Marwyn

[Jon Targaryen]

The Grand Maester steeped in sorcery was around when Bloodraven was Hand.

[Anya, Vengeance Demon]

The Grand Maester steeped in sorcery was around when Bloodraven was Hand.

Ah. I take it he wasn't named in TSS, then?

[Ran]

The Fat Man,

I was suggesting not that they cover it up, destroy documents, etc. but rather that they just shrug their shoulders and that they're not going to waste time teaching a dead-end. If a student wants to fritter away time at it, by all means, but they're not going to earn a link in the subject.

As to the Grand Maester, it was mentioned in TSS. Personally, I find it hard to imagine that the Conclave would elect a sorcery-minded Grand Maester under normal circumstances, but I suppose that it may have been Bloodraven pushing them in that direction.

[Anya, Vengeance Demon]

The Fat Man,

I was suggesting not that they cover it up, destroy documents, etc. but rather that they just shrug their shoulders and that they're not going to waste time teaching a dead-end. If a student wants to fritter away time at it, by all means, but they're not going to earn a link in the subject.

I suppose they could do that. But how would that hurt the cause of magic any more than what they are already doing? Magic, as it is taught at the Citadel in any case, is discouraging to almost everybody who tries it. Offering the Valyrian steel link has traditionally done the conspiracy--if it exists--no real harm.

As to the Grand Maester, it was mentioned in TSS. Personally, I find it hard to imagine that the Conclave would elect a sorcery-minded Grand Maester under normal circumstances, but I suppose that it may have been Bloodraven pushing them in that direction.

I don't have a copy of TSS handy, but is it possible that the Grand Maester simply got to court and realized which way the wind was blowing, and starting taking up Bloodraven's interests to get more influence?

[Ran]

Offering the Valyrian steel link has traditionally done the conspiracy--if it exists--no real harm.

Maybe not, but I can't but imagine that if they treated it as a subject not worth their time to teach, that interest in magic would have faded just a touch more quickly. Instead, the Citadel is turning out the occasional maester who is vividly interested in magic (Marwyn, Qyburn), who retain that interest even after donning the chain, and thanks to the Citadel's own training in magical lore are better equipped to continue experimenting (successfuly, it seems, in the cases of Marwyn and Qyburn both).

To quote the relevant passage from TSS:

... and this new Grand Maester is as steeped in sorcery as he is.

To me it sounds like he was elected despite being "steeped in sorcery". Of course, I suppose we should consider the source (Septon Sefton); there may be some exaggeration involved.

[Anya, Vengeance Demon]

Maybe not, but I can't but imagine that if they treated it as a subject not worth their time to teach, that interest in magic would have faded just a touch more quickly. Instead, the Citadel is turning out the occasional maester who is vividly interested in magic (Marwyn, Qyburn), who retain that interest even after donning the chain, and thanks to the Citadel's own training in magical lore are better equipped to continue experimenting (successfuly, it seems, in the cases of Marwyn and Qyburn both).

Maybe. Or maybe Marwyn would have been fascinated anyway, and read up on documents in the Citadel's library without any prodding. It seems hard to believe that somebody really interested would be discouraged simply because they can't get course credit for extracurricular magic.

And in any case, the primary issue regarding whether or not magic works has everything to do with external factors (the fall of Valyria, the birth of dragons, or whatever). We're told time and again of magicians who are able to work spells now where they weren't before, not because they've become better trained but because magic is more powerful than it used to be. Thoros of Myr didn't get "better equipped" to give the breath of fire; he just was able to do it when he hadn't been able to before. In ordinary circumstances, it wouldn't matter how trained Marwyn was in magical lore; he'd be no more powerful than the Pureblood used to be. So if I'm an anti-magic archmaester, my primary interest is in dealing with this X factor; if I do my job right there, the Valyrian steel link won't matter a good god-damn.

[Ran]

OTOH, we see indications that people were doing magic after the Doom. Bloodraven and Shiera Seastar are both implied to have practiced magic, and nothing says it's wrong. It could, I suppose, be gross calumny. But we've other examples. Oberyn, for one, who knew how to use magic to thicken his poison -- something he must have learned in his days in the Free Cities or at the Ciatdel, some 20 years prior to Dany's dragon being born. The pyromancers, of course, were also still making their wildfire.

So, magic grew weaker, but people were still able to do it. Given this, why risk teaching maesters at all if there's an active anti-magic conspiracy? Let them study it on their own time, if they wish, but treat it as a worthless subject not worth a maester's time (or link). Many students are there to earn their collar, and aren't going to waste time while at the Citadel with subjects that can't help them and in which no maesters will assist them. And once they're maesters in their own right and assigned away to some castle, their access to texts related to magical lore declines to just about nil, making further study even more difficult.

This seems a lot more effective than keeping it on the curriculum, unless one supposes that the Citadel is outright _denying_ to themselves that it's possible to learn magic, even though they know this is, in fact, not true. Which would require not just a conspiracy, but a delusional one at that.

It's _unlikely_ you'll learn to perform magic, but it'd be even unlikelier if they didn't have maesters helpfully assisting you in reading up on magic.

[a_homeless_harpy]

Magic and dragons seem to intertwine - you can't have dragons without magic and your magic is feeble without dragons. Maybe Marwyn was shunned just because he couldn't prove that the dragons existed.

Sending an unbelieving maester to Danny would be tantamount of wasting her time (and the maester in question too), that's why imho Marwyn gave it a shrug.

Given this, why risk teaching maesters at all if there's an active anti-magic conspiracy? Let them study it on their own time, if they wish, but treat it as a worthless subject not worth a maester's time (or link). Many students are there to earn their collar, and aren't going to waste time while at the Citadel with subjects that can't help them and in which no maesters will assist them

Magic constituted a danger too, especially if used uncontrollably or without the right skills; I suppose most maesters liked them so they prefer to avoid magic. In order to appear as clever, they decided to write it off as something laughable, elusive at best, unworthy any serious attention and/or study. I would say that the maesters of the Citadel, portrayed in ASOIAF, were an ironic portrait of contemporary scientists. They trust only the knowledge they are good at. An odd ball, believing in monsters and paranormal stuff (which used to be called magic not so long ago) would be isolated like Marwyn and his small "retinue".

About the link of Valyrian steel in the Aemon's chain - if I find the mention of it, I'll write. I seem to remember reading about it but I've been unable to find where exactly, sorry.

[Anya, Vengeance Demon]

It's _unlikely_ you'll learn to perform magic, but it'd be even unlikelier if they didn't have maesters helpfully assisting you in reading up on magic.

There's an argument to be made there, but you can't show me somebody who would not have learned to perform magic but for the helpful assistance of a maester. Marwyn spent eight years abroad learning from the practitioners in the East. Qyburn's efforts seem to have been similarly unsanctioned; he was kicked out of the Citadel for practicing necromancy, after all. We know that the Valyrian steel link is unpopular in any case, and while Maester Luwin's statement that nobody ever succeeds in performing magic is not literally true, it certainly suggests that traditionally, studying theoretical magic in the Citadel has not aided anybody in performing practical magic. It seems to me that the Yorkshire Society of Magicians wouldn't threaten the maesters.

[shadowbinding shoe]

Qyburn weren't kicked out of the Citadel for practicing necromancy, he was kicked out for performing anatomical experiments on LIVE victims. This is highly unethical (instead of healing he's torturing and killing) and shows that the maesters have a moral backbone.

Now the fact that Marwyn is free to explore and teach magic in the Citadel, and is the archmaster on magic says that the rest of the maesters allow magic study to flourish in their halls. He wasn't kicked out and dechained. He wasn't derided by a magical archmaester that showed that magic didn't work.

[Blackstone]

At first, I swallowed the Anti-Magic Citadel conspiracy whole. The Dragons did fail and then die out, magic seems to have failed in the West as well. Marwynn's rendition of the facts seemed to fit my superficial analysis.

I'm not convinced any longer.

That the Citadel conspired against the Dragons is a theory solely advanced by Marwynn himself. As far as we know there is not another single shred of proof of this besides his word. Marwynn himself seems to have an anti-anti-magic agenda so he might not be the most trustworthy source on this. There are competing theories including Targaryen's themselves putting an end to the Dragons and also that their captivity in the dragon-pit made them less and less healthy.

Further, if the other arch-maesters were so anti-magic, why is it that Marwynn comes and goes as he pleases, spins his tales of the conspiracy of the Grey Sheep, why is it that they permit people to study magic, gain links in Valyrian Steel, play with glass candles, etc? Why didn't they take action even after Marwynn (presumably) lit a glass candle?

Moreover, Marwynn is completely, utterly wrong about Maester Aemon. He couldn't have been more wrong. Aemon "banished" himself to the wall so that he wouldn't be used against his brothers. The Citadel probably begged him to be Grand Maester, begged him not to go to the Wall.

Maesters have made no attempts on the lives of the Stark warglings, no attacks on the greenseers on the isles of faces, no moves against Mellisandre (Cressen's reasons were personal), no moves against the Pyromancers, no laws against shadowbinders, no attacks on Bloodmages like the Maegi of Cersei's tale, no attacks on Red Priests, Warlocks, etc.

Even that freak Qyburn isn't killed for his necromancy, he's dechained and banished for his torture of the living.

In the end, I can find not one single supportable "Anti-Magic" agenda action taken by any Maester of the Citadel. This must be the most pathetic conspiracy to ever have existed.

Without any actual evidence, without any real success, I have to conclude it doesn't exist.

[BrainFireBob]

Well, Blackstone-

Firstly, where do you get the idea that Marwyn himself is anti-magic?

Secondly, Marwyn seems to be the archmaester of magic, which would be where he gets his leeway. Students are merely discouraged from the subject.

Thirdly, where do you get the Citadel begging him?

Fourthly, who at the Citadel knows of the Stark warglings? The greenseers segregate themselves, Melisandre isn't a target there's been much opportunity to strike at, and the pyromancers naturally decreased in influence as magic faded, no need to help along the process.

Moreover, the maesters do not make the laws, so passing laws against bloodmages et al isn't even a valid point.

[Ran]

BrainFireBob,

Blackstone says Marwyn is "anti-anti-magic" -- as in, pro-magic, and opposed to anyone who is against magic.

I think Blackstone's pointed out something that should be repeated: there is no actual evidence. We have Marwyn's claim, and everything he cites is circumstancial at best.

[Blackstone]

The Maesters are extremely influential. The Grand Maester sits on the Great Council where the laws are forumlated. If the Citadel wanted to outlaw Bloodmagic, or the Isle of Face's Greenseers or Necromancy, they would only need to speak up on the subject.

The fact that Marwynn is the Arch-Maester of Magic and is free to do as he pleases, is exactly my point. If the Citadel was truly anti-magic, then I doubt they'd permit Marwynn to do as he willed, or the post of a Valyrian Steel Arch-Maester to even exist. Of course the Citadel discourages students from learning magic, it's not a practical subject after all. But they permit people who are interested to study it, study and learn what they can and even dabble at it, as part of their initiation ritual.

Marwynn is just a crank.

[wvlr]

Lets try to look at this logically.

First lets make at least a few logical assumptions:

1. Any Maester that has a VS link would not be likely to be a member of this inner Anti-Magic Maester group. (The fact that they showed enough interest in the subject to get a link would automatically get a person excluded.)

2. Even those that were in the Group would not be likely to "discuss" the subject with any outside person.

3. Few regular Maesters would be likely to be a part of this group. Only the ones that had had shown significant acceptance of the "Anit-magic" doctrine and then only those that it was necessary to "trust" for a special mission.

4. How many POVs of non-VS link bearing Maesters have we had talking to other non-VS link bearing Maesters? - None that I can remember.

So this is truely only the first "Opportunity" that has come up for us to see a clue in that direction.

But What about Maester Marwin? What do we know about him?:

1. His startments about Maester Aemon seem a little distorted if not blatently false - but they do not really seem to be intentional lies. They seem more in the relm of opinionated blustering.

2. Since he and a couple others have actually earned VS links - then his "warning" to Sam also seems to be a bit of exageration. Obviously the "Gray Sheep" do not routinely kill trainees that show any interest in magic.

3. His use of the term "Grey Sheep" also shows significant contempt for them.

4. If he is not "in on" the Anti-magic agenda how would he have found out? He has a VS link - they surely would not tell him!

5. Walgrave is sick and senile maybe he recently "spilled the beans".

or my favorite:

6. He just recently lit the "candle" that lets him look into people's minds - Being a Maester at the Citadel I would think that the Arch-Maesters might be one of the first places that he "experimented" on.

7. If he had known about the "Plot" a long time - it would be less likely to stir the emotions of what otherwise seems to be a very levelheaded person. Old knowledge has less bite than something relatively newly discovered.

So unfortunately we just do not have enough information. It may be true or it may be false. We only have one clue pointing in that direction at this time but that is the only "opportunity" that we have had as well.

It would be much easier if we were not getting some obvious "Bias" in this POV but wouldn't it be natural for him to be a little "tweaked" after all this time with the Citadel for him to be finding out this little tidbit?

Personally I like this little Plot and hope that it is true but we definately need a little more evidence before we call it a certianty. Maybe ADwD will give us some more - possibly from Sam as anything that we hear from Marwin will still have the problem of being only one source.

[Blackstone]

Or, let me propose that Marwynn is the one with the agenda.

He's created his own little cult of personality with Alleras, notPate, Lazy Leo and now Sam. What better way to keep Sam from spilling the beans to anyone else than to make the coward fearful of the other maesters.

[Maia]

Or, let me propose that Marwynn is the one with the agenda.

Oh, he definitely has an agenda, but it isn't very clear what it could be.

Anyway, I'd say that lack of retaliation from the maesters against the scattered magic users doesn't mean much. Clearly, it is some time since magic was last considered a serious threat and maesters came to complacently believe some of their own propaganda about it's non-existence. Even maester Luwin, who had interest in magic as a youth didn't recognize Stark children's bond with their direwolves as magic. There is no evidence that there is anything unambiguously magical about the Isle of Faces, beyond the old legends. As to people like gran Westerling, maesters would see them as just charlatans and horse-leaches. Alchemists were reduced to just a couple of tricks that held them over water. Basically, there was no reason for the Citadel to start a terror campaign against would-be mages. On the contrary, as per Tyrion's advice to Cersei it would only demonstrate the world that there was something real about magic.

About Melisandre, IMHO there just wasn't much in way of information and opportunity. After all, she was very good at eliminating spies. I dare say that if the Citadel had accurate information about her, they'd have tried something. We will see how they react once they'd find themselves unable to dismiss evidence of rising magic.

I would also like to point out that they have an additional reason to allow study of magic at the Citadel - know your enemy. Clearly, this aspect has been forgotten and neglected lately, but that was likely the reason why they created and kept the Chair of Magic.

[Blackstone]

I'll accept that chasing down tattered hedge wizards and blood mages might be counter productive. But, my larger point remains intact I believe.

Marwynn alleges that the Citadel is engaged in a multi-generational conspiracy to destroy magic. Marwynn's two items of evidence are extremely weak. Other more plausible explanations for the demise of the Dragons exist. Marwynn was completely and utterly wrong about Aemon's tour of duty on the Wall.

Outside of Marwynn's completely unreliable testimony, no one can point to any other conspiratorial action taken by the Citadel that would be consistent with the aims of their supposed conspiracy. In contrast, there is much evidence -- Marwynn's position, privilege and freedom to operate chief among them -- that would be inconsistent with the aims that Marwynn subscribes to them.

[Maia]

Other more plausible explanations for the demise of the Dragons exist.

Well, since we know so little about dragons, it is difficult to say whether those other explanations are plausible.

Marwynn was completely and utterly wrong about Aemon's tour of duty on the Wall.

I don't recall what he said about that. But it may not have been Aemon's first choice to go serve his brother Daeron the Drunken. It is quite possible that he wanted to stay at the Citadel, research and become an archmaester, but the Citadel hierarchy have thwarted him.

Re: Marwyn - magic was so weak and return of the dragons so unlikely that they could afford to keep him on as a figure of ridicule. Traditions are funny things - in RL a lot of antiquated and irrelevant offices linger for decades and centuries - including chairs at the universities.

[Ran]

Marwyn suggests that Aemon was at the Wall because the Citadel wanted him away from them, whereas Aemon says he was on the Wall because, well, he swore vows to get away from being used against his brother.

Unless Aemon is really eliding and lying about things, Marwyn at the very best has the situation completely wrong, and at worst is actively passing around a false conspiracy theory, re: Aemon.