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The Jon's Parentage Re-Read


Jon Targaryen

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One of the first members of the NW we meet is (spelling probably wrong) Weymar Royce, the youngest son of his noble family. The NW would provide experiences and challenges that might appeal to those who don't want to live in their older brothers' shadows.

But then there are several branches of House Royce, meaning lots of people to continue the family. Do we even know how far away from inheritance Waymar was? I'm betting he wasn't second in line to inherit, and the family was nowhere near extinction as the Starks were at the time Benjen joined the NW.

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If Benjen doesn't make another appearance in the last three (??+??) books in can be assumed that GRRM included him in the book as a pathway for Jon to come to the Wall. It was after talking to Benjen, and just having an uncle in NW, that Jon decided that that is what he wanted to do. There doesn't have to be a backstory for Benjen going to the wall.

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Stratonice,

I don't know the specifics of when most of the present brothers of the NW joined or why. More than Thorne and Rykker are likely to have joined at some point around the time of the rebellion. Why would Tywin have denied commoners the possibility of joining when he was sending men there anyway?

If Tywin would have bothered to send those men-at-arms and guardsmen to the NW who fought at the Sack of King's Landing -- if they were captured at all and not killed out of hand -- the NW wouldn't have the manpower problems it obviously has. We know of two people who were sent there by Tywin. Two noble born knights who probably weren't killed out of hand because of their status only. We also know most of the knights of the NW. There are pretty few. So I just don't see all these Targaryen loyalists who were sent there after or during the war.

I have given examples of why one of them could have been suspected of knowing something or at least enough to be able to figure it out. Being related to one of the people that actually were at the ToJ or Starfall is one example.

But that's wild, wild speculation. We don't know of any link between anybody at the Wall and the Tower of Joy.

And I never said he didn't have his doubt about other people too.

So what did he do about it? He "sacrificed" his brother to spy on some guys in the NW but what did Ned do about the hundreds of people who may have had some peripheral knowledge about Jon's identity? Did he spy on Varys? Did Ned spy on Robert? Did he spy on Selmy or Jaime? Did he spy on the Daynes or their servants? Did he hire somebody to keep an eye on Wylla, so that she doesn't give something away inadvertly? Did he spy on the men in his army who went with him to SE and perhaps further?

Somebody who apparently thinks that sending his only living brother, a boy of 16 or 17, to the NW and letting him make a lifelong commitment would be a reasonable and measured response to a remote possibility that somebody at the Wall knows something about Jon, why hasn't somebody like that hired a hundred more spies to keep an eye on everybody who may have some knowledge or may figure something out eventually about Jon?

It doesn't add up to me. There is no evidence at all that there is anybody at the Wall who knows something about the Tower of Joy. There is no evidence that Ned suspected anybody there of knowing something about the Tower of Joy.

And even if there were, I certainly still don't see Ned sending his brother to the Wall to join the NW as response. This doesn't make sense. He would have gone himself or sent somebody if he wanted to learn if somebody has knowledge about the Tower of Joy and not sent his baby brother to make a lifeflong commitment on some wild hunch. Besides, Benjen may well be ignorant about who Jon is in the first place.

The fact that Ned don't seem particularly suspicous in AGoT is an argument against the possibility that he or Benjen may have been fifteen years ago?

It's a matter of probabilities. When he was suspicious fifteen years ago there was some chance that he would still be today. He isn't though. So this adds another requirement for your theory to work, which makes it more unlikely.

I do understand why taking Jon to court could be dangerous if R+L=J. What I don't understand is why it's so very unlikely that someone from KL who may have had a clue of some kind already might start wondering about Jon and where he came from.

Who, please? Who, to Ned's knowledge, has been sent to the NW during the war who would have comparable political and/or personal interest in the matter and/or knowledge about Ned and Lyanna and Rhaegar to what Varys, Robert, Selmy, Jaime, Tywin, Doran etc have? Who is interested in the origins of Ned's bastard in the NW? Who knows Ned or Lyanna or Rhaegar well to make some dangerous deductions?

The same logic should apply, if he's kept out of sight no one thinks much about him which holds true wrt the Court, but being raised in Winterfell is about as centrally placed as you can be in the North so he's a lot more "visible" to the NW, especially considering the bond between the Starks and the NW.

Are you serious? Do you really think that the men of the NW cared much about Ned having a bastard at Winterfell? Did they even know he had one? ;) The NW isn't overly interested in the affairs of the realm. When they don't have a personal connection, I imagine they could hardly have cared less about who Jon's mother was. How many people at the Wall have actually pried into Jon's origins? Exactly.

First of all, the NW don't exactly seem to have been overrun with wildling attacks in the last generation or so (at least before the Others came back) so I think you're overstating how much more extensive the military duties of the NW is compared to the military duties of the commander of a noble house.

I think I've understated the case, actually. How much military duty did Ned have in the last fifteen years? There was one war and nothing else we know of. A season of planning with a few battles. Why do you think Robert has gone too fat and yearned for the life of a sellsword? Why are tourneys so important to hone ones skill at arms? Because real combat can be hard to come by if there is no war. When the realm is at peace there is not much to do in the way of real fighting for a noble. In contrast, Benjen could expect combat whenever he ranged beyond the Wall.

But there are other military organizations. How about the Gold Cloaks? Even the KG would make a lot more sense.

The Kingsguard is an order of _knighthood_. Benjen was no knight.

The Gold Cloaks? You aren't serious, or? Breaking up drunks, settling domestic disputes, trade matters, policing the streets etc Is that the kind of glory, excitement and service Benjen was likely to yearn for at 16 years? To become a common guard a thousand miles away from what he knew of the world, the north and the cold and the wild?

I don't really think being named to the KG and taking the black can be compared in any meaningful sense. Sure, they both give up their right to inherit and father children but being named to the KG is considered the greatest honour you could possibly be offered as a knight, and while the Starks might think joining the NW is honourable even they wouldn't call it an honour.

The Kingsguard is the supreme military order for knights while the NW is probably the supreme military order for northmen, in particular the Starks. So their respective functions can certainly be compared meaningfully on this dimension.

Now, I don't claim that even a Stark would feel as honored by becoming a member of the NW as a knight would feel honored by becoming a member of the Kingsguard. The Kingsguard is obviously a more elite military order and is much more associated with celebrity and glory as Maia rightly indicates. But the principle of being willing to give up something (family, lands) for the pursuit of something one values more (honorable service in a military order, service in a scholarly order in the case of the Maesters) is still the same.

I can certainly see that the chance to serve in the NW would trump the chance to have a family for some people. Indeed, isn't this the reason why people have joined the NW for millenniums? Isn't it the reason why Jon joined and Waymar Royce joined? Why should Ben have been any different? Because Waymar Royce had three trueborn people between himself and Runestone while Benjen had two trueborn ones and a bastard who could have been legitimated by Robert between himself and Winterfell?

As for giving up a lordship for the NW, Benjen was no landholder. He may have become one perhaps, but perhaps not. And we've Jeor Mormont who was willing to give up his lordship for the NW. He had other reasons too, yes, but still.

Besides, I do think that the Stark would think that joining the NW is an honor, in the sense that it imparts honor to the man who does it and to his family. Ned says in AGoT that those who take the black would do honor to their houses.

Considering the fact that his family had just been on the winning side of the rebellion and his brothers closest friend was the new King who had plenty of land and honors to bestow he could probably have had pretty much anything he wanted.

Merely in the South. But not in the North where all Houses were apparently supporting Ned. So Benjen would have had to leave the North and one may have serious doubts if he would have felt comfortable doing it. There is a geographical and cultural barrier between North and South after all.

If wildling raids aren't that frequent then that argument goes equally against the military experience you said were so much more extensive at the Wall than anywhere else.

Waiting for a wildling raid to happen and defending against it south of the Wall isn't the same as actually seeking out wildling raiders or pursuing them beyond the Wall after they've made their escape from their raiding. Only the later is the job of the NW.

And if there's so many of them Benjen couldn't possibly deal with all of them himself, then it wouldn't really be a temporary, mainly administrative job would it?

You've misunderstood me. I wasn't pointing to a high frequency of wildling attacks in the Gift but to a low frequency. So that if Benjen isn't near the place of attack he will even miss these rare attacks and the opportunity to fight wildlings before they are beyond the Wall, at which point it becomes the job of the NW. The NW can react more flexible because they would sometimes be ahead and not behind the place of these attacks when they are alerted to them.

Not doing there job for them. Making an occasional tour north of the Wall.

To have similar experiences Benjen would have had to make more than an occasional tour beyond the Wall. He would have had to do the same as he did as a ranger, and in this case he would be doing the job of the NW.

So Benjen leading the operation to resettle the Gift would have meant building and waiting and talking and writing and planning but not much in the way of what a young ranger does.

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Benjen may also have gone to the Wall because he had been told, possibly by Lyanna who'd had it from Rhaegar, that bad times were coming. After all, isn't that why Rhaegar needed a "third head of the dragon"? To defeat the Others?

A couple of things I've noticed lately from AGoT:

Did this conversation take place before the tournament at Harrenhal?

"Robert will never keep to one bed," Lyanna had told him at Winterfell, on the night long ago when their father had promised her hand to the young Lord of Storm's End. "I hear he has gotten a child on some girl in the Vale." (AGoT p. 318, trade paper)

Ned came down from the Eyrie to go to Harrenhal. So it's possible that Lyanna and Robert were not yet betrothed when Rhaegar made her the queen of love and beauty.

Jon, the quote you cited ("Ned remembered the moment when all the smiles had died, when Prince Rhaegar Targaryen urged his horse past his own wife, the Dornish princess Elia Martell, to lay the queen of beauty's laurel in Lyanna's lap. He could see it still: a crown of winter roses, blue as frost." - AGOT 526-527 Ned thoughts) comes right after a mention of Robert jesting with another lord, but there is no link-up between Lyanna and Robert. It makes me wonder if it was Robert seeing Lyanna at Harrenhal that sparked his desire to marry her.

The other thing I noticed, which may or may not be relevant to this particular discussion, is Ned's thought with regards to Littlefinger (AGoT, p. 168): "It would not be the first time that Ned had been forced to make common cause with a man he despised." I'm trying to think when that might have been, and if that "first time" might fit into the relevant period during the rebellion.

[Edit to clean up quotation]

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If Benjen doesn't make another appearance in the last three (??+??) books in can be assumed that GRRM included him in the book as a pathway for Jon to come to the Wall. It was after talking to Benjen, and just having an uncle in NW, that Jon decided that that is what he wanted to do. There doesn't have to be a backstory for Benjen going to the wall.

This is probably the real reason (or one of them at least) for Benjen's presence at the Wall. There should still be an in-story explanation for it as well though.

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Ned came down from the Eyrie to go to Harrenhal. So it's possible that Lyanna and Robert were not yet betrothed when Rhaegar made her the queen of love and beauty.

"All the smiles" that died when Rhaegar crowned Lyanna, by implication, specifically included Robert's and those of his buddies - immediately before that quote Ned states that he was with them at the time and was watching Robert smiling immediately before the crowning. I feel that Robert's smiles didn't die because the crown prince had just committed a social faux pas, but that it was more of a, "Hey. That's my girl. Hands off!" reaction. So I think that Robert and Lyanna were betrothed at the time.

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If Tywin would have bothered to send those men-at-arms and guardsmen to the NW who fought at the Sack of King's Landing -- if they were captured at all and not killed out of hand -- the NW wouldn't have the manpower problems it obviously has. We know of two people who were sent there by Tywin. Two noble born knights who probably weren't killed out of hand because of their status only. We also know most of the knights of the NW. There are pretty few. So I just don't see all these Targaryen loyalists who were sent there after or during the war.

I still find it unlikely that no more than two people from the entire realm were sent to/chose to go to the Wall during and after the war regardless of what Tywin may or may not have done in KL. And since I never said it was more likely to be a noble or a knight who might have dangerous knowledge in fact they would be less likely to know something. Maids, midwives, messengers, etc are far more likely so what we know or don't know about knights in the NW is not very relevent to this particular theory.

And besides, since we're only discussing the knowledge they could have being about Jon, that makes it less likely one of the Targaryen supporters would be the danger. I originally mentioned Targaryen loyalists because I imagined a wider set of possible subjects they could know something about. But a Targaryen supporter wouldn't be nearly as dangerous to Jon's identity and safety as a devout supporter of Robert would be.

But that's wild, wild speculation. We don't know of any link between anybody at the Wall and the Tower of Joy.

I've already admitted as much.

So what did he do about it? He "sacrificed" his brother to spy on some guys in the NW but what did Ned do about the hundreds of people who may have had some peripheral knowledge about Jon's identity? Did he spy on Varys? Did Ned spy on Robert? Did he spy on Selmy or Jaime? Did he spy on the Daynes or their servants? Did he hire somebody to keep an eye on Wylla, so that she doesn't give something away inadvertly? Did he spy on the men in his army who went with him to SE and perhaps further?

What does Ned do about any people in the South (who don't have access to Jon himself) that might look into his identity? He has Wylla placed in the one place people would start looking (after all, it was when he returned from Starfall he had Jon with him) openly claiming to be Jon's mother, the same woman he tells Robert is the mother. He then takes Jon away from their view. A brother of the NW would be a lot closer to Winterfell and Jon, might occasionally visit there when on missions for the NW and a brother of the NW would not be able to go to Dorne and find Wylla.

You're assuming there never was a specific reason for Ned or Benjen to think a specific person could know or suspect something. I'm assuming the exact oposite. If they didn't the whole thing would, of course, be ridiculous. Which is also why it doesn't make sense that they would have to keep being suspcious of the same person for fifteen years for it to not be unlikely that they ever could have been. That particular argument just doesn't make sense to me.

Besides, Benjen may well be ignorant about who Jon is in the first place.

He could be, but there's a good chance he does know. Especially if you're right about him possibly knowing or suspecting something about Lyanna and Rhaegar before they ran off.

Are you serious? Do you really think that the men of the NW cared much about Ned having a bastard at Winterfell? Did they even know he had one? ;) The NW isn't overly interested in the affairs of the realm. When they don't have a personal connection, I imagine they could hardly have cared less about who Jon's mother was. How many people at the Wall have actually pried into Jon's origins? Exactly.

Fifteen years later no one cares because it's no longer anything new. That doesn't mean it wasn't talked and speculated about a lot when Ned first brought Jon home. Especially considering Ned's reputation and the fact that such a move went against all tradition.

I think I've understated the case, actually. How much military duty did Ned have in the last fifteen years? There was one war and nothing else we know of. A season of planning with a few battles. Why do you think Robert has gone too fat and yearned for the life of a sellsword? Why are tourneys so important to hone ones skill at arms? Because real combat can be hard to come by if there is no war. When the realm is at peace there is not much to do in the way of real fighting for a noble. In contrast, Benjen could expect combat whenever he ranged beyond the Wall.

What military duties the King of the realm has had with what the commander of a noble House would have had isn't really a meaningful comparison. Robert wouldn't really have been expected to deal with bandits, escorts and other minor issues just like the Lord Commander of the Night's Watch isn't really dealing with every wildling raid by himself.

And winning honour and glory at tournaments is probably a much more common dream among young nobles, even in the north, than joining the NW.

The Kingsguard is an order of _knighthood_. Benjen was no knight.

But since he had the same training as a knight that would have been a very easy problem to solve.

The Gold Cloaks? You aren't serious, or? Breaking up drunks, settling domestic disputes, trade matters, policing the streets etc Is that the kind of glory, excitement and service Benjen was likely to yearn for at 16 years? To become a common guard a thousand miles away from what he knew of the world, the north and the cold and the wild?

If he was dreaming of glory he was, by definition, not dreaming of the NW. And you're the one who claims that he would have found being the brother of rapists, thieves and other common criminals in a place where his birth didn't matter preferable to being a Lord himself or holding a high position at court or serving in an honoured position in a Lord's household. If that's true, being a "common guard" would hardly have been considered all that bad.

The Kingsguard is the supreme military order for knights while the NW is probably the supreme military order for northmen, in particular the Starks. So their respective functions can certainly be compared meaningfully on this dimension.

Now, I don't claim that even a Stark would feel as honored by becoming a member of the NW as a knight would feel honored by becoming a member of the Kingsguard. The Kingsguard is obviously a more elite military order and is much more associated with celebrity and glory as Maia rightly indicates. But the principle of being willing to give up something (family, lands) for the pursuit of something one values more (honorable service in a military order, service in a scholarly order in the case of the Maesters) is still the same.

In a distant past they may have been comparable but hardly in the last few centuries. The NW is a place where criminals are sent from all over the realm, the KG and the order of the Maesters (or the septons/septas) can hardly be compared with that.

I can certainly see that the chance to serve in the NW would trump the chance to have a family for some people. Indeed, isn't this the reason why people have joined the NW for millenniums? Isn't it the reason why Jon joined and Waymar Royce joined? Why should Ben have been any different? Because Waymar Royce had three trueborn people between himself and Runestone while Benjen had two trueborn ones and a bastard who could have been legitimated by Robert between himself and Winterfell?

Jon expressed an interest in joining in a fit of drunken anger over not being considered good enough to sit with the royal children. What he mentions as the dream he had was what I suggested might have been preferable for Benjen. Settling the Gift and holding a keep of his own there.

As for giving up a lordship for the NW, Benjen was no landholder. He may have become one perhaps, but perhaps not. And we've Jeor Mormont who was willing to give up his lordship for the NW. He had other reasons too, yes, but still.

Jeor Mormont claims he joined the NW to, in some way, make up for the fact that his son ran away from justice. That doesn't strike me as a choice he made because he wanted to but something he felt he had to do in order to restore the honour of his House.

Merely in the South. But not in the North where all Houses were apparently supporting Ned. So Benjen would have had to leave the North and one may have serious doubts if he would have felt comfortable doing it. There is a geographical and cultural barrier between North and South after all.

And joining the NW wouldn't drastically change his circumstances? You don't think there are "cultural barriers" between the NW and a noble House? Jon certainly seems to have troubles adjusting.

Waiting for a wildling raid to happen and defending against it south of the Wall isn't the same as actually seeking out wildling raiders or pursuing them beyond the Wall after they've made their escape from their raiding. Only the later is the job of the NW.

You've misunderstood me. I wasn't pointing to a high frequency of wildling attacks in the Gift but to a low frequency. So that if Benjen isn't near the place of attack he will even miss these rare attacks and the opportunity to fight wildlings before they are beyond the Wall, at which point it becomes the job of the NW. The NW can react more flexible because they would sometimes be ahead and not behind the place of these attacks when they are alerted to them.

It's actually stated in the books that the Gift has largely been abandoned because the frequent wildling raids. Not just isolated farms but entire villages have apparantly been abandoned for this reason. Clearly a man charged with keeping settlers and their property safe would have plenty of work to do.

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Benjen might not have been told, exactly, but he could probably make a pretty good guess. All he would have to do is ask Ned how Lyanna died; if he got the answer, "in childbirth", he could do the math. Makes me wonder what Ned did tell people happened, actually.

I have always wondered the same. What exactly did Ned tell? Lyanna was a healthy young woman. So what is the offical version of her death? Not only Benjen will have had asked also Robert and more or less the whole realm, being her a reason for the whole war. Did Rhaeger kill her or the KG or did she throw herself out of a tower window? Any of these explanation would have deepend Robert hatred against the Targaryens.

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