GRRM ADwD Jan 2 update ADWD SPOILERS

[The Scabbard Of the Morning]

AA and NN are not some obscure legend, we didn't even hear about it from Melissandre, we heard it from Salador Saan.

[Ran]

I'm not questioning that Melisandre isn't a true red priestess. I believe she is. I'm just noting that she may be very far off the mainstream of the R'hllorian religion, which would tend to contribute to the idea that she's a zealot.

ETA: One thing I've always wanted to see is Thoros's views on Melisandre. Does he know of her from his days in the Free Cities? Was she a known quantity? What would he say if told of her various deeds in Westeros?

[wvlr]

Ok maybe Melisandre is not a true red priest but does not prove that the legends about Azor Ahai are Melisandre's lies.

NB Maester Ammon knows about the Lightbringer. It does not say that he believes it. But he has heard about it. There is no way of saying that Azor Ahai and Nissa Nissa are not mainstream-red-pries dogma's

Who is saying that they are lies? I am saying that Mel will play Nissa Nissa's part in this recreation of "Lightbringer". She will sacrifice herself to finish the creation of the new "Lightbringer".

[Cruella_Da_Oz]

IIRC burning was quite a common execution in MA/Renaissance. Not that it is an excuse to burn babies. It was considered a good execution for women in particular because unlike with quartering it didn't involve nudity. Mance being burned doesn't seem out of proportion for medieval society though.

[Guest Other-in-law]

We have to be careful about conflating the legend of Azor Ahai, magical practices, and the R'hllorian religion. There's no evidence that Azor Ahai is an integral figure in R'hllorian belief. In fact, the oldest forms of the story and prophecies related to him appear to be Valyrian, and the Valyrians are not in fact R'hllorians (they had multiple gods). Thoros of Myr, another red priest, never refers to him.

What exactly are the oldest prophecies and stories that indicate Azor Ahai was Valyrian? I completely missed that. I know there was some speculation that the original Lightbringer was a sort of proto-Valyrian steel, but I didn't realise there was anything more concrete.

[Ran]

No, the oldest versions of the story that we know of are apparently Valyrian (hence the whole issue of translating "the prince who was promised"). I did not mean to indicate that Azor Ahai was himself Valyrian.

Though, yes, I am suspicious that he is at least proto-Valyrian.

[Guest Other-in-law]

No, the oldest versions of the story that we know of are apparently Valyrian (hence the whole issue of translating "the prince who was promised"). I did not mean to indicate that Azor Ahai was himself Valyrian.

Oh, I understood that to be a matter of two separate prophecies in different cultures (which may refer to the same thing); 'The Dragon who was promised' and 'Azor Ahai reborn'. I didn't think the Dragon who was promised was explicitly about Azor Ahai, or that it was necessarily older than Ashai'i versions.

Mel mentioned '5,000 years ago' for a prophecy date at one point, but I assumed that was a Rh'llorian prophecy rather than a Valyrian one. It's hard to unravel the different skeins of prophecy when the characters consider them to be the same thing.

[Happy Ent]

Oh, I understood that to be a matter of two separate prophecies in different cultures (which may refer to the same thing); 'The Dragon who was promised' and 'Azor Ahai reborn'.

True. For example, the Children of the Forest spoke of the Ash which was Augured (AwwA), requiring the ritualistic spilling of pollen into salt (probably, the Sea) and the burning of the Kingswood when the last red leaf falls from a Weirwood. The rest of the translation is unclear, it involves the passage [...] thrice the great branch must be trust into [...] and then something about schoolgirls from Yi Ti.

[Elrick]

I was responding to "burning people is always wrong" and "I think burning someone alive is by far more vile than simply killing someone. If they did treason simply hanging suffices burning someone alive is torture and cruel and something no 'good' person would do."

By this definition Dany is not a good person.

In my opinion I don't care for Dany very much what she views as justice is simple vengence. Even the guys she crucifies is vengence not justice she did it out of anger not to mention that it showed a certian lack of humaneness on her part of course this ironically made her more human in my mind. Ned would have beheaded them before hearing their last words while Dany doesn't even bother to hear what they say before she kills them neither does Mel.

However in Dany's defense she wasn't raised in the old way nor would she understand it very well. She seems to think that because she is the blood of the dragon she has the right to go and have an entire city sacked and to rule how she sees fit. Either way I don't think even Dany would consider burning a child alive as good. Of course she may very well do this to Edric Storm due to him being Roberts blood. Afterall she hates the Usurper and probably would feel a sense of 'justice' by having Edric murdered.

[Soul on Ice and Fire]

ETA: One thing I've always wanted to see is Thoros's views on Melisandre. Does he know of her from his days in the Free Cities? Was she a known quantity? What would he say if told of her various deeds in Westeros?

Another question: Why are their apparent magical powers so different? Thoros excels at starting small fires and bringing people back to like. Mel makes shadowbabies and sensing threats to herself. Seems odd that they are so dissimilar.

[Anya, Vengeance Demon]

While we're asking slightly irrelevant questions, is it just me or is there a lot of overlap between shadowbinding and bloodmagic? Mirri Maz Duur says she knows a spell from a bloodmage, but it involved her chanting to a bunch of dancing shadows. Melisandre is a shadowbinder, but talks about the power of king's blood. I've been thinking that the common factor is that both disciplines come from Valyria; all Valyrian magic is rooted in blood or fire, according to Marwyn (who knows what he's about at least on this topic), and that seems to cover at least Melisandre's explanation of shadowbinding. How significant it would be that Melisandre is propogated a Valyrian prophecy while performing Valyrian sorcery, I don't know exactly.

[Guest Other-in-law]

I've been thinking that the common factor is that both disciplines come from Valyria; all Valyrian magic is rooted in blood or fire, according to Marwyn (who knows what he's about at least on this topic), and that seems to cover at least Melisandre's explanation of shadowbinding. How significant it would be that Melisandre is propogated a Valyrian prophecy while performing Valyrian sorcery, I don't know exactly.

I don't think that follows at all. Mel could know other forms of magic besides shadowbinding. What indications do we have that any Valyrians ever did Shadowbinding? There have been references to Valyrian 'Spellsingers' (which puts me in mind of the song of Ice and Fire) and Marwyn's comment about Blood and Fire, but Shadows? I thing that school originated with the Asshai'i or the Shadowlanders.

Beric's flaming sword seems to be the product of Blood and Fire magic (he sliced his hand to produce flame from his own blood, apparently). But the only definite examples of shadowbinding that we've seen were MMD's dancing tent shadows (whose power source is not really known to us) and Mel's shadowbabies, which were presumably powered by Stannis' semen (or the virility or lifesource within).

If I had to guess, I'd maybe make a connection between shadow magic and the repressed desires of the id (maybe there's a batter way of phrasing that); Stannis may have loved Renly in some ways, but part of him wanted to see his brother die, whether he would openly admit it to himself or not. But then, maybe that's totally wrong; Mel seemed to be confident that she could make a shadowbaby with Davos which would serve Stannis' agenda despite a lack of hatred toward Renly or Penrose on Davos' part. Maybe she would have been able to steer it herself, as one of it's 'parents'?

[Guest Other-in-law]

HE,

The rest of the translation is unclear, it involves the passage [...] thrice the great branch must be trust into [...] and then something about schoolgirls from Yi Ti.

Such scandalous forgeries. No wonder the Entwives left!

[The Wolf Maid]

While we're asking slightly irrelevant questions, is it just me or is there a lot of overlap between shadowbinding and bloodmagic? Mirri Maz Duur says she knows a spell from a bloodmage, but it involved her chanting to a bunch of dancing shadows. Melisandre is a shadowbinder, but talks about the power of king's blood.

Perhaps its possible to combine the two skills, or that Mel and MMD can do both do shadowbinding and bloodmagic. Like O-i-L, i'm more inclined to think that blood magic came from Valyria but not shadowbinding.

If I had to guess, I'd maybe make a connection between shadow magic and the repressed desires of the id (maybe there's a batter way of phrasing that); Stannis may have loved Renly in some ways, but part of him wanted to see his brother die, whether he would openly admit it to himself or not. But then, maybe that's totally wrong; Mel seemed to be confident that she could make a shadowbaby with Davos which would serve Stannis' agenda despite a lack of hatred toward Renly or Penrose on Davos' part. Maybe she would have been able to steer it herself, as one of it's 'parents'?

I'm more inclined to believe in the latter theory (steering the shadow babies), because in the former theory, if we take into account MMD, it would mean Dany wanted her son dead. :/ (of course, MMD was performing what seems to be an different spell from Mel so I could be wrong).

[TrackerNeil]

More on Stannis.

First, let me say that although Stannis is one of my favored characters, I think he is quite the *sshole. He's peevish, demanding and tactless, and he can't get along with people. That makes him an awful candidate for kingship.

That being said, I find Stannis much more of a hero than, say, Robb Stark or Danaerys Targaryen. Robb and Dany mean well but they also clearly get quite a charge out of the adulation they receive; in fact, I think some of the things they did were directly motivated by that adulation. Robb takes his crown because a bunch of lords shout out his name, without thinking about what he's getting into. Danaerys runs around freeing slaves because she thinks the freedmen are her children, without really considering how she'll feed them, care for them, etc. In addition, both Robb and Dany have a tendency to put their own needs and passions ahead of the common good they're supposed to serve. Danaerys orders the Wise Masters nailed up on posts because they angered her, but she never considers that doing so will alienate the power base of the city she hopes to rule. Robb throws away the Frey alliance because he has sex with the Westerling girl, deeming that his honor (and hers) is more important than protecting the people of the Trident and the North. I know they weren't bad people, but those actions aren't very heroic.

Stannis, on the other hand, doesn't derive much personal satisfaction from his successes, and he doesn't revel in the praise of others; in fact, he contemptuously dismisses such praise. Not only does he not crave the glory of kingship but he knows full well it will destroy him. He even agrees to do things that will make him incredibly unpopular (like sacrificing Edric Storm) in order to do the job he sees as his. And isn't doing your duty, even when you don't want to, what being a hero is about? Jon Snow faces similar challenges and he sees them through even though he hates them. So I guess I see him as a hero too.

Now, I'm not defending the decision to sacrifice Edric Storm; in fact, I think Davos saved Stannis from a dreadful mistake. However, I think that the fact that Stannis was willing to do even something so horrific, something he did not want to do, in the pursuit of his job says that, if nothing else, the man knows his duty.