killing her. she really never had any choice or power. She oculd have left tyrion, but that would have meant returning to life as a poor whore.

Shae had to testify, sure. She even had to make stuff up about conversations between Tyrion and Sansa to put blame on them, because if she didn't, no doubt Cersei would have killed her. But her telling the whole court that Tyrion made her call him her "Giant of Lannister" when is was her own idea was nothing but hurtful, spiteful betrayal. As if lying to convict him weren't enough, she also lied to humiliate him. I don't blame Tyrion one little bit for being hurt enough by that to kill her. She started out a poor whore and Tyrion made her more than that (at least, a richer whore), but it was never enough for her. She was always pushing for more. I can't blame her for bailing out of a sinking ship, but there was no need for her to piss on it on the way down.

[Jakben Imbel]

As for a euphemism, I just really didn't see how "harlot" has anything to do with Sansa, I suppose.

I also think they handle adversity different than their brothers, but that never seems to come up.

I've just always been disappoint by the way Sansa handles things, whilst Arya has always been a much more honest and down to earth character, despite her aggressive flaws.

I agree in that Arya and Sansa are portrayed to handle adversity different than their brothers, and I wish it would come up more often, as the only Women in Power role-reversal expressed thus far has been the straight forward "Look, Cersei/Danys/ETC is running the Kingdom this time" and "Look, females can be warriors too!".

A more interesting note is that these stations of power almost ALWAYS seem to be destroyed by personal affairs such as love or secrecy.

[KatieG]

harlot: noun a woman who engages in sexual intercourse for money

Is that the definition that you are using? Cause that's what most people think of when you use that term.

[Garlan_the_gallant]

"No proper knight" != "No true knight."

A "proper" knight is a landed and prosperous knight, a "true" knight is a chivalrous one.

Have a very nice day.

-fgalkin

Are you arguing just for the sake of arguing? Or do you really think that Sansa was not acting like a prissy brat when she said that?

[Garlan_the_gallant]

Hrmm, I'm not sure I get the the point of the bold part. Arya doesn't seem to me to have any grand notions about the value of hard work. Sansa does pay attention to people's stations &etc so yes in that way she is more discriminatory on a rubric of social class. In matters of adversity, Sansa is more passive and that turns into passive resistance, which ends up being better for her situation as Arya would've likely gotten herself killed in the same place (and vice versa).

As for a euphemism, I just really didn't see how "harlot" has anything to do with Sansa, I suppose.

I also think they handle adversity different than their brothers, but that never seems to come up.

So he used the wrong word to say that Sansa sucked real bad. Chill out and stop arguing about little things like the definition of harlot... You know what he meant.

[Lady Blackfish]

So he used the wrong word to say that Sansa sucked real bad. Chill out and stop arguing about little things like the definition of harlot... You know what he meant.

I think he and I worked it out

[The Ruby Ford]

Are you arguing just for the sake of arguing? Or do you really think that Sansa was not acting like a prissy brat when she said that?

I think hes just arguing to argue, by now its all just semantics, thats why i just ignored it

[fgalkin]

Are you arguing just for the sake of arguing? Or do you really think that Sansa was not acting like a prissy brat when she said that?

Let's look at the passage again, shall we?

The ladder to the forecastle was steep and splintery, so Sansa accepted a hand up from Lothor Brune. Ser Lothor, she had to remind herself; the man had been knighted for his valor in the Battle of the Blackwater. Though no proper knight would wear those patched brown breeches and scuffed boots, nor that cracked and waterstained leather jerkin. A square-faced stocky man with a squashed nose and a mat of nappy grey hair, Brune spoke seldom. He is stronger than he looks, though. She could tell by the ease with which he lifted her, as if she weighed nothing at all.

She sees Lothor Brune, and notices that he still dresses and acts like his old sellsword self. There is no moral judgement there.

Why is difference between "true" and "proper" important? Because Sansa never uses anything but "true knight."

From ACoK:

Sansa had prayed so hard. Could this be her answer at last, a true knight sent to save her? Perhaps it was one of the Redwyne twins, or bold Ser Balon Swann . . . or even Beric Dondarrion, the young lord her friend Jeyne Poole had loved, with his red-gold hair and the spray of stars on his black cloak.

Sansa had favored her mother’s gods over her father’s. She loved the statues, the pictures in leaded glass, the fragrance of burning incense, the septons with their robes and crystals, the magical play of the rainbows over altars inlaid with mother-of-pearl and onyx and lapis lazuli. Yet she could not deny that the godswood had a certain power too. Especially by night. Help me, she prayed, send me a friend, a true knight to champion me . . .

“Think I’m so drunk that I’d believe that?†He let go his grip on her arm, swaying slightly as he stood, stripes of light and darkness falling across his terrible burnt face. “You look almost a woman . . . face, teats, and you’re taller too, almost . . . ah, you’re still a stupid little bird, aren’t you? Singing all the songs they taught you . . . sing me a song, why don’t you? Go on. Sing to me. Some song about knights and fair maids. You like knights, don’t you?â€

He was scaring her. “T-true knights, my lord.â€

Some serving girls took charge of her, mouthing meaningless comforts to stop her shaking. One stripped off the ruins of her gown and smallclothes, and another bathed her and washed the sticky juice from her face and her hair. As they scrubbed her down with soap and sluiced warm water over her head, all she could see were the faces from the bailey. Knights are sworn to defend the weak, protect women, and fight for the right, but none of them did a thing. Only Ser Dontos had tried to help, and he was no longer a knight, no more than the Imp was, nor the Hound . . . the Hound hated knights . . . I hate them too, Sansa thought. They are no true knights, not one of them.

“All?†he mocked. “Tell me, little bird, what kind of god makes a monster like the Imp, or a halfwit like Lady Tanda’s daughter? If there are gods, they made sheep so wolves could eat mutton, and they made the weak for the strong to play with.â€

“True knights protect the weak.â€

And so on. It's alway TRUE KNIGHTS. Not ONCE does she call them "proper knights" or anything else. Therefore, if she did not use the words here, she did not mean to say that Lothor Brune was no "true knight," but only that he did not look like one.

Have a very nice day.

-fgalkin

[DanteGabriel]

So he used the wrong word to say that Sansa sucked real bad. Chill out and stop arguing about little things like the definition of harlot... You know what he meant.

This may be news to you, but some people who read and enjoy these books think word choice is important. I think your posts have been the most antagonistic in this thread, so the "chill out" advice seems a little... off.

[Garlan_the_gallant]

This may be news to you, but some people who read and enjoy these books think word choice is important. I think your posts have been the most antagonistic in this thread, so the "chill out" advice seems a little... off.

guess i did write two annoyed ones in a row. I was just saying that we're not talking about what the guy called Sansa we're talking whether or not Sansa sucks.

I like fgalkin's response there. I was seriously asking if they were arguing just for argument's sake bc I see that on here all of the time. Fgalkin, I agree with you now. Good call.

[Trackrunner]

guess i did write two annoyed ones in a row. I was just saying that we're not talking about what the guy called Sansa we're talking whether or not Sansa sucks.

Sansa does not suck at all. She is a compassionate young lady who has gone out of her way to help people and makes a point of being courteous despite the harm that has been done to her.

Sansa does not suck at all. She is the lovechild of Jon Snow and Tyrion Lannister.

See how word choice matters in an argument?

[blackwater]

Eddard for killing Lady

Robb for beheading Karstark

Oberyn for not being cautios enough with Gregor

[vhailorx]

I think Catelyn Stark might be the most frustrating character in the series, because she continuously makes TERRIBLE decisions and never repents any of them. But I don't think she can be the most disappointing, because that requires that she be a sympathetic character for whom we have high hopes. but she isn't. she's foolish and selfish from the very beginning, so while it is frustrating when she does stupid stuff, we can't really be surprised or expect any different.

But I do think Oberyn's foolishness if the fight against gregor is disappointing. He's a very skilled fighter, and he should appreciate gregor's ability. but that whole scene is sort a deus ex machina (or perhaps i should day demon ex machina) that is almost as contrived as the series of events that lead to the fall of winterfell. Very disappointing scene. Also, speaking of that scene, why doesn't Tyrion insist that cersei choose a champion from the Kingsguard, as we see in AFFC? that would seem to make things a lot easier.

I was also disappointed when Eddard refused Renly. Renly's offer was obviously the best path for the kingdom, even if he had doubts about giving the kingdom to joffrey. He should have realized that surviving Roberts death in a position of power would do more for the kingdom that handing the crown to a man like stannis and running back to winterfell. It was a very selfish decision, made to assuage his own personal sense of honor AND allow him to do what he wanted (return to the north) rather than what was best for the people.

[Errant Bard]

I think Catelyn Stark might be the most frustrating character in the series,[...]she's foolish and selfish from the very beginning, so while it is frustrating when she does stupid stuff, we can't really be surprised or expect any different.

Oh please, aside from the fact the thread is about disappointing things done by your favourite characters, and it's clear Cat is no favourite of yours, Catelyn isn't even remotely how you describe her.

So as not to hijack this thread, I'll redirect you to a few Catelyn threads:

You don't belong here

Catelyn is a @#%&$ !

Sexism in Catelyn bashing

Catelyn defense thread

Catelyn is a hypocrite

Why the Catelyn hate

Catelyn

Lady Stoneheart's vengeance

Feel free to post your hate there, though I would advise to at least read them first. Don't worry, most stop before they are 20 pages long.

Also, speaking of that scene, why doesn't Tyrion insist that cersei choose a champion from the Kingsguard, as we see in AFFC? that would seem to make things a lot easier.

Uh, because Tyrion's word has zero power, everyone is against him including the king, the regent, the hand of the king, and the other nobles who might have lent strength to the idea and Cersei isn't dumb to the point of choosing someone who might lose?

I was also disappointed when Eddard refused Renly. Renly's offer was obviously the best path for the kingdom, even if he had doubts about giving the kingdom to joffrey. He should have realized that surviving Roberts death in a position of power would do more for the kingdom that handing the crown to a man like stannis and running back to winterfell. It was a very selfish decision, made to assuage his own personal sense of honor AND allow him to do what he wanted (return to the north) rather than what was best for the people.

Eddard refused Renly for the same reason he tried to depose Joffrey. Accepting Renly is the same as accepting Joffrey, it's accepting an Usurper. I don't know where you get that notion that he did it to get back to Winterfell or how being lawful to a fault is being selfish.

Beside, he planned to survive Robert in a position of power. He didn't mean to get arrested and killed, he thought he would win and be free to put who he wanted on the throne. That was stupid, but certainly not a suicide. I don't get how having Stannis instead of Renly would be bad for the realm either.

[vhailorx]

Oh please, aside from the fact the thread is about disappointing things done by your favourite characters, and it's clear Cat is no favourite of yours, Catelyn isn't even remotely how you describe her.

No need for the vitriol. I only bring up catelyn's activities because they have been a popular topic of conversation in this thread, and are therefore relevant. My opinion of Catelyn is clearly different from yours. that doesn't make it invalid.

Uh, because Tyrion's word has zero power, everyone is against him including the king, the regent, the hand of the king, and the other nobles who might have lent strength to the idea and Cersei isn't dumb to the point of choosing someone who might lose?

Power isn't the point. the point is that in AFFC we learn that Cersei, as a member of the royal family, MUST choose a champion from the kingsguard (unless i am misremembering that book). Bronn refuses to fight Gregor for Tyrion, but he would definitely have fought Boros Blount for example. the point is that Tyrion is exactly the sort of clever guy who would try to use that sort of rules-lawyering to ensure that he didn't have to fight someone like the Mountain.

Eddard refused Renly for the same reason he tried to depose Joffrey. Accepting Renly is the same as accepting Joffrey, it's accepting an Usurper. I don't know where you get that notion that he did it to get back to Winterfell or how being lawful to a fault is being selfish.

Beside, he planned to survive Robert in a position of power. He didn't mean to get arrested and killed, he thought he would win and be free to put who he wanted on the throne. That was stupid, but certainly not a suicide. I don't get how having Stannis instead of Renly would be bad for the realm either.

Hey, I'm just talking opinion here. It's fine if you disagree. But what i will say is this. Yes, eddard beleived that he was safe after buying the city watch through LF. But we know he didn't really like or want to trust LF (in fact, it appears he only trusted her because Catelyn assured him that he could). So having TWO seperate power bases would hardly be a bad idea, given that he knew how dangerous KL was.

As for supporitng a usurper, that's a stupid argument. Ned OPENLY REBELLED AGAINST AN UNJUST MONARCH. So he is clearly capable of doing something technically illegal because it is the right thing to do. And he has to know that cersei/joffrey would be a terrible 'administration'. But Ned himself said that Stannis was 'just but harsh' and it seems clear from what we see of him that Stannis would not a good ruler. He's too much 'brittle iron' or whatever other metaphor people want to use for him. he has no mercy or compassion, which Ned thinks is an important part of rulership (afterall, he risked everything to offer mercy to joffrey, myrcella and tommen). And there was no reason Ned couldn't seize Joff, take the regency and THEN set about handing things over to Stannis. that would even make it easier to arrange for Joff's exile.

So in the end, I see Ned's actions as selfish because he does something that he knows will likely bring suffering and war to the 7 kingdoms. Yes, he can assuage his own conscience by saying that it's the technically right thing to do. But I also think that he kinda wanted to leave King's Landing and return home, rather than take up the reins of a long regency in the southron lands that made him so uncomfortable. It's an opinion. I love the character of Eddard and I am always sad to see him killed. But my opinion is that he was a flawed character who made the mistake of allowing his desire to return home overshadow the needs of the people of the 7 kingdoms.

[Errant Bard]

No need for the vitriol. I only bring up catelyn's activities because they have been a popular topic of conversation in this thread, and are therefore relevant. My opinion of Catelyn is clearly different from yours. that doesn't make it invalid.

That other people have been off topic doesn't make your post more on-topic, and Catelyn bashing deserves counterarguments. Since I know how such discussions go, I directed you to whole threads dedicated to that subject. I fail to see the vitriol anywhere.

Power isn't the point. the point is that in AFFC we learn that Cersei, as a member of the royal family, MUST choose a champion from the kingsguard (unless i am misremembering that book). Bronn refuses to fight Gregor for Tyrion, but he would definitely have fought Boros Blount for example. the point is that Tyrion is exactly the sort of clever guy who would try to use that sort of rules-lawyering to ensure that he didn't have to fight someone like the Mountain.

You miss my point. Rules are made by the ones in power, Tyrion has nothing to "lawyer" with those in power during his trial. Who is in power when Cersei is tried? Not her, but a radical branch of the faith, insisting on rules. Besides, KG are forced to fight for Cersei, the rest of the knights are not. In truth, who would fight for her if she asked the crowd? noone that's who.

As for supporitng a usurper, that's a stupid argument. Ned OPENLY REBELLED AGAINST AN UNJUST MONARCH.

Correction, he rebelled against a monarch who killed his brother and father, who covered the abduction of his sister, and who asked for his head and Robert's. On top of that, he was following the lead of his adoptive father Jon Arryn.

I don't see how Stannis can be compared to Aerys on all these points. I don't even see how copper Renly is so much better than Iron Stannis, pray enlighten me.

And there was no reason Ned couldn't seize Joff, take the regency and THEN set about handing things over to Stannis. that would even make it easier to arrange for Joff's exile

That's what he was trying to do. Did we read the same books?