The Jon's Parentage Re-Read

[Gil-galad]

Jon could be a fair bit older the Robb it is offten mention that bastard grow faster then true born

I agree; the possibility exists. But this would mean that Jon is not the son of Lyanna.

Other question to consider:

Why do the Daynes cover Ned? Possibilities: Jon is the son of Wylla or the Daynes are somehow involved. This could mean that there honour is involved and they would be interested in deny that Lady Ashara had a bastard son.

Why I don't think they would cover for a Targaryen:

1. Reason: Neds personality: there are secrets that you don't share with anyone (I think there should be a quote in the books concerning this) and why should Ned share his secrets with a family which has reasons to hate him?

2. Why should the Daynes be that loyal? I mean hey they are of Dorne and Dorne was for centuries at war with the Targs. If they have a cover story for a child of Elia I could understand, but a loyalty for a son of a man who dishonoured a dornish Princess?

[Shewoman]

Dumas--you're right that Ned didn't get to King's Landing until late in the game and that a caesarean delivery is possible. I agree with Sarella that Catelyn and Robb (once born) seem to have been at Riverrun for the war; she remembers coming to Winterfell from there only to find Jon and a wetnurse already settled at Winterfell (GoT pp. 64-5, Catelyn).

Jon Targaryen, I find it easier to think of Ashara seeking Ned out than the other way around. Given that a lot of dates aren't strongly established--like how long the Harrenhal tournament was before Lyanna disappeared--the timeline is hard to establish. It is possible that between falling for Ashara at Harrenhal and Lyanna's disappearance/Brandon's death/Ned's engagement to Catelyn that Ned and Ashara were together. This would make Jon older than Robb, and Catelyn thinks it's the other way around, but it's possible.

Mezeh, you raise a good point. There is obviously some interest in Westeros in who was the mother of Ned's bastard. Ashara and Wylla are both mentioned as candidates. If Ashara did give birth to a child out of wedlock, the Daynes might be interested in hiding that fact for the sake of their family honor (even if she is dead now). I've thought of Wylla's allowing it to be thought that she was Jon's mother as her protecting whatever secret is connected to his birth--but it might be that she's protecting Ashara's reputation instead.

[Prince of the North]

Shewoman, your replies to Dumas, Jon Targaryen, and Mezeh have reminded me of something I've wondered about for awhile. It was said that Catelyn brought Robb to Winterfell to find Jon and his wetnurse already in residence. So, are we to believe that, assuming Wylla is the wetnurse in question and she is Jon's mother, that Ned not only asked his wife to suffer the presence of his bastard in their home but his bastard's mother as well?!

I think the answer is no and before I go any further I should state that I'm firmly in the R+L=J camp. There are a couple of reasons why I don't feel this is the case: 1) I don't think Ned would add "insult to injury" like that and 2) the fact that Ned tells different stories or allows different things to be believed concerning Jon's parentage depending on who he's dealing with.

Now, we know Wylla was Jon's wetnurse, at least for a time, from Edric Dayne. Sure, maybe Ned changed wetnurses for Jon before coming home to Winterfell but I don't know how plausible that is. I think the more plausible explanation for this is that Catelyn had no reason to be insulted by Wylla because she was/is not Jon's mother so Ned did not present her as such. And I don't think it's as simple as Wylla actually being Jon's mother but they kept it a secret from Catelyn while the woman was living in the same castle as her. That would actually be a pretty hard charade to pull off, I think. No, in Catelyn's case Ned seemed inclined to clam up about Jon's mother and seemed content to let her speculate. Thus, Catelyn suspected Jon's mother may be Ashara Dayne but wasn't sure. Conversely, when it came to Robert Ned threw Wylla out there as Jon's mother.

Why the different stories depending on audience? I think it's simply because Ned was thinking about what the reaction would be. In other words, Ned could not, even if he wanted to, say Ashara was Jon's mother because of possibly wanting to protect the Dayne's honor and also because this news, from Robert's perspective, would mean Ned was literally "sleeping with the enemy" during the rebellion. Also, Robert would possibly know that it would have been extremely difficult for Ned and Ashara to have gotten together in the right timeframe. No, much better to let Robert think Jon's mother was just some common woman chance met on campaign (which would be something Robert could definitely understand).

Furthermore, Ned could not very well tell Catelyn that Wylla, Jon's wetnurse, was also his mother because that would just be too much. It would be such an insult that Catelyn would probably be forced to give Ned the ol' "either she goes or I go" ultimatum and who could blame her? I mean, we are inside her head when she rationalizes Jon's existence as being the result of a man on campaign 'seeing to his needs' but I somehow doubt this rationalization would extend to allowing her husband's mistress (or whore, take your pick) to live with her under the same roof.

It's interesting that Ned chooses not to tell Catelyn anything about who Jon's mother might be but he throws the name "Wylla" out there readily enough for Robert. I think he was just telling Robert what he wanted to hear and that he feels keeping his family in the dark is the best course of action to protect them. He's thinkin' "what they don't know can't hurt them, right?"

Wow, I've rambled on more than I thought I would and, ultimately, this is much ado about nothing as it doesn't really make a case for R+L=J or anything...it's just fun to think about

[Shewoman]

Prince of the North, this whole topic leads to rambling . . . years of it, in my case. And there is still so little we can actually claim to know! I picture Martin giggling uncontrollably every time he thinks of us.

I've said upthread that I thought Wylla might have been at the Tower of Joy--might have been one of the "they" who found Ned by Lyanna's body. It makes sense to think that there would have been a wetnurse at hand, we know Wylla was a wetnurse, and since she's claiming to be Jon's mother (or allowing others to think so), she must know something about his birth (whether the claim is right or not). And about Edric Dayne: he doesn't know anything about Jon's birth of his own knowledge--it's only what he's heard from others.

I agree that Ned wouldn't have brought Wylla to Winterfell. It's not like wetnurses were extremely rare in Westeros. If Wylla was at Tower of Joy from the beginning and if Starfall was her home, she may simply have wanted to stay there after having been gone for such a long time. For whatever reason, Ned is obviously committed to keeping Jon's mother a secret. Even Catelyn thinks that a bastard conceived during wartime is understandable; it's the secrecy about the "other woman" that hurts her because it makes her think Ned loves Jon's mother more than her (GoT, p. 65, Catelyn). Giving her access to a woman who seems to know something about Jon's provenance would make keeping the secretthat much harder.

I think Ned told Robert Wylla was Jon's mother to get Robert off his back. I also don't think Wylla is Jon's mother; why should Ned work so hard to keep Wylla's motherhood a secret when Wylla seems to be broadcasting it in the South? But he loves Catelyn, knows that his unexplained behavior hurts her, but feels bound, apparently, to keep the secret. It's harder to lie to her than to Robert--and, actually, he doesn't; I think it's likely that "He is my blood" is quite true. Jon probably does have a Stark parent. I think he would tell them the truth--Jon, at least--if he didn't feel constrained for some reason not to.

[Prince of the North]

I think we're in quite a bit of agreement here! But it sounds as if you don't think it would be any big deal if Wylla was Jon's wetnurse at first and then some other woman was his wetnurse while he needed one at Winterfell? As I said earlier, I don't know anything about the abundance of wetnurses or how easy it would be to find one but I just wonder how baby Jon would have travelled to Winterfell without a wetnurse? Also, if he didn't travel to Winterfell without a wetnurse then that wetnurse was most likely Wylla, right? So, did Wylla accompany Jon to Winterfell and then get replaced and sent back south? That doesn't seem likely to me but I don't know...

[Shewoman]

During the medieval period in our world, noblewomen didn't tend to nurse their children. I think it's likely that it's that way in Westeros as well. Since, if all goes well, any woman who is nursing a child can keep nursing as long as her milk holds out and she doesn't get sick or pregnant, I don't think it would be that hard to find one who wanted the job and who was willing to travel to Winterfell. Might be a good way out of a difficult marriage.

If you're suggesting that Wylla accompanied Jon to Winterfell and Ned then hired a local woman as wetnurse and sent her home, that's possible--but given that Ned never tells Jon or Catelyn who Jon's mother is, if he's that committed to keeping the secret I don't think he'd bring anyone who knew the truth anywhere near Catelyn. If Wylla wasn't going to be Jon's wetnurse through his infancy, I think she'd be left at Starfall--and, if that's her home, she might ask to be able to stay there. I think it's more likely that the wetnurse was from the South--some woman who was ready for a change. Maybe she wanted to learn to ski.

An alternative might be to have Wylla travel partway with them, if the baby was used to her, and then send her home with an escort and hire a new wetnurse from wherever they happened to be at the time. Advantages: this woman would never know there even was a Wylla and wouldn't be able to mention Ned's time at Starfall and how beautiful Ashara is. And, if she wasn't from the area around Winterfell, she'd have no particular loyalty to Catelyn.

[the silent speaker]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Ned Dayne say that Wylla was his wetnurse, and Jon's mother? So if Jon was with a wetnurse of his own at Winterfell, it stands to reason that he wasn't with Wylla.

[Jon Targaryen]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Ned Dayne say that Wylla was his wetnurse, and Jon's mother? So if Jon was with a wetnurse of his own at Winterfell, it stands to reason that he wasn't with Wylla.

Edric Dayne is 12 though when Jon is 15-16. So, Wylla could have been at Winterfell for awhile then gone back south to nurse Edric. But I don't think Wylla was ever at Winterfell. Ned wouldn't want someone who knew to be there, I think.

[Dracosmith]

Edric Dayne is 12 though when Jon is 15-16. So, Wylla could have been at Winterfell for awhile then gone back south to nurse Edric. But I don't think Wylla was ever at Winterfell. Ned wouldn't want someone who knew to be there, I think.

Somehow I also think that if Wylla had came to Winterfell Catelyn would have distinctly remembered that when she was recalling Ned returning with Jon: whether she was the mother or just a wetnurse. I'm not saying that this is absolute proof, just another fact that makes it unlikely on top of what you note.

Without citing a specific theory, I think we can all agree on one thing regarding Jon's parentage: he is not just the bastard of Eddard and some common wench. There is simply too much secrecy for that to be the case. It is indisputable that Eddard is an honorable man who prefers truth and honesty, he would not be so cryptic about Jon's birth if there was not good reason for him to be.

Keeping in mind the Sherlock Holmes method, eliminate all that is impossible and see what you have left. I truly feel that it is in the realm of impossibility that Eddard would be so deliberately secretive about Jon's birth if Wylla was the mother. That leaves, in my mind, only two credible theories:

1) R+L = J

2) N+A = J

[sholtzma]

I think we are now technically in week 2....

When Robert asks Ned how many hundreds of times Rhaegar raped Lyanna - this always led me to believe that it was common knowledge that Rhaegar and Lyanna were together (wherever they were) for an extended period of time. Is this the consensus? I also thought recently that Robert was just embellishing the rape scenario due to the fact that he loved Lyanna as well and thought of love in these terms (sex). Hundreds of times does not imply running off for a few days.

It is also possible that many people thought that they were together for an extended period of time, but perhaps in truth were not. Any ideas?

[Shewoman]

Dracosmith, Catelyn does remember that Jon and his wetnurse were there before she was--but she doesn't say anything else about her.

I think R+L and N+A have some credibility, but I'm not ready to narrow it down to these two. (For one thing, we still have a couple of books to go, and wasn't there talk that there was some bombshell in ADWD on this subject?).

I don't know that we can rule out Aerys+Lyanna. According to Meera's tale, Aerys was at Harrenhal. She says that after the tournament "the storm lord and the knight of skulls and kisses each swore they would unmask him ("The Knight of the Laughing Tree"), and the king himself urged men to challenge him . . . The king was wroth, and even sent his son the dragon prince to seek the man" (SoS, pp. 342-3, Bran). Aerys could have become enamored of her there. Kidnapping her sounds like his style. If that's true, then Rhaegar rescued her. This theory puts Rhaegar with Lyanna while still allowing the good perceptions Jorah, Selmy, and others have of him to be valid. It also explains why Lyanna left no explanatory message for her family.

Ashara was at Harrenhal; she was also at King's Landing during the war. That makes A+A possible, although I don't have any other support for this theory and it doesn't explain Jon's Stark looks.

scholtzma, as far as I know, we've not seen or heard anything about how Rhaegar's name was attached to the incident. I've always thought that when Lyanna disappeared people's thoughts jumped to Rhaegar because he chose her as the Queen of Love and Beauty at Harrenhal when his own wife was there. I'm not sure how much time passed between Harrenhal and Lyanna's disappearance, but I think it was no more than a few months. Ned remembers the moment when Rhaegar gave Lyanna the crown as "the moment when all smiles died." No PoV has claimed any personal eyewitness knowledge of Rhaegar's involvement or referred to anyone else having any either.

[Shewoman]

Dracosmith, Catelyn does remember that Jon and his wetnurse were there before she was--but she doesn't say anything else about her.

I think R+L and N+A have some credibility, but I'm not ready to narrow it down to these two. (For one thing, we still have a couple of books to go, and wasn't there talk that there was some bombshell in ADWD on this subject?).

I don't know that we can rule out Aerys+Lyanna. According to Meera's tale, Aerys was at Harrenhal. She says that after the tournament "the storm lord and the knight of skulls and kisses each swore they would unmask him (The Knight of the Laughing Tree), and the king himself urged men to challenge him . . . The king was wroth, and even sent his son the dragon prince to seek the man" (SoS, pp. 342-3, Bran). Aerys could have become enamored of her there. Kidnapping her sounds like his style. If that's true, then Rhaegar rescued her. This theory puts Rhaegar with Lyanna while still allowing the good perceptions Jorah, Selmy, and others have of him to be valid. It also explains why Lyanna left no explanatory message for her family.

Ashara was at Harrenhal; she was also at King's Landing during the war. That makes A+A possible, although I don't have any other support for this theory and it doesn't explain Jon's Stark looks.

Sholtzma, I think only a few months passed between the tournament at Harrenhal and Lyanna's disappearance from the North. I think it's likely that people assumed that Rhaegar was involved with her vanishing since he made her the Queen of Love and Beauty at Harrenhal when his own wife was there. Ned recalls that as "the moment when all smiles died." (And I'd be interested to know why ALL smiles died. Was this perceived as more than a slur on Elia? As a rejection of Dorne? Was it understood as the Crown Prince making a public play for the Stark girl?)

As far as I know, no PoV has explained how word got out that Rhaegar was involved; none have claimed personal knowledge on that point or mentioned having been told by anyone else.

[Angalin]

Mezeh, you raise a good point. There is obviously some interest in Westeros in who was the mother of Ned's bastard.

Another reason why Ned would not want to bring Jon to King's Landing. Out of sight, out of mind, etc etc; Ned does not want Jon in a place where people will start asking questions about his parentage, or worse, starting to dig for their own answers. Can you imagine what Littlefinger or Varys would do, if presented with Eddard Stark's bastard? Oy.

If you're suggesting that Wylla accompanied Jon to Winterfell and Ned then hired a local woman as wetnurse and sent her home, that's possible--but given that Ned never tells Jon or Catelyn who Jon's mother is, if he's that committed to keeping the secret I don't think he'd bring anyone who knew the truth anywhere near Catelyn. If Wylla wasn't going to be Jon's wetnurse through his infancy, I think she'd be left at Starfall--and, if that's her home, she might ask to be able to stay there. I think it's more likely that the wetnurse was from the South--some woman who was ready for a change. Maybe she wanted to learn to ski.

An alternative might be to have Wylla travel partway with them, if the baby was used to her, and then send her home with an escort and hire a new wetnurse from wherever they happened to be at the time.

I've always assumed that the wetnurse Catelyn mentions was one hired in the south to replace Wylla, who probably only nursed Jon for the first few weeks or months of his life until someone else could be found to go north with him and stay there. Note that Jon never mentions the existence of a wetnurse while he's still in Winterfell, so Anonymous Wetnurse has either died since then or left Winterfell, if not the north entirely. Unless Old Nan could still produce... Wetnursing used to be a profession in itself, although possibly at a later date than the Westeros medieval equivalent. However, infant mortality rates would have been high enough to provide Ned with a choice of lactating females to look after Jon.

I don't know that we can rule out Aerys+Lyanna. According to Meera's tale, Aerys was at Harrenhal. She says that after the tournament "the storm lord and the knight of skulls and kisses each swore they would unmask him ("The Knight of the Laughing Tree"), and the king himself urged men to challenge him . . . The king was wroth, and even sent his son the dragon prince to seek the man" (SoS, pp. 342-3, Bran). Aerys could have become enamored of her there. Kidnapping her sounds like his style. If that's true, then Rhaegar rescued her. This theory puts Rhaegar with Lyanna while still allowing the good perceptions Jorah, Selmy, and others have of him to be valid. It also explains why Lyanna left no explanatory message for her family.

If the king was so wroth, I don't see him falling for Lyanna in a good way. :/ More like kidnapping her and punishing her, before Rhaegar rescued her and hid her from him.

[Shewoman]

Angalin--we don't know for sure that Lyanna was the KotLT--and if she was, we don't know that Aerys ever figured that out.

[the silent speaker]

So, Wylla could have been at Winterfell for awhile then gone back south to nurse Edric.

Timewise, yes. What I'm saying is if he was there with his wetnurse, he wasn't there with his mother.

[Angalin]

Angalin--we don't know for sure that Lyanna was the KotLT--and if she was, we don't know that Aerys ever figured that out.

You're right on both counts; I was carrying the hypothetical A+L from your post a little far. As you say, even if Lyanna was the KotLT, it's not clear how Aerys would have figured that out unless Rhaegar tipped his dad off. Would he really have done that, knowing that Aerys was pissed off with the mystery knight? And wouldn't Aerys have had to have burnt someone in order to rape Lyanna? Would Jaime not have mentioned something like that as a parallel to Aerys's night with the queen, when Daenerys was conceived? Although I do wonder why Aerys wanted to take out both Ned *and* Robert after Brandon and Rickard's deaths. No Baratheons had been harmed up to that point, although Jon Arryn's nephew was one of those burned. This may well have been explained in detail somewhere else, but it's possible that an Aerys desirous of Lyanna might want to off her betrothed.

Back to the original question: who are Jon's parents?

Possible fathers: Ned, Brandon, Rhaegar, Aerys, ?

Possible mothers: Lyanna, Wylla, Ashara, ?

SPOILER: ADwD

In one of Davos's chapters, he hears that Jon's mother was a fisherman's daughter. I suppose this girl could have been the wetnurse installed at Winterfell.

I have discounted other Stark males on the basis that, really, what would be the big deal if old Lord Stark fathered a bastard before he went up in flames? Benjen ruled himself out early on in AGoT. Brandon, on the other hand, is a remote possibility, if the timeline works. Ned might not have wanted to tell Jon that if he'd been legitimate, he would have inherited Winterfell before Ned, or have had to explain to Catelyn that Brandon had had a last fling resulting in a child. There is no hint from Ned when he hears about Cersei and Jaime, however, that Brandon could have fathered a child on Lyanna, so any mother of Brandon's child would just be some random girl.

Unless the revelation of Jon's parents is to be a real letdown, say Ned and a camp-follower, why have such authorial secrecy? There's no need for it, unless it's going to have a major impact on the main storyline or wrap up an already-introduced plotline. If his parents are Ned and Ashara, then we'll know why we've heard a fair amount about her already. If he's the son of Lyanna and either Targaryen, then that opens up the story. If he's Brandon's son, then we're back to the Stark in Winterfell stuff.

[Prince of the North]

Timewise, yes. What I'm saying is if he was there with his wetnurse, he wasn't there with his mother.

This is what I was trying to say in my long-winded way above - thnak you

I don't think Ned would bring his bastard's mother to Winterfell and I also agree with everyone that said he probably couldn't bring Wylla north, even if she wetnursed Jon for a time, because she would know too much. I also didn't know wetnurses were so prevalent in medieval times. But they don't seem to be all that uncommon and, thus, it would have been relatively easy to get another one for Jon.

[Jon Targaryen]

Brandon, on the other hand, is a remote possibility, if the timeline works. Ned might not have wanted to tell Jon that if he'd been legitimate, he would have inherited Winterfell before Ned, or have had to explain to Catelyn that Brandon had had a last fling resulting in a child. There is no hint from Ned when he hears about Cersei and Jaime, however, that Brandon could have fathered a child on Lyanna, so any mother of Brandon's child would just be some random girl.

Brandon is ruled out by the timeline. The war started after Brandon's death and lasted a year. Through SSM we know that Dany was born eight or nine months after Jon. So Jon was born around the time of the Sack or just after. So Jon was conceived some three or four months into the war. Ergo, Brandon cannot be the father. It's really Ned or Lyanna with Benjen being a remote possiblity.

[Angalin]

Brandon is ruled out by the timeline. The war started after Brandon's death and lasted a year. Through SSM we know that Dany was born eight or nine months before Jon. So Jon was born around the time of the Sack or just after. So Jon was conceived some three or four months into the war. Ergo, Brandon cannot be the father. It's really Ned or Lyanna with Benjen being a remote possiblity.

Thanks, I knew I could rely on you! This doesn't come as a surprise. Story-wise, Brandon wouldn't have been very interesting as Jon's father.

[Jon Targaryen]

Thanks, I knew I could rely on you! This doesn't come as a surprise. Story-wise, Brandon wouldn't have been very interesting as Jon's father.

True, and I meant to add that. If Brandon got some girl pregnant it would hurt Catelyn a little yes, but it wouldn't mean Ned wouldn't eventually just tell her and relieve the strain on their marriage. Plus, Jon probably would have been fostered out or lived with his mother.