Quaithe = Melisandre?

[DomDayne]

I don't think so but I am intrigued as to what Quaithe has to do with the story.

[The Scabbard Of the Morning]

My theory has always been that the Shadowbinder organization has sent one a group of them to go out and search for AA reborn, and if they run into them to give them advice. Because they aren't sure who AA is and they want to be certain that they will be able influence whoever it is. Melisandre was sent to Westeros and Quaithe was sent to the Free Cities/Dothraki sea.

[FrankenGregor]

My theory has always been that the Shadowbinder organization has sent one a group of them to go out and search for AA reborn, and if they run into them to give them advice. Because they aren't sure who AA is and they want to be certain that they will be able influence whoever it is. Melisandre was sent to Westeros and Quaithe was sent to the Free Cities/Dothraki sea.

If Melisandre and Quaithe are from the same organization (and I'm not convinced that they are), is it not also possible that said organization could be playing both sides against the middle? I don't know that Westeros is such a gem necessarily (the feeling I get from the Dany-East chapters is that the place is regarded as more or less a backwater), but there could be some reason for Shadowbinders, inc. to want a foothold there.

[shadowbinding shoe]

If Melisandre and Quaithe are from the same organization (and I'm not convinced that they are), is it not also possible that said organization could be playing both sides against the middle? I don't know that Westeros is such a gem necessarily (the feeling I get from the Dany-East chapters is that the place is regarded as more or less a backwater), but there could be some reason for Shadowbinders, inc. to want a foothold there.

So would you say Westeros is the Skagos of the Easterners? Sure, it had unicorns (I mean dragons) but so what? Their cities are fit for swine and they have mighty big walls that could topple down and crash you at any second.

They even went one time on an expedition in their little boats and slew all the able men of NINE fecking kings :fence: . Who knows what they did to their women We know what happened to poor Taena and Chataya

[aussiecossack]

I didn't get the impression that Quaithe and Melisandre shared similar goals or characteristics. The fact that both practice an art that involves shadowbinding, or blood magics, isn't conclusive of any kind of bond between them. Certainly Melisandre's blatant devotion to R'hllor distinguishes her from Quaithe's more circumspect approaches to Daenerys.

But just as a thought: perhaps in the far east, a shadowbinder, or religions/orders of which shadowbinding and blood magic are parts of, may be as common as a septon? Or their version of a maester?

[The Wolf Maid]

Wait, just to clarify, when was it stated that Quaithe was looking for Azor Ahai? I don't recall reading about that.

My pure speculation is they are rivals.

This was my assumption as well. I don't think they're from the same 'organization' but if they are, possibly from different factions.

Quiathe is Ashara Dayne.

It is known.

Damn. You beat me to it.

[Olenna]

Quiathe is Ashara Dayne.

It is known.

I like this theory too! (Seriously!) I'm not wedded to the notion of Quaithe being Melisandre--and after reading other people's posts I think it was a silly theory on my part--but I am convinced that Quaithe is somebody we already know about. Why else have her wear a mask? Quaithe = Ashara is plausible because we know that Arthur Dayne supported the Targaryens, so it seems reasonable to presume that the rest of his family, including his sister, supported them as well. And Quaithe is helping Dany...right?

[Anya, Vengeance Demon]

Wait, just to clarify, when was it stated that Quaithe was looking for Azor Ahai? I don't recall reading about that.

It wasn't stated. However, based on Sam's fourth chapter in AFFC, it seems clear that Dany is at least a _plausible_ candidate to be Azor Ahai reborn; and it seems like an awfully strange coincidence that the only two named shadowbinders are both out advising candidates for the position of prince who was promised.

[shadowbinding shoe]

It wasn't stated. However, based on Sam's fourth chapter in AFFC, it seems clear that Dany is at least a _plausible_ candidate to be Azor Ahai reborn; and it seems like an awfully strange coincidence that the only two named shadowbinders are both out advising candidates for the position of prince who was promised.

You're forgetting Mirri Maz Durr. She proved herself to be a shadowbinder when she used those shadows in Drogo's tent.

Shadowbinding is not that special. It's simply a profession/ability that exists in Ashai and the shadowlands.

[Guest Other-in-law]

but I am convinced that Quaithe is somebody we already know about. Why else have her wear a mask?

Um...maybe because she belongs to a culture where all the people wear masks? Or should we assume that the various masked Shadowmen that Dany saw in Vaes Dothrak were all Baby Aegons and Uncle Gerions? :/

[The Scabbard Of the Morning]

You're forgetting Mirri Maz Durr. She proved herself to be a shadowbinder when she used those shadows in Drogo's tent.

Shadowbinding is not that special. It's simply a profession/ability that exists in Ashai and the shadowlands.

Mirri Maz Durr is not a shadowbinder and she's not from Asshai. She's a Lamb Men medicine woman who happened to learn some blood magic, apparently from Marwan who traveled all over and might have gone to Asshai at some point.

[Olenna]

Um...maybe because she belongs to a culture where all the people wear masks? Or should we assume that the various masked Shadowmen that Dany saw in Vaes Dothrak were all Baby Aegons and Uncle Gerions? :/

I should have been clearer. I'm not saying that any random person in a mask is someone important whom we've already met. But when a person in a mask starts playing a significant role and a great deal of attention is called to the fact that they're wearing a mask, it becomes suggestive. Besides, the other Qartheen do not wear masks; Quaithe is the only one, and we're told that "it disturbed [Dany] that she had never seen the woman's face." Also, Quaithe speaks the Common Tongue of the 7 Kingdoms--unlike almost everyone else Dany has met on her travels. Coincidence? Maybe, maybe not.

All I'm saying is that when a character shows up who is exaggeratedly foreign and mysterious (no last name, wears a mask, speaks in cryptic pronouncements) yet seems to have knowledge relevant to the main character and the main character's culture, it suggests at the very least that the author is gearing up for a big revelation about that character. And when one considers that so many other characters like Ashara Dayne are missing in action, one starts to think that maybe there's a connection.

(And, for the record, the Qartheen are described as pale-skinned, so a Westerosi would have an easier time blending in there than elsewhere in the East.)

[shadowbinding shoe]

Mirri Maz Durr is not a shadowbinder and she's not from Asshai. She's a Lamb Men medicine woman who happened to learn some blood magic, apparently from Marwan who traveled all over and might have gone to Asshai at some point.

I was never too clear on the distinction between shadow-magic and blood-magic. * Mellisandre is a shadowbinder, yet she uses blood (in the leaches she burns and in the theoretical creation of dragons) and Mirri Maz Dur has shadows dancing with her in Drogo's tent when she heals/curses him.

Mirri was not called a blood magician as far as I can remember. She was called a Maegi. The bloodriders claim that maegi sleep with men and steal their strength for their magics. This is exactly what Melisandre did with Stannis when she created those shadowbabes.

I never disputed the fact that she is a Lamb Men priestess but she tells Dany she traveled the world to learn other crafts such as that of a maegi. But she didn't learn her magical craft from Marwyn, he taught her surgical skills from the Citadel. It was Mirri who taught him the magic SHE learned in exchange for it. We don't know if Marwyn went on to learn more magic elsewhere but it seemed from the tale that he didn't know anything about the subject before he met her.

* The distinction between blood magic and shadow magic is made in Westeros and not in the East which is closer to the magic practitioners. In the east they're just called Maegi. The shadows we hear about seem otherworldly and one has to wonder how they are summoned into the world. I think this is done by giving blood sacrifices. A repeated theme in the magic of Westeros is women keeping their beauty by bathing in blood. I wonder, is Melisandre's beauty natural or does she use this technique?

[The Scabbard Of the Morning]

The point is, Mirri Maz Durr picked up bits of of blood magic (probably from Marwyn because he's the one who traveled and not her, but there is no way to know for certain). She's no more a shadowbinder than she is a maester, despite having learned some healing skills from Marwyn.

[shadowbinding shoe]

The point is, Mirri Maz Durr picked up bits of of blood magic (probably from Marwyn because he's the one who traveled and not her, but there is no way to know for certain). She's no more a shadowbinder than she is a maester, despite having learned some healing skills from Marwyn.

Here's the quote:

Dany ignored the bloodrider’s outburst. This old, homely, thickbodied woman did not look like a maegi to her. “Where did you learn your healing, Mirri Maz Duur?â€

“My mother was godswife before me, and taught me all the songs and spells most pleasing to the Great Shepherd, and how to make the sacred smokes and ointments from leaf and root and berry. When I was younger and more fair, I went in caravan to Asshai by the Shadow, to learn from their mages. Ships from many lands come to Asshai, so I lingered long to study the healing ways of distant peoples. A moonsinger of the Jogos Nhai gifted me with her birthing songs, a woman of your own riding people taught me the magics of grass and corn and horse, and a maester from the Sunset Lands opened a body for me and showed me all the secrets that hide beneath the skin.â€

Ser Jorah Mormont spoke up. “A maester?â€

“Marwyn, he named himself,†the woman replied in the Common Tongue. “From the sea. Beyond the sea. The Seven Lands, he said. Sunset Lands. Where men are iron and dragons rule. He taught me this speech.â€

Mirri traveled the world and learned magic from the mages of Asshai. I don't see why you belittle her abilities. She may not be a Maester but that is because she wasn't in the Citadel, not because her knowledge is deficient. From her tale it seemed she wanted to be the perfect healer, verseant in all the healing techniques of the world.

And explain again, in what way was what she did in that tent to Drogo not shadow magic?

[The Scabbard Of the Morning]

I didn't say she didn't practice some shadow magic, I said she wasn't a full fledged Shadowbinder, and she wasn't, not any more than she was a full fledged Maester.

[Guest Other-in-law]

Besides, the other Qartheen do not wear masks; Quaithe is the only one, and we're told that "it disturbed [Dany] that she had never seen the woman's face."

Quaithe is nor more Qartheen than Dany. Qarth and the Shadowlands are different places. Kind of like how the sun and the moon are not the same person. All other people from the Shadowlands have worn masks, as far as we know. Dany, in aGoT:

Dany liked the strangeness of the Eastern Market too; with all it's queer sights and sounds and smells. She often spent her mornings there, nibbling tree eggs, locust pie, and green noodles, listening to the high ululating voices of spellsingers, gaping at manticores in silver cages, and immense grey elephants and the striped black and white horses of the Jogos Nhai. She enjoyed watching all the people too: dark solemn Asshai'i and tall, pale Qartheen, the bright eyed men of Yi Ti in monkey-tail hats, warrior maids from Bayasabhad, Shamyriana, and Kayakayanaya with iron rings in their nipples and rubies in their cheeks, even the dour and frightening Shadow Men, who covered their arms and chests with tattoos and hid their faces behind masks.

Mirri did not learn Shadowbinding from Marwyn:

"There is a spell." Her voice was quiet scarcely more than a whisper. "But it is hard, lady, and dark. Some would say that death is cleaner. I learned the way in Asshai, and paid dear for the lesson. My teacher was a bloodmage from the Shadowlands."

What Marwyn taught her was (surprise surprise) Maester medicine, as SBS's post shows.

[Olenna]

Quaithe is nor more Qartheen than Dany. Qarth and the Shadowlands are different places. Kind of like how the sun and the moon are not the same person.

Yes, I was mistaken about this. I assumed Quaithe was Qartheen because she came along around the time Dany reached Qarth, and probably, on a subliminal level, because of the similarity of the name Quaithe to Qarth. I'm not too clear on the geography of the East. I thought the Shadowlands was an umbrella term for everything east of Vaes Dothrak, but it actually just refers to Asshai, right?

Speaking of the Shadowlands/Asshai, I find it incredibly odd that no Westerosi we've met has been there or has any idea what goes on there. I have no idea what goes on there either, except that people learn how to shadowbind there. What's concealed under the Shadow? And why is it that every shadowbinder we've met has been female? (That may change with Marwyn, of course.) Thoughts, anyone?

[Guest Other-in-law]

I have no idea what goes on there either, except that people learn how to shadowbind there. What's concealed under the Shadow? And why is it that every shadowbinder we've met has been female? (That may change with Marwyn, of course.) Thoughts, anyone?

I'm very curious about what's up with the Shadow by Asshai as well, but have only the wildest speculation on it. At one point someone suggested maybe the Shadow was cast by a sattelite (moon or somesuch) in synchronous orbit with the planet, and thus connected to the weird seasons, but GRRM's comments that the explanation of the seasons is not scientific make that sort of thing seem unlikely. I think there may be some connection with the Others though; since they are two messed up phenomena that seem to be on opposite sides of the (known) planet, like contrary magical poles or something. Asshai and the Shadow are far to the southeast, while the lands beyond the Wall are at the far northwest in relation to everything else. Of course, it's not clear where the equator is, but if the planet is bigger than earth (which GRRM has said) than they're probably not literally on opposite sides; and if they were it would require a "hot" south pole, which doesn't seem very likely.

The fact that Shadowbinders can 'steal' someone's shadow (based on Mel and Stannis) makes me wonder if that didn't happen to an entire region, and it's a black and white polarity between the Heart of Winter and it's stolen shadow... but, bleah! We really just have no clue.

[Olenna]

I think there may be some connection with the Others though; since they are two messed up phenomena that seem to be on opposite sides of the (known) planet, like contrary magical poles or something.

This thought occurred to me as well; we have this huge magical force in the northwest and nothing to "balance" it so far...except Dany's dragons, but there are only three of them as compared to the thousands (?) of Others. So, assuming that the climax of the series will be an epic confrontation between the forces of ice and the forces of fire, it would make a lot of sense for some major supernatural "fiery" force or species to be under the Shadow in order to balance the "icy" race of Others. But if that's so, Book 5 is kind of late to introduce them.