Marwyn

[shadowbinding shoe]

Marwyn tells Sam at the end of FFC that the Maesters of the Citadel hate magic and prophecy and that he must hide his interest in this subject or else, he would be gotten rid of by those 'grey sheep.'

How much trust can we put in Marwyn's claims? Dragons are gone from Westeros but as far as we know the Maesters had nothing to do with it. It could be the result of inbreeding, it could be the result of a life in captivity or it could be the result of a certain Targaryen hating dragons.

And what of Marwyn himself? Despite all his loud claims, no one in the Citadel bothered him because he dealt in magic and prophecy. He is hale, whole and free to move, teach young students his crafts and wear a valyrian link, just like some other maesters throughout the kingdom.

The only maester who is punished is qyburn and his punishment is not for the crime of performing magic but for torturing live victims to learn more about death, killing and human tolerance to his torture. This is not about magic, this is about medical ethics (experimental surgery is only allowed on corpses, not living subjects.)

And look at the maesters' initiation ceremony. They are asked to light a magical candle.

I think we should take marwyn's claims with a grain of salt. After all mages are often considered insane and dealing in shadow and blood magics (which Mirri Maz Durr taught him) can make you jump at shadows.

[Ran]

The point of the initiation ceremony, of course, is to prove that magic is a pointless pursuit. They teach magic as a matter of lore and theory, rather than a practical subject.

That said, some of his remarks certainly seem like a particularly one-sided view of things. For example, his notion that Aemon was not made an archmaester because the "grey sheep" did not approve of his own pursuits, when in fact it probably has a lot more to do with the fact that Aemon had sworn the oath of the Night's Watch and was determined to stay there so as not to be used against his own family. He can't fulfill the duties of an archmaester from the Wall.

One can also question his belief that there's a serious conspiracy to put an end to magic, which resulted in the deaths of the last dragons, etc. I think it's true that the Citadel's culture is anti-magic and moves in that direction. But to go so far as plotting how to bring down the dragons, and then the Targaryens, in an organized way? I don't know about that.

[a_homeless_harpy]

I found Marwyn rather sane. Of course he might have been bitter because of lack of acceptance for his interests among other archmaesters but he had a proof that magic and dragons matter - his obsidian candle was alight.

One can also question his belief that there's a serious conspiracy to put an end to magic, which resulted in the deaths of the last dragons, etc

Maybe it was true - we know too little about the circumstances of death of the last dragons. I suppose the anti-magic and anti-Tangaryen parties might have cooperated in the demise of the last dragons and dragon kings. Grand Maester Pycelle, after all, played an active role during the war between Aerys and Robert Baratheon.

[Ran]

Harpy,

I found Marwyn rather sane.

You can be sane and paranoid at the same time. I don't think he's crazy. I just think that there are reasons to think that his opinions that touch on the archmaesters are not necessarily to be treated as absolutely correct. This idea of a concerted, murderous conspiracy at the heart of the Citadel is something that's not remotely proven, and could just as easily be explained in terms of the Citadel's general attitudes rather than an actual organized policy.

Maybe it was true - we know too little about the circumstances of death of the last dragons

We know that they were sickly, and it's rumored that Aegon III had them poisoned. If the rumor is true, it's entirely probable that maesters were involved in creating and administering the poison at his command. But this does not prove a conspiracy.

Grand Maester Pycelle, after all, played an active role during the war between Aerys and Robert Baratheon.

Yet as he has very loudly protested in the books, he did it out of loyalty to Tywin and House Lannister rather than any apparent hatred of magic or the Targaryens.

Marwyn could still be a good guy and just be _wrong_ about his fellow archmaesters. We'll have to wait and see what evidence appears in the books to prove his assertions that they're prepared to kill people for their conspiracy.

[Mezeh]

I’m not sure that maester Aemon was bound to the Wall by the same oath as Black Brothers are. There was no necessary for it since maesters are obliged to serve at the places they are appointed too so it was no need to take any additional oath.

Yet it is possible and even probable that Citadel could recall maester it needs back to Citadel and appoint another to his place. So Marwyn probably referred to that that Citadel never tried to recall maester Aemon though his initial reason to stay on the Wall (not to be used in plotting against his brother) expired after Egg died.

[shadowbinding shoe]

I’m not sure that maester Aemon was bound to the Wall by the same oath as Black Brothers are. There was no necessary for it since maesters are obliged to serve at the places they are appointed too so it was no need to take any additional oath.

Yet it is possible and even probable that Citadel could recall maester it needs back to Citadel and appoint another to his place. So Marwyn probably referred to that that Citadel never tried to recall maester Aemon though his initial reason to stay on the Wall (not to be used in plotting against his brother) expired after Egg died.

Maester Aemon definitely swore the oaths of the Night Watch. He said that being a maester was not enough in his opinion to get him out of the politicking so he took the extra oath and service in the Night's Watch.

Also, can the Citadel recall a maester from his assigned castle without the consent of castle's owner? I think if they could do that the Lords of the realm would have trusted their maesters a lot less. How can they confide their secrets to them if they think they could be called back to their Citadel to report?

[Ran]

In AFfC, Samwell notes that Aemon was a Sworn Brother of the Night's Watch.

[Mezeh]

In AFfC, Samwell notes that Aemon was a Sworn Brother of the Night's Watch.

In the case Marwyn probably was unaware of that. Besides Sam may have been wrong. There is no doubt that after maester Aemon spent so much time on the Wall they referred to him as brother but I don’t remember that he took part into commander election every brother was supposed to take.

[Ran]

Mezeh,

Besides Sam may have been wrong.

From Aemon himself:

Egg emptied out the dungeons too, so I would not need to say my vows alone.

Marwyn knows that Aemon swore the vows of the Watch. He may be assuming that, just as the Watch has sent Samwell to become a maester, they could have been asked to send Aemon down to serve as an archmaester. But he's making a lot of assumptions about how Aemon and the Watch would have responded, as well as the motivations of his fellow archmaesters.

Marwyn could be absolutely right about this murderous conspiracy. But we don't have proof of it. Just because he says it does not make it true.

I would also guess, BTW, that Aemon would stay away at least through the reign of not only his brother, but his brother's son. If people were upset at Jaehaerys II sufficiently enough to want to overthrow him, Aemon would have seemed a very good prospect to act as a figurehead -- the elder son that was passed over for the younger, etc.

In any case, I'm not sure I trust the entirety of what Marwyn claims. Again, this does not mean he's bad. It just means that he's mortal and fallible (though we know this to be the case, anyways, since there's a Faceless Man hanging around that he isn't aware of.)

[A wilding]

It must surely have been widespread knowledge at the time that Aemon had gone to the Wall to ensure that he completely and totally ceased to become a factor in Westeros politics. Any Archmaester who bothered to find out anything about Aemon ought to be aware of this, whatever the technicalities of what oaths Aemon may have sworn.

So even if Marwyn was not lying about the reason why Aemon was not brought back to Oldtown and made an Archmaester, he is at least jumping to a conclusion that puts the worst possible interpretation on the grey sheep's actions.

Edit: beaten to it by Ran.

[Mezeh]

Mezeh,

From Aemon himself:

QUOTE

Egg emptied out the dungeons too, so I would not need to say my vows alone.

Ran,

I remember that. Moreover there was another mention of the Aemon’s oath in AGOT when he spoke with Jon he called himself maester sworn to the Wall.

The question however is if that was the same oath every Black brother swore or different oath of maester. Once again during election of lord commander all Black brothers have equal rights yet maester Aemon refused to take any direct part of it. The reason maybe that he was maester on the Wall and not the Black brother and his oath did not aloows him to take any part of election. In such a case it is possible that Citadel had an ability to recall him back to Citadel.

[Ran]

He's a Sworn Brother. There's only one vow that they swear.

The vows of the Night's Watch don't talk about the election at all. Members of the Watch aren't _forced_ to vote, after all. It's their choice, and he chose not to, probably due to his position that the maesters should be impartial.

I don't see how the Citadel could recall him from the Wall, therefore, given that he's sworn to serve within the Night's Watch. For that matter, we don't know if the vows of the Citadel entail doing as the archmaesters order you to do. In fact, I am dubious that they do.

Now, the Lord Commander of the Watch could tell him to go to Oldtown. But we don't know that he'd do that, we don't know that Aemon would want to do that, we don't know that the Citadel had conspiratorial reasons for not asking this, and so on. All we have is Marwyn's claim, and Marwyn's claim seems -- at least in the case of Aemon -- to be at odds with various facts we know about Aemon.

There's no reason to believe that everything Marwyn says is the absolute truth.

[Guest Other-in-law]

Maesters are supposed to serve, not rule (according to their own ideology, anyway), and exercising an electoral franchise is probably construed as a minor form of ruling, at least to a scrupulous maester.

I find Marwyn's allegations to be largely very persuasive. Not the part about Maester Aemon, that just sounds like spin to me. But the relentless hostility to magic of the maesters as a whole....reread Cressen's prologue for a fanatical magic hater, or every other line out of Armen the Acolyte's mealy mouth as he parrots his superior's propaganda and dismisses Leo's claims without the slightest bit of testing....lends a lot of credence to Marwyn's argument.

They not only deny that magic happens to work in this or that specific case, they posit that it can't work at all, and even should not be allowed to work. Seriously, Cressen was the Citadel's version of a suicide bombing martyr!

[shadowbinding shoe]

Maester Aemon was in charge of counting the votes in the LC elections. I think it's logical that the man in charge of that wouldn't be one of the voters so there would be no fear of him faking the results.

Other in law - the maesters may not love magic but that does not conspirators out of them make. Cressen wasn't following orders from the Citadel, he was trying to save his beloved lord from a malign influence. Melisandre was corrupting Lord Stannis as seen for example by the treatment Cressen was given in the feast (a loyal servant since Stannis' childhood made to wear a fool's hat on the say so of Melisandre)

[BlueLion70]

And look at the maesters' initiation ceremony. They are asked to light a magical candle.

That's hardly an illustration of your point though, the purpose of that test is to fail it, so that they can reflect on their failure in later life.

[Guest Other-in-law]

Other in law - the maesters may not love magic but that does not conspirators out of them make. Cressen wasn't following orders from the Citadel, he was trying to save his beloved lord from a malign influence. Melisandre was corrupting Lord Stannis as seen for example by the treatment Cressen was given in the feast (a loyal servant since Stannis' childhood made to wear a fool's hat on the say so of Melisandre)

'As seen', perhaps, but not 'because of'. Cressen was already conspiring to murder Melisandre in cold blood before that business with Patchface's helm. His very first thought of her is that she's filled Lady Selyse's head with madness, and from then out it's all about how her madness must be stopped.

What madness is that, I wonder? That Stannis could prevail over Renly's vast host? He did. That she has supernatural powers at her disposal to aid King Stannis? She does. They work. Why are successful plans to advance one's cause "madness"?

And that business with the fool's crown was hardly unprovoked. Cressen equated Rh'llorians to children and flat out denied the power of their god. Well...some people tend to find that sort of thing insulting, y'know? He started it.

Cressen thinks to himself "It makes no matter, I have a faith of my own." Does he refer to the seven faces of god, or to the Citadel's bold vision for the future? In many ways the maesters represent the forces of science and reason, but they fail that in a very crucial respect. They don't attempt to verify what is real through testing and reproducible experimentation...at least not when it comes to magic. In that topic they simply are not interested in the truth. We don't see a Maester Randi patiently debunking every self-styled mage, staking a thousand dragons that their claims can be disproven. They try to scorn and mock it into submission, and if that doesn't work, well they are knowledgeable in the use of poisons and are prepared to use them, as Cressen showed us.

[shadowbinding shoe]

'As seen', perhaps, but not 'because of'. Cressen was already conspiring to murder Melisandre in cold blood before that business with Patchface's helm. His very first thought of her is that she's filled Lady Selyse's head with madness, and from then out it's all about how her madness must be stopped.

What madness is that, I wonder? That Stannis could prevail over Renly's vast host? He did. That she has supernatural powers at her disposal to aid King Stannis? She does. They work. Why are successful plans to advance one's cause "madness"?

I wasn't talking about her abilities (but they were only proven after Cressen's death in any case). I was talking about the corruption of Stannis' character. The story only begins shortly before Cressen's death and yet he tells us that Stannis has changed for the worse. From a just man he's become an adulterer, a back-stabbing murderer, an abuser of innocents, and yes, a careless mocker of a kindly loving father figure.

And that business with the fool's crown was hardly unprovoked. Cressen equated Rh'llorians to children and flat out denied the power of their god. Well...some people tend to find that sort of thing insulting, y'know? He started it.

Melisandre can have her pettiness (but that would still make her a petty person) but Stannis approves of her actions. Shouldn't he defend his loyal loving maester of many years. Shouldn't he feel something beside annoyance at his death?

Cressen thinks to himself "It makes no matter, I have a faith of my own." Does he refer to the seven faces of god, or to the Citadel's bold vision for the future? In many ways the maesters represent the forces of science and reason, but they fail that in a very crucial respect. They don't attempt to verify what is real through testing and reproducible experimentation...at least not when it comes to magic. In that topic they simply are not interested in the truth. We don't see a Maester Randi patiently debunking every self-styled mage, staking a thousand dragons that their claims can be disproven. They try to scorn and mock it into submission, and if that doesn't work, well they are knowledgeable in the use of poisons and are prepared to use them, as Cressen showed us.

It is a faith of his own, not a faith of the Citadel. Perhaps in reason, perhaps in the gods. He does not say, 'In the name of the Citadel, die witch!' He does not think 'For the seven and the Citadel!' as he drinks from the poisoned cup.

The maesters allow and some of them actually study magic. They don't deny it's existence, only that it has faded in the present to a shadow of its past. Reread the Bran chapters where he discuss the subject with his maester. He explained about the magic of the CotF and he was interested in the subject (he kept arrow heads made by them. He did not ground them to pieces on sight)

And they're right! Look at poor old Sam. No matter what witchery his father subjected him to he remained the same Sam that Lord Tarly hated. Maesters are not exactly scientists. They're public servants in charge of health, giving council and education. They're not there to prove to the masses that magic doesn't work.

[Ran]

Is Ser Davos part of the conspiracy?

Ser Davos moved aside to make room on the bench. "We all should be in motley tonight," he said gloomily as Cressen seated himself, "for this is fool's business we're about. The red woman has seen victory in her flames, so Stannis means to press his claim, no matter what the numbers. Before she's done we're all like to see what Patchface saw, I fear, the bottom of the sea."

Cressen was hardly the only one to think it madness to risk everything on Melisandre's say-so. Her madness is the madness that Stannis is prophesized to be able to defeat everyone before him. And, you know, he was right -- it _is_ mad. Melisandre is a dangerous zealot who is trying to bend prophecy to fit her vision, when we have several people note that that's not how it works (_Marwyn_ among them).

So, Cressen is hardly proof of the idea that there's a conspiracy in the Citadel to kill magicians. He had plenty of motive to kill her that had nothing to do with a conspiracy.

Does Luwin look like he was going to kill the Stark kids, or even considered doing it, when they had their prophetic dreams and their wolves? He doubted, he was skeptical -- but he wasn't vehement and he wasn't murderous about it; he didn't have Osha beaten or sent away for encouraging it. Indeed, as shadowbinding notes, he and others _can_ study the lore of magic at the Citadel. Some archmaesters consider it foolish, but they haven't moved to strike it from the curriculum, so to speak, which strikes me as very strong evidence indeed that there is no conspiracy to destroy it.

(For that matter, we know of at least one Grand Maester who was "steeped" in sorcery. )

In any case, I don't think you can just accept that Marwyn is spinning one thing, and then decide everything else he says in unvarnished truth because of quite circumstancial details. There's nothing in Cressen's thoughts that suggest he's acting as part of a conspiracy, for example. He never thinks of the Citadel in that context. It's all about protecting Stannis and the realm from Melisandre's mad vision.

[Guest Other-in-law]

Is Ser Davos part of the conspiracy?

Well, he does start a parallel conspiracy or two of his own, but no, I don't see him as a minion of the Citadel.

Does Luwin look like he was going to kill the Stark kids, or even considered doing it, when they had their prophetic dreams and their wolves? He doubted, he was skeptical -- but he wasn't vehement and he wasn't murderous about it; he didn't have Osha beaten or sent away for encouraging it.

A conspiracy doesn't require every single maester to be a party in order to exist. Luwin seems to be a case of a former magic aficianado who has been successfully disillusioned, but that doesn't mean he would be trustworthy to the conspirators.

Indeed, as shadowbinding notes, he and others _can_ study the lore of magic at the Citadel. Some archmaesters consider it foolish, but they haven't moved to strike it from the curriculum, so to speak, which strikes me as very strong evidence indeed that there is no conspiracy to destroy it.

That shows that the Archmaesters are in Tyrion's intelligence range, rather than Cersei's. 'When you tear a man's tongue out you merely show the world that you fear what he has to say'. Scorn and condescension is far more effective!

In any case, I don't think you can just accept that Marwyn is spinning one thing, and then decide everything else he says in unvarnished truth because of quite circumstancial details.

More of, he 'I think he's on to something' than 'unvarnished truth'. And the interpretation that someone can be right about some things and wrong about others and have their own agenda mixed in to skew it all seems perfectly reasonable to me.

There's nothing in Cressen's thoughts that suggest he's acting as part of a conspiracy, for example. He never thinks of the Citadel in that context. It's all about protecting Stannis and the realm from Melisandre's mad vision.

Well, Ned never thinks to himself that Jon is Rhaegar's son, either. The series is not a complete stranger to reticent POVs. But Cressen does think of the Citadel as he drinks his doom, dying for his cause:

"His hands were shaking, but he made himself be strong. A maester of the citadel must not be afraid."

I also noticed something else about his beliefs:

"If there are gods, surely they will forgive me"

"It makes no matter, I have a faith of my own."

One minute he's an agnostic about gods, the next he's pitting his faith against Mel's. Maybe the faith is in the institution that he's built his life around, and which makes him wear a chain around his neck every second of his life so he can never forget what he is? It's also interesting that the man who voluntarily binds his neck with a chain ends up strangling himself, but the chain is a symbolic cause rather than a literal one (imo).

[Prince of the North]

Very interesting thread! And, remember, just 'cause you're paranoid don't mean they ain't out to getcha