Brandon Sanderson to Complete Wheel of Time

[Rhom]

Can someone remind me, just what exactly is Strike at Shayol Ghul? Is it a stand alone novella or short story? Its been years since I read anything WoT related and I don't recall this.

[lordofavalon]

I'm still looking for an actual source for this claim about a general council or that there were more than 40 Forsaken, or that there were 40 Forsaken alive at the time of the strike at Shayol Ghul. It's not in the Question of the Week, near as I can tell.

ETA: In fact, I think that 40 figure is erroneous, re: True Power-tappers. It seems Moghedien says there were twenty-nine others besides herself, for a total of 30.

sorry, I'm going from memory here, I don't have the books with me, so if you checked and it said 29, then its 29.

As for the general council stuff

"Week 12 Question: In Winters Heart, you mention that back in the Age of Legends, there were several other Forsaken that the Dark One had killed because he suspected they would betray him. What's their story? Were those people ever as high ranking as the 13 survivors, or where they more like high-ranking Dreadlords then actual Forsaken?

Robert Jordan Answers: First off, Dreadlords was the name given to men and women who could channel and sided with the Shadow in the Trolloc Wars. Yes, the women were called Dreadlords, too. They might have liked to call themselves "the Chosen," like the Forsaken, but feared to. The real Forsaken might not have appreciated it when they returned, as prophecies of the Shadow foretold would happen. Some of the Dreadlords had authority and responsibility equivalent to that of the Forsaken in the War of the Shadow, however. They ran the Shadow's side of the Trolloc Wars, though without the inherent ability to command the Myrddraal that the Forsaken possess, meaning they had to negotiate with them. Overall command at the beginning was in another's hands.

Forsaken was the name given to Aes Sedai who went over to the Shadow in the War of the Shadow at the end of the Age of Legends, though of course, they called themselves the Chosen, and despite the tales of the "current"Age, there were many more than a few of them. Since they occupied all sorts of levels, you might say that many were equivalent to some of the lesser Dreadlords, but it would be incorrect to call them so. At the time, they were all Forsaken—or Chosen—from the greatest to the least.

Some of those Forsaken the Dark One killed were every bit as high-ranking as the thirteen who were remembered, and who you might say constituted a large part of the Dark One's General Staff at the time of the sealing. With the Forsaken, where treachery and backstabbing were an acceptable way of getting ahead, the turnover in the upper ranks was fairly high, though Ishamael, Demandred, Lanfear, Graendal, Semirhage, and later Sammael, were always at the top end of the pyramid. They were very skilled at personal survival, politically and physically.

In large part the thirteen were remembered because they were trapped at Shayol Ghul, and so their names became part of that story, though it turned out that details of them, stories of them, survived wide-spread knowledge of the tale of the actual sealing itself. Just that they had been sealed away. Other Forsaken were left behind, so to speak, free but in a world that was rapidly sliding down the tube. The men eventually went mad and died from the same taint that killed off the other male Aes Sedai. They had no access to the Dark One's protective filters. The women died, too, though from age or in battle or from natural disasters created by insane male AesSedai or from diseases that could no longer be controlled because civilization itself had been destroyed and access to those who were skilled in Healing was all but gone. And soon after their deaths, their names were forgotten, except for what might possibly be discovered in some ancient manuscript fragment that survived the Breaking. A bleak story of people who deserved no better, and not worth telling in any detail."

and i just theorized that its safe to assume that the general staff composed of those who had the right to use the true power

[Ran]

Weird, I kept skimming the archive for references to Forsaken and couldn't find any of that. Well, mystery solved.

[Piper]

The Forsaken have been taken down in modern times due to overconfidence and lack of familiarity with how the world works.

I don't know about the "how the world works" element of things. Rahvin, Sammael, and Be'lal did superlative jobs taking over entire countries for their own playthings, only to be undone when Rand and/or Moiraine appear, tossing around balefire like nobodies business. So unless they weren't expecting the balefire because it was such a taboo in their days, I think its hard to attribute their downfalls to anything having to do with "how the world works."

[Galactus]

I don't know about the "how the world works" element of things. Rahvin, Sammael, and Be'lal did superlative jobs taking over entire countries for their own playthings, only to be undone when Rand and/or Moiraine appear, tossing around balefire like nobodies business.

I suspect that would be part of the unfamiliarity. That until they were confronted it, they thought no one knew Balefire anymore.

[Shryke]

Because there weren't just 40 Chosen. There were 40 Chosen who were the Grand Council. Every Aes Sedai that went Dark was a Chosen. Unless you are saying that half the Aes Sedai population totalled out to 40 there was a shitload more Forsaken out there at the time of the sealing.

As to my "claim". Rand, Logain and a few others whip a hundred thousand trollocs by themselves. To think that the Aes Sedai of the day couldn't do that is my problem. Could RJ have meant it to be that way? Sure, but it's also retarded.

Don't forget that Trollocs and such are simply the fodder ofthe Dark Ones army. Most of the really nasty stuff apparently didn't make it. I mean, the worms in the Blight are just the larval stage of something REALLY nasty.

Combine that with full on Dark One influence and 50% of the Channelers being evil, and I don't think it's hard to see why they were loosing.

[Andhaira]

I suspect that would be part of the unfamiliarity. That until they were confronted it, they thought no one knew Balefire anymore.

Incorrect. Moiraine and Rand both used Balefire inthe stone of tears adn in shadow rising as well; they killed forsaken using it. That in turn means the DO automatically knows that his chosen was killed by balefire and so he cannot resseruct him! So yeah, Rahvin and Co. did know about Balefire. Its simply flawed wirting IMO AND the fact that the chosen were ordered NOT to destroy Rand because the DO wanted Rand to turn to the dark, so that the cycle of the dragon being reborn would be broken. Still I do wish moiraine had ben destroyed by another forsaken, though she would still get to kill one.

That question of the week was quite interesting and actually makes one wonder: Who the hell is Mazrim Taim? We know he's not taimandred now. So who? A new dreadlord...well mayyybe. IMO is it too far gone to assume he is actually a NEW chosen? I mean, he seemed to know a few things about Dashiva and who he really was, and yet he was NOT afraid of him!

I really used to like Taim and always thought he was one of those effortless badasses. I hope he turns ot the light; so many turn ot the dark maybe it woudl be cool to have one turn to the light. Maybe Moiraine will end up bonding him. Who knows.

[Shryke]

I don't know about the "how the world works" element of things. Rahvin, Sammael, and Be'lal did superlative jobs taking over entire countries for their own playthings, only to be undone when Rand and/or Moiraine appear, tossing around balefire like nobodies business. So unless they weren't expecting the balefire because it was such a taboo in their days, I think its hard to attribute their downfalls to anything having to do with "how the world works."

Let's go down the list:

Be'lal got blind-sided. He was in complete control till that point. It's like if your mugging a 90 year old granny in a wheel-chair and she suddenly pulls out a bazooka and blows you away.

Rahvin had Rand pretty good, till Nynaeve ambushes him.

Sammael also had Rand dead, will Moridin gives him a hand and then the whole Shadar Logoth thing with the missing Aiel chick.

So ... what was the problem again?

[Werthead]

Taim is clearly more than just an ordinary Darkfriend. He uses the terms 'so-called Aiel' and 'so-called Aes Sedai', which only the Forsaken use. He could well be a 'new Chosen'. Demandred still makes the most sense but RJ explicitly and repeatedly said it wasn't him, plus at one point someone received orders from both Demandred and Taim within a short while of one another, which would seem redundant if they were same person.

[Slurktan]

Can someone remind me, just what exactly is Strike at Shayol Ghul? Is it a stand alone novella or short story? Its been years since I read anything WoT related and I don't recall this.

Here you go: http://www.lobring.com/books/shayol.html

It's a short story of a sort that RJ wrote to put in the BWEB. He also put it online before the BWEB came out. I actually find it fascinating, it reminds me of the stories about the end of the Second Age in Tolkien's wroks.

[Fatuous]

Taim is clearly more than just an ordinary Darkfriend. He uses the terms 'so-called Aiel' and 'so-called Aes Sedai', which only the Forsaken use. He could well be a 'new Chosen'. Demandred still makes the most sense but RJ explicitly and repeatedly said it wasn't him, plus at one point someone received orders from both Demandred and Taim within a short while of one another, which would seem redundant if they were same person.

I have my own take on the Taim/Demandred dynamic, now. It's as that Asha'man told Logain at the start of Winter's Heart: "If you attended Taim's classes, you'd learn something." Proxy, you know, means never having to put yourself out into the open if you have some sucker to take the blame.

But the guy at the end of Knife of Dreams, yeah, that was Demandred. After the Hundred Companions were trained and the base of power fully secured, Taim lost his usefulness and was severely downsized. "Let the Lord of Chaos rule" and all that.

But as there was a Mazrim Taim, I would say that Demandred took the "Teacher" role initially at the start of book 6. After Rand mentioned that one of the Forsaken may attempt to infiltrate the training, Demandred passed the role to his understudy.

[Rhom]

I have my own take on the Taim/Demandred dynamic, now. It's as that Asha'man told Logain at the start of Winter's Heart: "If you attended Taim's classes, you'd learn something." Proxy, you know, means never having to put yourself out into the open if you have some sucker to take the blame.

But the guy at the end of Knife of Dreams, yeah, that was Demandred. After the Hundred Companions were trained and the base of power fully secured, Taim lost his usefulness and was severely downsized. "Let the Lord of Chaos rule" and all that.

But as there was a Mazrim Taim, I would say that Demandred took the "Teacher" role initially at the start of book 6. After Rand mentioned that one of the Forsaken may attempt to infiltrate the training, Demandred passed the role to his understudy.

What are you trying to say? Demandred is Taim except when he isn't Taim?

Here you go: http://www.lobring.com/books/shayol.html

It's a short story of a sort that RJ wrote to put in the BWEB. He also put it online before the BWEB came out. I actually find it fascinating, it reminds me of the stories about the end of the Second Age in Tolkien's wroks.

Thanks, I'll look into that.

[Galactus]

I assume the idea is "Demandred is sometimes posing as Taim, but Taim there is also a real Taim."

[Piper]

Let's go down the list:

Be'lal got blind-sided. He was in complete control till that point. It's like if your mugging a 90 year old granny in a wheel-chair and she suddenly pulls out a bazooka and blows you away.

Rahvin had Rand pretty good, till Nynaeve ambushes him.

Sammael also had Rand dead, will Moridin gives him a hand and then the whole Shadar Logoth thing with the missing Aiel chick.

So ... what was the problem again?

I think you're just furthering my point. My problem wasn't that they were so badass they shouldn't have been defeated the way they were (that's a separate argument that I don't have the recollection of the books to make right now). My contention was with the attribution of their downfalls to 'not understanding how the world works' by pointing out that they'd been enjoying modern times pretty well. Being outnumbered in a fight, or ambushed, or whatnot, does not have to do with the differences between their Age and the current Age.

[Fatuous]

What are you trying to say? Demandred is Taim except when he isn't Taim?

I fault Jordan on this by making Demandred so obviously Taim in book 6, so much so that Jordan backed away from it afterwards. And about that scene when Taim, Demandred and Moridin all give orders to Kisman: Mesaana goes masked among the Aes Sedai and I assumed that people could have figured out that Demandred could do the same among the Ash'aman if necessary. I don't know what Kisman saw but by description, Demandred and Taim share a passing resemblance at the very least.

"Demandred was using Taim while the M'Heal was subject to the power of the Dragon Reborn." is the way I think I put it. When Sammael said Demandred liked using proxies what he really was doing was calling Demandred a coward. The fact that Taim could turn out to be the biggest "straw man" in the series would explain quite a few irregularities in the Osan'gar, Demandred and Moridin relationship.

Taim's special classes must have been a hundred percent Forsaken taught, given how the Forsaken do not like sharing knowledge with modern channelers. Seeing how it was either Moridin or Demandred, I think the conclusion is pretty obvious as the "Lord of Chaos" plan seems to be more of a sham to keep most of the Forsaken busy while Moridin consolidates his own power.

Was Taim compelled, was he turned by the 13 Aes Sedai and 13 Fade trick or did he willingly join the Shadow to stave off the Madness is something of a question still. Personally, I think it was the 13, 13 thing which only made him far more disposable in the end. And it had to be used some point in the series.

There is one more thing that I caught in my reread of book 6: In one of his fits around Taim, Lews Therin shouted out that Demandred wanted Ilyena. This kind of makes me wonder about the relationship between Taim and Elayne later in the series. Maybe it's just one of those "near anagram" things...