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Wheel of Time


me399

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Liked the first 4-6 books good characters and story, then the series kinda went into neutral and did nothing for several books. The characters did not change or grow, in fact IMHO most of the female characters became the same person with a different POV. The last one was doing something and getting the story ready to go but now I do not know how they will finish the series off.

Also, it helps a lot if you can find a character map or list on line because it becomes easy to forget who they are and what they did before because there are a ton of characters and sometimes you will not see them for several books.

WOT is not a bad series, I like ASOIAF better, the first books are very good thou and I would encourage you to give them a go, your taste are different than mine and you might like WOT better.

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I think that because you have read ASoIaF you won't like 1-2 so much, but 3-6 are still better than good IMO. 7 & 8 are decent. 9 is pretty poor, you really wouldn't miss out much if you read the chapter summaries. 11 is very flashy and entertaining, but on the re-read you see that its quite hollow.

As for the magic; the weakest Aes sedai could single-handedly destroy a small army. And the strongest of Channellers can take on the whole Greek Pantheon by themselves.

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As for the magic; the weakest Aes sedai could single-handedly destroy a small army. And the strongest of Channellers can take on the whole Greek Pantheon by themselves.

That's not quite accurate. The weakest Aes Sedai wouldn't be able to destroy armies. Moiraine was considered one of the stronger Aes Sedai until the finding of Egwene, Elayne and Nynaeve etc, and she barely held off the Trolloc raid in the Two Rivers and that was only because she had Lan and the townsfolk fighting with her.

Even if they have the power, they can only destroy an army if it threatens their life or the life of their warder/other Aes Sedai.

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That rule doesn't apply to Shadowspawn. She can whack away at Trollocs all she wants. But still, it takes alot of effort. She does it later, and even with the help on an Angre'al, she can't take them all.

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Magic is much, much more potent and prevalent in WoT than asoiaf. It's one reason I found Song to be so refreshing-people didn't kill armies by themselves. But WoT is still worth reading, because there are some great parts that make up for the rest.

This is also making me hopeful, I love A.S.o.I.a.F. but sometimes I find myself only wishing for more magic. (small, small complaint)

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The Wheel of Time is a much better series than Song because Jordan didn't write himself into a corner halfway through the series. Or was I not suppose to mention that little problem? Martin may work his way out of it {or more likely, around it} but it won't really feel the same.

To be fair, Jordan had a bit of a problem around book 8-11 as Perrin's story was dragged out too far but that's my only complaint. I enjoyed the battles, the madness, the farcial comedy and personal sacrifice of the later books and Martin doesn't do them as well. But Martin's much better at intricate plotting, shocking violence and overall writing.

So far.

"The first half of the series is so much better than the first half."

Is there any series written over a good length of time that doesn't fit this statement?

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"The first half of the series is so much better than the first half."

Is there any series written over a good length of time that doesn't fit this statement?

As long as 1>1 is false, I'm quite certain that none will ever fit.

If you wanted to say that there isn't any serie where the second half is as good as the first half, I don't know of many finished epic fantasy "written over a good length of time", but I can at least mention the Discworld and Lord of the Rings. I admit I like my series concise and that bloating for the sake of bathes and dresses strikes me a sign of bad quality.

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I just finished up Feast for Crows and I just cant find anything to read. I was looking at my bookshelves and saw 10,000 pages of wheel of time staring back at me. I am gonna do it, I am going to finish this series. I started once and got through the second book but then got distracted by other things and never went back. I did really like the first 2 books, I loved the prologue for the first book. I did find the first 1/3 of book one a little slow but I did really like what I read of the series.

I know many find the later books really slow, nothing happening, but I just feel the need to read these. I did hear good things about the last book. I really wish Mr. Jordan cold have lived long enough to complete this series but from what I have heard he left extensive notes on how everything should end.

I also wanted to know what books in the series deal more with the Aes Sedai, I love these characters. I know that some find them boring but I find there parts fascinating.

If you've read and enjoyed Dumas, you'll like Jordan too. And if you like multilayerd plots which can be discussed to death, you'll like Jordan even more.

Ignore statements on how the characters don't develop. They don't develop like aSoIaF charcters do, but that doesn't mean they don't develop at all.

As for the AS, if you like them based on the first two books, be prepared for a shock. Moiraine, Siuan and Verin are not representative of the typical AS. But their storyline is central to the series, and done very intersetingly.

Books with more AS content are Lord of Chaos, Path of Daggers and Crossroads of Twilight. Fires of Heaven and a Crown of Swords have quite a bit on them too. All this refers to AS as an organization. Random AS can be found present in almost all plotlines.

The Prologue, New Spring, is a good place to learn about the internal workings of the AS, seen through the eyes of a young Moiraine. But don't touch it till you're done with book 7.

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dont start WoT expecting something similar to asoiaf. WoT is clearly and significantly inferior in almost every criteria u can use to judge fantasy series.

Even in world building and developed and logical magic systems? Can you justify that?

as for character development, there really isnt any to talk of. all the characters are shallow and neatly fit inside one-word descriptions.

Lets play! Give one word descriptions that fit for the major characters. And try showing how they're shallow.

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Even in world building and developed and logical magic systems? Can you justify that?
For the worldbuilding, can you justify it, too? I'm curious about what your criteria and arguments are.

For the rest, way to choose something that wasn't shown in asoiaf so far. I can also compare Foundation and WoT and say that WoT is inferior because you cannot justify that it has a deeloped and logical scientific system.

If you've read and enjoyed Dumas, you'll like Jordan too. And if you like multilayerd plots which can be discussed to death, you'll like Jordan even more.
Not necessarily. I love Dumas, a bloody expensive edition of The Count of Monte Cristo sits on my shelves just because I could. Maybe it's because I could read it young and in french but neverhteless, that doesn't mean I liked WoT. I tried because of the fuss around it, people claimed the first 6 books were the best, but I could barely get past book three after months of break, and stopped at book 5, disgusted. The plot (so far) was not multilayered, it was railroaded, the characters were also simplistic, the interactions between them irritated me and the plot was horrible.

I also like a good multilayered plot, but either I was turned off by the way the rest of the story was constructed or I didn't get it, but I never saw anything worth discussing in what I read of WoT.

My point is: your sweeping generalization is inaccurate and misleading.

Ignore statements on how the characters don't develop. They don't develop like aSoIaF charcters do, but that doesn't mean they don't develop at all.
True, they develop from a farmboy who thinks "I wish Matt was here, he knows how to handle women", to a king with a harem who thinks "I wish Matt was here, he knows how to handle women". And the female go from calling all the men "woolheads", thinking they suck and still getting rescued by them 90% of the time to calling all the men "woolheads", thinking they suck and still getting rescued by them 90%. They gain magical power in between though, tug their braids, take bathes and have staring contests.
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If you haven't read any of the books yet I'd recommend waiting for the final volume and then read the whole thing in one sweep. Or drop it after the first book, whatever suits you.

On the plot: It is foreshadowed early in the series where it is heading but it's not so obvious how it's going to get there. I wouldn't call it railroaded, though some threads might be. There are also some plot threads that don't do much except give some of the characters more screen time. And as with Ice & Fire, you can easily get caught up with certain parts of the story and forget the big picture (like those readers who forget about the Others).

And though WoT is often very cliched, Jordan is still too subtle for the average Fantasy reader. I have done my share of plot discussion and found that most people just miss what's happening to Rand in the middle books.

SPOILER: WoT
By the end of Book 5 he is obviously severely affected by the taint on saidin and more than a bit mad.

Not sure if that counts as character development. I would agree that it isn't Jordan's strength in general but who says that's what a Fantasy epic has to be about? One should also mention that some things people complain about are intentional and part of the world building. In Jordan's world gender relations were messed up by the breaking of the world and the taint on saidin.

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For the worldbuilding, can you justify it, too? I'm curious about what your criteria and arguments are.

Why, yes, I can. IMO, a well developed world is one which has strong internal consistency, presents a society that is interesting and worth reading, while also developing concepts and ideas worthy of exploration.

I find Jordan's world fits the bill because I'm yet to notice major inconsistencies. Randland society is built interestingly, with the obvious bias against men presented well. Also, the White Tower is very well developed as a corrupted organization at the cusp of complete breakdown, an orginization of wasted opportunitites that has gotten too used to its power, and misuses it. The Seanchan are also an interestingly presented antagonistic civilization. Rather than take the extremely easy and dull route of presenting them as a totally evil culture, Jordan creates a society that has upward mobility and equal justice for all, while yet being a society with slaves that captures all channelers. The slaves are allowed to move up in society though, and there is good reasoning behind thier decision to enslave all channelers.

For the rest, way to choose something that wasn't shown in asoiaf so far. I can also compare Foundation and WoT and say that WoT is inferior because you cannot justify that it has a deeloped and logical scientific system.

What? Why are you dragging asoiaf into this? The claim made by the OP was that WoT was inferior to other fantasies in every respect. I asked how this was so with respect to a magic system.

Not necessarily. I love Dumas, a bloody expensive edition of The Count of Monte Cristo sits on my shelves just because I could. Maybe it's because I could read it young and in french but neverhteless, that doesn't mean I liked WoT. I tried because of the fuss around it, people claimed the first 6 books were the best, but I could barely get past book three after months of break, and stopped at book 5, disgusted. The plot (so far) was not multilayered, it was railroaded, the characters were also simplistic, the interactions between them irritated me and the plot was horrible.

Of course, not necessarily. I may not have been clear enough, but I'm far from claiming that those who love Dumas have to like WoT. The statement was made because I see many similarities in the way both Dumas and Jordan write, as well as their characters.

Incidentally, I personally think the first three WoT books are merely entertaining, not deep at all. Its post Shadow Risisng that things get interesting.

As for the characters, they're archetypical, but in a good way. They do not lack in development or motivation, and come across as real people while still confirming loosely to the archetypes they've been moulded on.

I also like a good multilayered plot, but either I was turned off by the way the rest of the story was constructed or I didn't get it, but I never saw anything worth discussing in what I read of WoT.

Shrugs. I can only point to the large amount of internet discussions. Not all of them are sillt fanboi musings.

Certainly, the complexity isn't visible on the surface, but the plot is quite dense and complex.

My point is: your sweeping generalization is inaccurate and misleading.

I didn't make a generalization at all, let alone a sweeping one.

True, they develop from a farmboy who thinks "I wish Matt was here, he knows how to handle women", to a king with a harem who thinks "I wish Matt was here, he knows how to handle women". And the female go from calling all the men "woolheads", thinking they suck and still getting rescued by them 90% of the time to calling all the men "woolheads", thinking they suck and still getting rescued by them 90%. They gain magical power in between though, tug their braids, take bathes and have staring contests.

And you accuse me of generalizations? It may sound really cool to use hyperbole, but doesn't serve the debate any. Any character can be devalued this way.

And since you mentioned baths, I suppose you're repeating what you heard since that doesn't occur till the tenth book?

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WoT did start strong and the story developed and moved forward, then around book 5-6 the series and the characters stalled. Rand ruler of about half of the kingdoms with three wives has trouble talking to girls and still does not know how to deal with them. Matt has been stuck in this what will I do now and has not done much. Perrin, who was not even involved in one of the books, has also been stuck. It is like they are holding on to the ball waiting for the clock to run down before they move.

The female characters are now insulting the men wanting to hit them, then spanking each other, and are not doing much at all. Min has done nothing and the big three are mostly doing the same thing as they were back in books 5-6.

The forsaken and the other shadow followers are just tooling around starting some plots but not doing much either.

I first started to read WoT when I was in the Navy and I loved the early books Jordan did a great job in world building and creating a new society out of nothing; however, the series was never meant to be this long and a lot of the books just felt like padding. If Jordan would have tightened the series and kept it around nine books, people would be calling it one of the best series ever; now I think it will go down as what could have been.

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And since you mentioned baths, I suppose you're repeating what you heard since that doesn't occur till the tenth book?
Basically, yes. I did not really want to drop a serie in the middle, so I investigated, to see if it got better regarding the points irritating me. In the course of this inquiry, I happened to read several chapters, among them was one devoted to Elaine bathing. It made an impression.

What? Why are you dragging asoiaf into this? The claim made by the OP was that WoT was inferior to other fantasies in every respect. I asked how this was so with respect to a magic system.
You were the one to drag asoiaf in it. I made a similar comparison. Why would a magic system be more relevant than science, anyway? Didn't Rand invent gunpowder?

As for character development, I could not help it. Braid tugging, and everything it represents is not hyperbole.

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Actually, I think the gunpowder thing almost works.

SPOILER: WoT
The Guild of Illuminators knew about gunpowder and how to make it for centuries, they just kept it secret from the rest of civilisation (a major feat, but not totally implausible). After Mat uses some fireworks to bust into the Stone of Tear in Book 3, he realises their military application, but is unable to convince an ex-Illuminator to give him the secrets to make use of this until Book 9 or 10 (I forget) once it becomes clear that the Illuminators are gone forever. Shortly after this we discover that the Illuminators weren't unaware of the potential for gunpowder weapons and seem to have come up with some ideas and designs so Mat is able to field several prototype cannons against the Seanchan at the end of Book 11.

And since you mentioned baths, I suppose you're repeating what you heard since that doesn't occur till the tenth book?

There was a lengthy communal bath scene in Book 4 and several others throughout the rest of the series. Aviendha's use of a bath in Book 5 results in Rand getting his spear, for example. The Wheel of Time is the only major epic fantasy series in which regular water immersion can be the catalyst for life-changing plot developments. However, it does get a lot worse later on, to the point where you are not sure if RJ is indulging in self-parody. I note that Book 11's superiority to the previous three volumes is directly proportional to its much reduced bathing quotient.

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That's not quite accurate. The weakest Aes Sedai wouldn't be able to destroy armies. Moiraine was considered one of the stronger Aes Sedai until the finding of Egwene, Elayne and Nynaeve etc, and she barely held off the Trolloc raid in the Two Rivers and that was only because she had Lan and the townsfolk fighting with her.

Even if they have the power, they can only destroy an army if it threatens their life or the life of their warder/other Aes Sedai.

Your quite right i was exaggerating slightly but its true that there is a very massive gap between the weakest Aes sedai and the greatest Swordsman/Archer/General in the world. They might as well be another race entirely. What i said about the strongest Channelers still applies though.

As for for the differences between WoT and ASoIaF i would just say that Randland i a far better REALIZED world. You know its quite different from ours but you accept it because it is so damn easy to sink into. The sad thing about WoT is that it has so much potential, if an other writer had taken the same basic concepts and got rid of all the braid tugging and "woolheads" , and turned the Forsaken into the dishonest to God badass's they where meant to be then it could have been something truly special.

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Your quite right i was exaggerating slightly but its true that there is a very massive gap between the weakest Aes sedai and the greatest Swordsman/Archer/General in the world. They might as well be another race entirely. What i said about the strongest Channelers still applies though.

As for for the differences between WoT and ASoIaF i would just say that Randland i a far better REALIZED world. You know its quite different from ours but you accept it because it is so damn easy to sink into. The sad thing about WoT is that it has so much potential, if an other writer had taken the same basic concepts and got rid of all the braid tugging and "woolheads" , and turned the Forsaken into the dishonest to God badass's they where meant to be then it could have been something truly special.

That points highly debatable.

The Forsaken in the early books are alot like the Aes Sedai in the early books. Their looked upon in this very idealized way. Because, to the characters we are following, these people are LEGENDS. Their large then life. We know them by reputation not fact.

And what happens to both of them when we actually meet them? Their far less then the legends would have us believe.

Hell, one of the Forsaken isn't even all that evil. What did Asmodean sell his soul for again? An eternity to perfect and practice his music.

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As far as Brandon Sanderson, I trust him to do a good job. I've read his debut, Elantris, and the first of his new trilogy, Mistborn: The Final Empire, and they both were good reads with original ideas in the sometimes-stale fantasy universe. He's following Jordan's very extensive notes and outlines and has Jordan's wife (who also edited all the books) working right with him. Seriously, try to pick out the parts Jordan had already written and what Brandon had to write.

Which is aguably the worst decision in the history of the world of publishing. There has maybe never been an author more in need of a strong editor than jordan.

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