Robb's stupid moves

[white cloak]

could Robb have made really only 4 stupid moves.

1. he put Roose Bolton in charge of an army. he could've easily avoided that betrayel if he'd put the army under anybody elses command. he should've seen the betrayel possibilty from the histiry between the Starks and the Boltons

2. not being specific with Edmure about his plans. if edmure had known that Robb wanted Tywin to come West things would have turned out differently.

3. accepting Walter Frey's proposal. he knew the man was a schemy person. he, as it has already been mentioned, should have seized his castle and stripped him of his lands and given the castle to a more loyal bannermen.

4. if he lived through the red wedding he shouldn't have turned north. his remaining bannermen could have easily gotten rid of the ironborn after they were subjected to a harsh winter and since most of them would be gone when Balon died

[Jon Targaryen]

I agree with 1-3, 1 with some reservation. 4 he had to do or lose his northmen. 1, it is impossible to determine with the information we are given if Roose was suspected of being disloyal and/or an opportunist. If unknown, it's really not Robb's fault. If suspected and/or known, it was.

[Ser Spidey]

could Robb have made really only 4 stupid moves.

1. he put Roose Bolton in charge of an army. he could've easily avoided that betrayel if he'd put the army under anybody elses command

2. not being specific with Edmure about his plans. if edmure had known that Robb wanted Tywin to come West things would have turned out differently.

3. accepting Walter Frey's proposal. he knew the man was a schemy person. he, as it has already been mentioned, should have seized his castle and stripped him of his lands and given the castle to a more loyal bannermen.

4. if he lived through the red wedding he shouldn't have turned north. his remaining bannermen could have easily gotten rid of the ironborn after they were subjected to a harsh winter and since most of them would be gone when Balon died

First, I can't see why you posted this topic in AFFC.

Second, how the hell could he have known that Bolton, and not say Glover or Big Jon, would betray him?

Third, he had to accept Frey's demands. If he tried to seize the twins, he would have lost at least a week, and lost 4k soldiers, while he gained the same amount by accepting late lord's proposal. His main mistake was not sticking to this agreement.

Fourth, he had to go north, because he was a king without a kingdom, and without a home. He was probably planning to re-establish a greater army there, while the Lannisters would be crushing themselves against moat Caillin.

I do accept your second arument as a Robb's mistake, though.

What I would like to know is, does any of you have an idea about how could Robb have avoided the Karstark incident? Punish Cat? Kill Jaime?

ETA: Topic moved to General.

[dornish prince]

robb never learned the lesson that all of us should learn right from the jump. DTA...don't trust anyone. take it from an observer of the human condition, if any of ya'll are passing out trust to anyone then you are fucking up

hell, most of the time we can't even trust ourselves.

[suffix]

Well personaly my answer is "who cares" on whatever Robb did or didnt

Yea not a very nice answer ill work on that

[dornish prince]

Well personaly my answer is "who cares" on whatever Robb did or didnt

Yea not a very nice answer ill work on that

no you won't

[the silent speaker]

While ordinarily I would agree with #2, both Blackfish and Edmure himself concur that Robb was specific enough with his orders to preclude Edmure from doing exactly what Edmure did. I consider the fact that Edmure didn't even try to argue, "What are you talking about? You said hold Riverrun, and I did hold Riverrun -- do you see any Lannister flags?" a highly significant point as to whether Robb made a mistake in his orders even though I might well ask GRRM why Edmure didn't so argue.

[Lady Blackfish]

#2 is squarely grey area, that's why. As I see it, it doesn't make Edmure especially idiotic to have done what he did (though a wiser man maybe wouldn't have), nor would it have made Robb especially paranoid to specify further than he had (as a more experienced man well may have). Once it was done and the consequences known, Robb's intentions weren't obscure enough to justify further argument from Edmure. The fact remains that had Robb specified further, he could've avoided some problems. And of course the fact remains that someone "had" to take the fall, and nobody's going to blame the king. Though even at that Robb didn't chastise Edmure publically, quite the opposite to save face of course.

[Ser Spidey]

The fact remains that had Robb specified further, he could've avoided some problems.

And he would lose nothing if he did it. He could have known sometihg about Edmure's personality after all. If he left him in charge of Riverrun, it means Edmure was worthy enough to know about Robb's plans.

[Jon of the Hudson]

Don't forget

5. Don't count on a Greyjoy. Maybe Balon attacks the North while Robb holds Theon, maybe not, but without Theon sacking Winterfell, there's no "dead" Bran and Rickon, no comfort from Jeyne Westerling, and no insult to Walder Frey.

I'm not saying that Theon's attack on Winterfell was foreseeable. But Robb could have understood that the proposed alliance was far from certain, and that Theon's persuasiveness with his father would be minimal. Balon had already launched one rebellion out of general cantankerousness, and his advisers from the Riverland's aristocracy were familiar with the Iron Islander's culture. In the circumstances, continuing to hold the Greyjoy hostage would be a prudent measure.

[BlueLion70]

could Robb have made really only 4 stupid moves.

1. he put Roose Bolton in charge of an army. he could've easily avoided that betrayel if he'd put the army under anybody elses command

2. not being specific with Edmure about his plans. if edmure had known that Robb wanted Tywin to come West things would have turned out differently.

3. accepting Walter Frey's proposal. he knew the man was a schemy person. he, as it has already been mentioned, should have seized his castle and stripped him of his lands and given the castle to a more loyal bannermen.

4. if he lived through the red wedding he shouldn't have turned north. his remaining bannermen could have easily gotten rid of the ironborn after they were subjected to a harsh winter and since most of them would be gone when Balon died

I beg to differ. Roose Bolton was in charge of one of Robb's armies before they even recruited the Freys in AGOT. The Boltons are high-ranking bannermen to the Starks and Roose an acomplished general regardless of what else he is. He only betrayed Robb because he could see the hopelessness of Robb's cause after the North was lost, and the Karstarks and Freys deserted. He's an oler man, wiser than a young boy and he knows when to bend the knee.

That was not Robb's fault. He left Edmure with orders to hold Riverrun. Granted, if he had been more forthcoming with his plan Edmure wouldn't have fucked it up but the king is not obligated to share the intricacies (sp?) of his plans with his bannermen. Edmure was too hungry for glory and he disobeyed the orders that Robb had given him.

Siezed the castle how? He would have had to siege it and attack the Freys to do that, and the Twins is an absurdly defensible position, not to mention that Robb would be at the mercies of his enemies while he was conducting the siege. I blame this one on Edmure too; if he had been only slightly more shallow he would have refused to marry Roslin without seeing her first, and therefore they would not have gone to the Twins at all for the Red Wedding.

If he lived through the Red Wedding? What does that mean, the entire wedding was a carefully planned assassination of him. He had to go north to protect his own lands, or what kind of King would he be? As many characters said, what is a king without a kingdom?

[The Prince]

1. he put Roose Bolton in charge of an army. he could've easily avoided that betrayel if he'd put the army under anybody elses command

How could he possibly know Roose was going to betray him? Is he psychic now? There is a strong amount of evidence to suggest that Roose only turned on Robb because it looked like Robb was going to lose the war, had already lost the North, etc. Furthermore, Roose was probably the best suited towards being second in command, and it was Catelyn who led Robb towards picking him over his original (somewhat stupid) choice of Greatjon.

2. not being specific with Edmure about his plans. if edmure had known that Robb wanted Tywin to come West things would have turned out differently.

Agreed.

3. accepting Walter Frey's proposal. he knew the man was a schemy person. he, as it has already been mentioned, should have seized his castle and stripped him of his lands and given the castle to a more loyal bannermen.

First of all, Walder Frey was not one of Robb's bannermen. Robb did not have the right to strip him of anything. Frey's allegiance was to Riverrun, not Winterfell. Destroying one of the Tully's most powerful sworn lords would have weakened the riverlands, and it would also have taken a large number of men and quite a bit of time to take The Twins. If I remember correctly, Robb wanted to relieve Edmure and Hoster, who were then being besieged by Jaime. Engaging in battle would not only have substantially weakened his own force, but it also might have ended up taking far too much time. That is besides the fact that attacking another Lord's bannerman is practically a declaration of war...

4. if he lived through the red wedding he shouldn't have turned north. his remaining bannermen could have easily gotten rid of the ironborn after they were subjected to a harsh winter and since most of them would be gone when Balon died

His remaining bannermen, or the bulk of them and their knights/soldiers were with Robb. The entire reason Robb was returning was because the North could not defend itself with the vast majority of its fighting force warring in a different part of Westeros. As for Winter...don't forget that seasons in ASOIAF last years and years. And lastly, how could he have known Balon would die?

[Skyrazer]

IMO the only real stupid thing he did was he stuck his dick into the Westerling girl and then went and married her. He should have did a Robert and left her to mother a bastard (or abort through moontea). I know it's not exactly honorable or decent behavior, but when it's the allegiance of a house as large and prominent as the Freys as well the whole war at stake, you just gotta ditch your self-honor for a bit of common sense.

[Errant Bard]

That was not Robb's fault. He left Edmure with orders to hold Riverrun. [...] Edmure was too hungry for glory and he disobeyed the orders that Robb had given him.

In the absence of specific orders, it's down to the general as to what he does with his troops. I remind you that Robb intended to fool Tywin, of all people, and you expect Edmure to see through the scheme with basically the same set of information as him?

No Edmure didn't break any order, he held Riverrrun and tried to win a victory for his side, because Robb didn't find it useful to tell him about a strategy highly dependant on him.

Aside from that, what other people said:

1. He couldn't know that he would lose badly enough to make his bannermen rebel, and whether Roose was in charge or not doesn't change anything in the end. Roose didn't betray because he was in charge of an army, he would have done it even if he was not given any responsibilities, he would even have done it faster, arguably, considering the slight to his house.

3. If you reread the passage, he didn't have a choice. Walder gave him the option to cross fast, without any loss, while getting the strength of the Freys behind him, and his other choice was to risk annihilation by storming the walls. Had he stormed the walls, he would have lost the war right there and then, the Lannisters would have crushed the few remnants of his army in the field and his bannermen would have rebelled all the same had he not seen the hopelessness of fighting like that.

4. He didn't live through the red wedding so moot point. On another note, if Aegon had really burst in Tyrion's chamber while juggling lemon pies, it would have been a mistake to throw one at Cersei.

[Ser Spidey]

Nice to see TP and EB agree with me.

Still, no-one seems to have any idea about avoiding the Karstark incident.

[shadowbinding shoe]

1. This is definitely a mistake (that Catelyn shares with him). The Boltons are renowned for their rivalry with house Stark as recent as a few hundreds of years in the past. They have preserved skins of captured Starks. And a careful rereading of the books will show that Roose was sending loyal Stark bannermen to their deaths from the start. His strategy at the battle against Tywin is a good example of this (tiring his troops to no purpose before the battle and then sending the troops of the other bannermen to the forefront while keeping his own men back)

If Robb chose Karstark instead he would have erased two mistakes in one go. He would have had a loyal experienced man commanding his troops and he wouldn't have him near Jaime making trouble.

2. Yep. Another big mistake.

3. I think he did leave some of his troops in Frey's castle after they made their agreement. When Edmure went to battle he recalled them. That, unlike no. 2 is a mistake Edmure makes but wouldn't have happened either if Edmure knew not to go to battle.

4. I don't know about this but as Jon o' Hudson says he shouldn't have given up his hostage to Balon. He could have used letters to make the agreement or sent someone else.

[Ender]

Well, I had written out more-detailed replies, but I think they mostly amount to the same thing:

Based on the assumptions that Robb was working off, he was a brilliant commander. Had things fallen his way, he was in position to strike at the heart of Lannister power. Yet, he had little ability to see beyond the battles and the map and the movement of troops. He could not see that despite being the shrewd, cautious commander he needed for his eastern host, Roose was extremely ambitious politically. He could not see that while Edmure had the power to command the Riverlords, he was too hungry for glory and the love of his people to simply follow a barebones command like "Hold Riverrun." He could not see that while a marriage contract was, to him, a key to the gates of The Twins enabling him to cross the Green Fork, that Walder Frey was looking to place his house in a position of power and influence. The Game of Thrones is more than just about scheming and backstabbing. It's about understanding what drives an individual in a position of power and using that to your advantage. That, IMO, is at the heart of most of Robb's failures.

As for heading North after the Red Wedding, I don't see how Robb had a choice. Philosophical reasons for the King of the North needing to hold the North aside, he couldn't let himself be squeezed by the combined might of Lannister and Tyrell in the south and the Ironborn at the Neck. He was stuck on land that had been ravaged by war with no access to his own resources and with a non-professional army of peasant levies, and lords and landholders who had their own peasants, lands, and families to look after in the coming winter. If he continued to stand in open rebellion against the Iron Throne after retaking the North, at least at the Neck he could hold off the southern armies with a lesser force, and the winter would no doubt have favored their defense.

[a_homeless_harpy]

The Game of Thrones is more than just about scheming and backstabbing. It's about understanding what drives an individual in a position of power and using that to your advantage. That, IMO, is at the heart of most of Robb's failures.

Give the guy some break; he was just sixteen (and honestly, tell me how prudent/wise/intelligent/cunning were you at sixteen?) he did his best but, in given circumstances, it was a poor best. The chivalry was his doom, as it was Rhaegar's.

[shadowbinding shoe]

Give the guy some break; he was just sixteen (and honestly, tell me how prudent/wise/intelligent/cunning were you at sixteen?) he did his best but, in given circumstances, it was a poor best. The chivalry was his doom, as it was Rhaegar's.

As Cercei told Ned, in the GoT, you either win or die. If he wasn't up to the task, he should have stayed with mommy and the little bros at home.

And how did Rheagar chivalry doom him? It was his sword hand, dear lady, that failed him.

[shadowbinding shoe]

double post