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Wheel of Time


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Just for the record:

Rand is insane and he knows it. There is no doubt. Jordan has been rather blunt about that in the last book after realizing that the fans just wouldn't get it (or refuse to). Rand has real memories from his previous life, including the part where he slew his own family. The latter naturally bothers him a lot.

Rand's part in defeating the Dark One is more Frodo-type. He has to close the Bore, presumably in a combined effort of male and female channelers and a self-sacrifice of Rand. After that he will somehow be resurrected and unite all Randland. He will not accomplish the latter before the Last Battle. There'll be a real battle between armies, too, but those won't necessarily be led by Rand. Actually, I think it's more likely that Mat is the general of the Light.

As for the Asmodean, IIRC he severed his mother and had her carried off by a Myrdraal. And that his motive for joining the Shadow was particularly petty doesn't make it any better. Geerally, the Forsaken have outlived their time and are subsequently demoted to ordinary (though high-rank) Darkfriend status. Selling your soul to the devil is a stupid thing in the long run but that doesn't stop people if there is an advantage in the short run.

The cultural variety is too small rather than too large for a pre-industrial society.

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What do you mean by this? Give me one example of this occuring?

Read any WoT fansite encyclopedia. They'll be happy to tell you how each individual kingdom in Randland is a direct derivative of one or more real world cultures. From the knives everywhere, honor loving, duel happy punks down south, to the chronic mask wearers a bit further north, and around the same area we have the scandilous, latex wearing equivilent sluts of some other place. Tear is happy with its castes. Some more standard northern/western European fair in the mid-countries. With some of the northerners doing the whole marriage dot thing with some unusual hairstyles. For kingdoms that have the obvious amount of contact and proximity that these do, I'd say these differences are a bit much. You may disagree. But that doesn't change the fact that they were put in there because RJ wanted a little bit of everything and thought it'd be neat, not because it really makes any sense or serves a practical purpose.

Well since this never happens, it seems clear you've invented your own WoT appendix and stuffed it with names from ancient myth, all with the aim of making pointless accusations.

Seriously, Artur Hawking isn't supposed to be King Arthur? Camelyn isn't Camelot? Eh, what the hell, I'll just copy and paste.

* John Glenn: "Tell us about Lenn," Egwene called. "How he flew to the moon in the belly of an eagle made of fire. Tell about his daughter Salya walking among the stars." (Eagle has landed.../Lenn may be a merger of LEM (lunar module) and Glenn)

* Salya: Sally Ride? Or Salyut, the space station [Douglas Cole].

* Moscow, ICBMs: Mosk the Giant, with his Lance of Fire that could reach around the world.

* America::Merk the other giant.

* Queen Elizabeth::Alsbet, queen of all. (Remains of British Empire/Commonwealth?)

* Mother Theresa: Materese the Healer, Mother of the Wondrous Ind

* Anne Landers: Anla, the wise counselor?

Or did you fall for mamma Cauthon's strategy and believe she was actually stating historicall proven facts about the Forsaken to baby Mat?

There's a difference between not living up to the legend and not being remotely close to what was described. The fact is the forsaken are supposed to be uber evil and near all-powerful but they always get their asses handed to them by barely trained school kids whenever they have a confrontation. And their Machievellan scheming amounts to giving people headaches and talking shit at 'evil person conventions'. Of course Jordan inserted the 'Let the lord of chaos rule' plot device in book 6 so that we have an explanation for their lack of accomplishing anything.

And than there's the Aes Sedai who are as redundant in their personalities as they are in their names. All whiny, bitchy, and utterly incompetent. In fact that applies to near every woman in Randland, where every organization and culture, despite oceans and deserts that may separate them, establish their hierarchy by whoever is pushier and bitchier. And each random coven we meet will inevitably have a woman/girl whose pushier and bitchier than all the rest we've met before who will take control until we meet the next group. (Jordan follows a similar pattern with new peoples with strength in the magic and for a while was doing it with magical items)

Again, why are you dragging Martin into this? Can't WoT be discussed for itself instead of turning it into yet another pissing contest between two series?

You dragged Martin into this (amongst others) on the specific point of world building as I pointed out in the previous post.

And there were hints before that prepare the way for Far Madding.

There are magic sucking places that generally don't house humans and items as well. That still doesn't explain the glaring oversight of a major, entirely magic free human city that never got mentioned for 8 books until it was needed as a plot device. But I wouldn't expect an RJ apologist to see the obvious.

Misinformation and the idea of insufficient communication affecting world event.

You mean willful stupidity on the part of the major characters as a means of keeping the dangling plot strands from unraveling? They've got the historic equivilent of the cell phone with the dream thing...hasn't helped them with that communication thing.

The idea of limits to what you can do to combat evil.

So far just about every limit and 'has never been done', 'can never been done' that RJ placed on the magic in his world has been broken. I'd say the limits are pretty much whatever RJ wants or wanted to pull out of his ass.

That merely maintaining a status quo not only leads to stagnation but also recession.

The entire depth of economics in these books is Rand saying 'give the poor some love' in book 3 or 4. This is hardly an explored idea.

Seriously, how are any of these ideas actually explored. Whose got blind faith? The children of the light? They might as well be twirling their mustaches and sneering menacingly. How are lame, cookie-cutter villains an exploration of anything? About the only thing you list that actually explores any sort of idea is the non-violent thing, and that's primarily through a single character who they'll probably cop out and turn into a darkfriend. Honestly, you're seeing depth that simply isn't there.

you do realize that there is a very good reason for why these women behave as if they are superios to men don't you?

RJ (self-admittedly) cannot write women and so based most of the female characters off of his wife? And there's a difference between power disparity and gender roles vs. being a complete, childish moron towards everyone with a penis you see.

The reason some Aes Sedai choose to serve the Dark One is because he promises immortality and unquestioned power.

Lets explore the obvious flaws in this line of reasoning. Most people in Randland appear to be up on the current history, I assume most darkfriends are too. Satan had thousands if not millions of servants in the last war...he granted immortality to about a dozen that we know of. Does every darkfriend think they'll win the lottery or that the evil bad guy has had a generous change of heart?

The guy is evil. People generally do things bad things for selfish reasons. You generally won't find them doing evil for evil's sake. Sure there's a few wacko's in every bunch, but not this many.

And the immortality. Yeah, I'd do a few things for immortality. But if the guy whose offering it has expressed an intent to all but destroy the world, slaughter most of humanity, crush civilizations, and overrun just about everyplace with uglier orc stand-ins...why would I want to live forever in that? Some of these are men of power and influence, how are their ambitions served if the world they seek to have power in no longer exists? Any wealth serving evil got them rendered meaningless because there is no functioning economy, due to global societal collapse? What are all of these people lining up for? The wish-granter wants to end the world, what good will their immortality be than? No, their motivations are not the least bit plausible given the context. Just lazy writing.

Surely you don't mean to say that you label all antagonists as evil.

No Jordan does that for us. He calls most of them darkfriends for christs sake. The guy has painted a more simplistic, unrealistic, black and white, good vs. evil world than Tolkien ever bothered to create.

Name a fantasy without elements of magic in it, then.

What you said was essentially 'compare the magical systems'. Not 'elements of magic'. Nor 'hints of magic'. I'm simply pointing out that having a well constructed magical system is not in any way a proper barometer of the quality of the fantasy series, especially when magic plays such a minimal role in one series. It is in fact an incredibly dumb question and point for comparison.

Yes, because that is so what the characters are all about!

Considering that the only other character trait most of them display is chronic bitchiness, I'd say yeah...that is mostly what the characters are all about.

Again, statements you fail to back up with evidence.

Are you a moron? As you seem to be accusing everyone else of...have you read the books yourself? Faile gets captured somewhere around book 7 or 8. Its about 3 books later before she's rescued. They were set to storm the White Tower around book 7...a storyline that's still not resolved. The Camelyn nobles haven't been sitting around for a couple books (or their moving armies mentioned) and finally resolved in the last book?

And Catelyn is a more realistic and interesting female character than any Jordan has ever created on his finest day. She has aspects that are unlikeable, but they're also understandable. And she is distinctively different from all the other females in the books. As is just about every other female character Martin's written whose gotten any real page time. These are characters...not irritating placeholders who exist because the author isn't sure what to do with the much more interesting main characters. (again, the ones that he hasn't already neutered)

As for the Aes Sedai, its pretty clear they were indeed a mostly competant organization pre Artutr Hawkwing.

No its pretty clear that RJ told but did not show. He told us that they were great, intelligent, insightful and manipulative powers that moved kingdoms by subtle scheming or sheer force of will. There was nothing that he showed us in their portrayal to suggest that any of them have ever been capable of such things. In fact every portrayal of Aes Sedai we suggests the opposite. But you're a fanboy/girl. You'll accept RJ's statements as truth and look for the little twig or two that might support your untenable position while missing the whole damned forest of obvious.

And I've always wanted to know, why is their lack of success in direct combat taken as a sign of overall incompetance? That's like saying Tywin was incompetant since Robb would have beaten him in single combat!

For someone who doesn't want to turn this into a Martin v. Jordan pissing contest, you sure seem to be bringing up asoiaf quite alot. Tywin was a competent villain. He had an enemy...he eliminated that enemy. Not a single forsaken has managed to do that to anyone relevant. And the forsaken were some of the most powerful channelers of their time, a time with much more powerful channelers than is common today, in a time where the power was much better understood, all of whom most likely received thorough educations in its capabilities and applications. They've also used them extensively in warfare, fighting one near apocalypse already. They are fighting one powerful, yet half trained boy. A few others with significant power but even less training (Aes Sedai are not learning from Age of Legends warlords, but merely the scraps they've been able to hold onto from that much more advanced age), and a divided tower mostly filled with much, MUCH weaker cannon fodder. And yet they've achieved almost nothing.

A rant. Exactly. You sacrificed a debate for the sake of a silly rant. Says a lot about you.

What's there to debate? You've asked for a worthless, irrelevant comparison. Spent several posts now whining about how we shouldn't bring Martin into this when you in fact made the comparison. Your defenses amount to inept rationalizations. Your posts display all the hallmarks of deluded fanboyism. You start almost every response with an accusation that the other person hasn't read the series (or not closely enough), and than bitch about a lack of politeness. I could say more, but I'd rather not have this post deleted.

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Just for the record:

Rand is insane and he knows it. There is no doubt. Jordan has been rather blunt about that in the last book after realizing that the fans just wouldn't get it

If the fans don't get it, then that is the fault of the writer, not the fans. Don't you think if you ahve to come right out and TELL people what is happening outside of the book, then you might have a problem with plot development IN the book?

Everytime someone smooths a skirt or tugs a braid.... DRINK!

;)

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I say this out of love and compassion for my fellow man; Drugs are bad. What corner did Martin write himself into again? And I fricken wish Jordan would have found a corner to write into. Because it beats the hell out of exponentially expanding his cast and world beyond his ability to sustain any narrative at all, let alone an interesting one. Comparing aSoIaF to WoT is like comparing the Godfather to Christian Slater's Mobster's. Sure you can do it, but why would you want to?

As I am comparing one nearly complete series to one half over {and sputtering for some reason}, you are comparing two complete works. My argument is that any complete series {or just about complete} tops one that is getting stuck, even if the incomplete one has more potential.

8 years between books with just half a book thrown out as a bone? If that happened to WoT, I would have thought Jordan had died.

Bit of a problem? You are one of the most tolerant and yet misguided people I've ever come across.

They are published and they are there. My tolerance comes from the point that I waited two years for each one of these books to come out. But I do admit that I pretty much skipped over Perrin's chapters at the time.

Would that be when Rand and friends completely obliterated a billion trollocs that suddenly came out of someones ass (god forbid anyone set scouts) before finishing their toast and orange juice?

The battle of Illian in book 8, the fight for Shadar Logoth in book 9 and the the Band of the Red Hand in book 11 for the later books. I thought the trolloc raid was so successful exactly because they did come out of someone's ass.

The guy has a voice in his head that is most likely real. And he whines to himself alot. Yeah...real headcase there.

Actually, I was thinking more of the Asha'man headcases. I would say Lews Therin and Rand's madness is more of a plot point but you shouldn't care about that.

Would that be the part about world weary 20 somethings who have seen dozens of battles and a thousand deaths still acting like immature 5 year olds who think girls have cooties? Or is skirt smoothing and braid tugging just that hilarious?

Hmm, I was thinking more along the lines of Mat accidently marrying the woman he was fated to marry while planning to run away from here if he should ever meet her, as well as other aspects of his story. Not because she has "cooties" but because he really doesn't want the responsibilty of saving the world.

Rand's problem was that he was just as much in love with all 3 women and he felt that was unfair to all of them as he is fated to die quite soon. Perrin was married by the end of book 5. What is this "cooties" thing coming from anyway?

Name a major character that has really sacrificed anything in the series yet. And no she doesn't count cause its been hinted for 20 books now that she's coming back. Nope, everyone who was there in book 1 is still there now. No lost lovers either. Just alot of internal whining.

So people in your opinion are only limited to sacrficing their lives? Rand was told that he would go mad and die early in the series but he went ahead with his plan anyway. He made the Black Tower around the very idea {by accident} that if you should die but the world survive then it's a good trade. Perrin just wants to be a blacksmith, he doesn't want to lead and especially he doesn't want to kill but he's very good at all three. Mat has given up his simple life of gambling and womanizing to become a general and a member of a royal family.

It's a strange sort of sacrifice {for you anyway} but they are giving up their dreams and their possibles lives for the world. And it's kind of hard to make a series around dead main characters.

This is one of the lamest excuses for the series turning to shit that I've ever heard. That's your argument? Other long epics are bad too? Maybe if he hadn't forgotten that plot and progression are usually two words that like to go together, this series wouldn't have had to be dragged out near the 'length of time' it was.

Jordan had to get Mat, Perrin and Rand where they ended up in book 11 so he had to set up the plot threads to end about there for each character. True, it would have been better if he wrote the whole thing out at once but that would have meant Jordan would have had to finish book 11 before publishing book 8.

By long epics, I meant stories written over a long period of time with only a vague idea of how it will end. Someone mentioned Terry Pratchett's discworld so I'll use that as an example. He's made a loose confederation of series based around a central world but he is having problems with most of them. The Rincewind series is fantasy/travelogue and he's running out of new areas {he did promise one more Rincewind novel but I don't how}, the Nightwatch series has to come into a battle between Vimes and Carrot over the Throne but that would end the series with a Thud! {Didn't care for that one that much}. Agnes has killed off the Witch series as she's a remarkable unappealing character {He may just go back to solo Granny stories} and the Death series has a similar problem with Susan.

It's gotten so bad, he started a new series off of Moist Von Lipwig. But he was meant to be merely a stand alone discworld novel so it's hard to say how that will work out.

And the Lord of the Rings doesn't count as the whole thing was written before even one page of it was printed.

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Just as a general comment, and I know some Martin fans might disagree, but time between volumes is irrelevant as it pertains to the quality of the series. (AKA, it doesn't apply at all to questions of quality) Feast for Crows will still be Feast for Crows if it was released 1 year or 10 years after. I won't give an author a pass if he releases shit simply because he doesn't take long to do it. If we used that standard to measure anything, Turtledove would be the greatest author who ever lived. (As it stands now I could write the first two and last two pages of every one of his chapters, as they essentially repeat the same damned things. And I largely suspect that he hasn't written a book wholly on his own in years. Probably has a closet full of 'interns' doing it for him)

The reverse applies as well, I also won't give a work undue criticism for taking too long. I'll criticize the fact that it did take forever and perhaps give the author shit for it, but the work itself stands or falls on its own merits. And if anyone came to the series today, the fact that we waited 5 years for Feast would mean less than nothing to them.

I've got other things I can do to fill a wait for any book, no matter how long. The only question is how was my experience of actually reading the damned thing. If I'm sitting there wondering when the main cast is going to grow up, when the irritating side characters are gonna fall into a giant pit and die, and when plots that were started 2-3 books before and still haven't resolved or achieved any meaningful progress will actually get going...well, that's not a good sign.

I've got my worries with martin after Feast. But its one book out of 4, the first three arguably being the best bit of epic fantasy the genre has ever seen, so I don't really worry too much yet. Martin is a much more talented writer, with stronger prose and a finer, more nuanced grasp of characterization and storytelling. He'd literally have to try to fuck things up to have a run of ineptness as long and as bad as Jordan. So yes, I'll compare the near completed series to the half completed series because the worst of Martin is better than the best of Jordan. And I actually liked some of Jordan's earlier efforts.

Not because she has "cooties" but because he really doesn't want the responsibilty of saving the world.

If he was trying to avoid responsibility he quite simply wouldn't be there. But he is there and is engaging in a courtship ritual that's about as mature as hitting the girl on the playground, running away and coming back again. We're nearly a dozen books into this and every major character is still in whiny denial mode of the eventual role they'll have to play. I can only take so much childish brooding.

Rand's problem was that he was just as much in love with all 3 women and he felt that was unfair to all of them as he is fated to die quite soon. Perrin was married by the end of book 5. What is this "cooties" thing coming from anyway?

Rand's problem is that Jordan couldn't decide which lover to give them so in a bit of masturbatory geek wish fulfillment, he gave them all of them. Than he wrote all the women to inexplicably have no real problem with that fact. And the cooties? Once more back to the very immature character interactions that are a hallmark of this series from the very beginning (when it was understandable) to the end (where its absurd). Adult lovers expressing their hatred of eachother before one carrying the other off and spanking her, at which swoons for the next couple hundred pages. Each main protagonist insisting they know nothing about women and that their friends are so much more skilled with them. Mat's saga as a 'pet' where he continually shouted to himself that he wasn't a pet, but kind of grew into the role, and internally railed against it and so on and so forth. Males are all woolheads and the general lack of communication between the sexes...or anyone for that matter. Each group of women fighting to be pushier and bitchier than the next. There really is not a single adult relationship in the entire series. None of them have once dealt with relationships in a mature, realistic manner.

Rand was told that he would go mad and die early in the series but he went ahead with his plan anyway

And its been more than heavily hinted that he'll be revived somehow. And even if he does die, its not like he's sacrificing anything. A: Give up and let the world be conquered by satan, all your friends and loved ones destroyed, and eventually you get killed too. B: Fight and probably die, but most of what you cherish will probably survive if you win. Gee, let me think.

He made the Black Tower around the very idea {by accident} that if you should die but the world survive then it's a good trade. Perrin just wants to be a blacksmith, he doesn't want to lead and especially he doesn't want to kill but he's very good at all three. Mat has given up his simple life of gambling and womanizing to become a general and a member of a royal family.

I know Perrin just wants to be a blacksmith. He's whined about it every other page for 5 or so books now. Mat the same. And frankly, its damned irritating. 'We can't live our simple, anonymous lives because fate has greater things in store for us'...boo fricken hoo!! Seriously, after the first couple years...you probably get over that and start to accept reality. But Mat still pretends that he doesn't speak the old tongue or have generals whispering in his ear. Rand doesn't explain anything to anyone even though it could smooth a number of misunderstandings and potentially lead to some useful discoveries. And Perrin has spent the last few books wife obsessed, so he's been less than useless himself. For once I want a damned fantasy protagonist that says "Savior of the world and ruler of nations? that's kinda cool" or at the very least "Ya know, I didn't like being a hick farmboy all that much, this is MUCH better!"

Jordan had to get Mat, Perrin and Rand where they ended up in book 11 so he had to set up the plot threads to end about there for each character. True, it would have been better if he wrote the whole thing out at once but that would have meant Jordan would have had to finish book 11 before publishing book 8.

No, it would have simply meant that Jordan structure the story differently to ensure no 5 book dry spells bereft of meaningful progress. The fact is there are very few interesting things left in his world. Rand is sort of interesting, but he's been almost chronically absent from most of the last several books. The Black Tower is interesting, but it hasn't had more than a few pages devoted to it since its inception. Jordan has been deathly afraid of showing these things for whatever reason and instead fills pages with redundant, irrelevant Aes Sedai/Knitters/Sea-bitches/Wisewomen pursuing plots that we'd long since forgotten about and never cared about in the first place.

But if it was all about getting the characters in the right place to launch the big finale, and if we accept that their current placement is 'the right place', our only question is could Jordan have gotten the characters to where they are in less time? And the answer is abso-fricken-lutely. Faile was a fricken rescue. That could have been completed the book after it happened. There has not been enough relevant progress with the White Tower storming to justify a second book, that could have been completed as well. Cutting a chunk of Mat's courtship? Please god can we?!! And the Camylan noble thing...did anyone still realize that was going on pre-bath? Quickly and easily finished. And Rand has cleansed the taint...only remotely relevant thing he's done since about book 7.

All of this shit, all of it could have been rapped up with characters in place by book 8 or 9. Easily.

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I've never quite understood WoT debates. It's much like people debating the quality of a four year old's fingerpainting kindergarten project. One side going, "The reason his depiction of his puppy looks like a blob with fur, is due to how the artistic expresses his feelings that the puppy has become plain in appearance due to other factors contesting for his affection and attention. It's a masterpiece of art, as it clearly demonstrates the fingerpainter's philosophy that reality exists only in the way that we translate it, and thus things of the flesh morph into abstract ideals based upon our own conceptions and..."

And then you have the other side going, "It looks like a blob because a down syndrome four year old who doesn't know the difference between a bed and a urinal decided to paint his puppy, but due to sheer artistic idiocy made it look like an anus."

I can't honestly think that any intelligent person thinks WoT is actually a good piece of artwork. If you enjoy it, alright, that's fine; enjoying absolute filth is one thing. Thinking it is good is another entirely.

If you read these books when you were 10, and the childish flirting, interactions, and autistic plot development seemed to be better than your Ninja Turtles lunchbox to you at the time, then I understand. But if someone is a grown adult and thinks that Jordan's characters interact realistically, that he actually has anything intelligent or worthy of analysis of his book, that he has pacing and plotting that is anything more than a tool used to encourage people to commit seppuku at suicide parties....then dear God I am speechless.

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I've never quite understood WoT debates. It's much like people debating the quality of a four year old's fingerpainting kindergarten project. One side going, "The reason his depiction of his puppy looks like a blob with fur, is due to how the artistic expresses his feelings that the puppy has become plain in appearance due to other factors contesting for his affection and attention. It's a masterpiece of art, as it clearly demonstrates the fingerpainter's philosophy that reality exists only in the way that we translate it, and thus things of the flesh morph into abstract ideals based upon our own conceptions and..."

And then you have the other side going, "It looks like a blob because a down syndrome four year old who doesn't know the difference between a bed and a urinal decided to paint his puppy, but due to sheer artistic idiocy made it look like an anus."

I can't honestly think that any intelligent person thinks WoT is actually a good piece of artwork. If you enjoy it, alright, that's fine; enjoying absolute filth is one thing. Thinking it is good is another entirely.

If you read these books when you were 10, and the childish flirting, interactions, and autistic plot development seemed to be better than your Ninja Turtles lunchbox to you at the time, then I understand. But if someone is a grown adult and thinks that Jordan's characters interact realistically, that he actually has anything intelligent or worthy of analysis of his book, that he has pacing and plotting that is anything more than a tool used to encourage people to commit seppuku at suicide parties....then dear God I am speechless.

I am not 10 and I am enjoying it immensely. I am only 100 pages into the first book but I find it a really fun read so far.

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1) Of course the WOT world is stuffed full of references to myth and real places in our time. Artur Hawking =King Arthur. Camelyn = Camelot. Time is a fucking circle people. He deliberately throws in these references to give you that idea. The place is full of names and stories that either come from our time or will inspire our time. Hell, there's the old legend of Mosk and Merk, the 2 feuding brothers with their spears that could reach around the world. What's the problem?

2) Funnily enough, WOT and ASOIAF follow about the same plot. Their pretty close in oveall structure.

- Big evil coming from the north to kill us all

- people prophesied to end it are born

- most of the world too busy fighting amongst themselves to know it

The Dark One was put on the back burner just like The Others because their being ignored by everyone, who are too busy fighting amongst themselves. In WOT this is quite deliberate. One of hte main thrusts of the DO plan is "Let the Lord of Chaos rule". Essentially, keep everyone too busy fighting each other to worry about the real threat. And it's working.

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2) Funnily enough, WOT and ASOIAF follow about the same plot. Their pretty close in oveall structure.

- Big evil coming from the north to kill us all

- people prophesied to end it are born

- most of the world too busy fighting amongst themselves to know it

Described this vaguely, this is also the plot of LOTR, Shannara, Sword of Truth, Prince of Nothing, Malazan or First Law. That the vague outline of the story seems similar isn't a guarantee that the real plot has the same quality, or is comparable at all. Was it what you were trying to say?
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Described this vaguely, this is also the plot of LOTR, Shannara, Sword of Truth, Prince of Nothing, Malazan or First Law. That the vague outline of the story seems similar isn't a guarantee that the real plot has the same quality, or is comparable at all. Was it what you were trying to say?

That many stories use the same pattern. That the WOT series ignoring the DO for many books is not some huge failing, but is in fact the point, just like it is in ASOIAF.

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Ah right, of course it's not a failing. My own personal beef with the story, that you don't agree on but nevertheless, is about execution, not about general outline.

Oh, I think there's problems in execution.

That doesn't mean it's not a good series. It's still well written and worth reading. Most peoples complaints have so been been pretty dumb or completely uninformed (see EHK's rants).

And the fact that no WOT thread on this board is capable of going more then 2 pages before a people start shiting all over the series and how awful it is, is just tiring.

EDIT: What Wert says below me too.

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I've never quite understood WoT debates...

This much is evident.

WoT clearly divides people and opinions and people can get quite heated about it. Why, I'm not sure. Jordan is nowhere near as crazy and offensive as say Goodkind. So why people take it as a great affront to theimselves and the universe when someone says they like Jordan, despite his obvious popularity, is something I can never fathom.

If people want to discuss the series in a more rational manner that's fine. If they want to see red and stridently proclaim that anyone who likes Jordan is a moron or that anyone who doesn't like Jordan is a moron, they can take it somewhere else.

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If people want to discuss the series in a more rational manner that's fine. If they want to see red and stridently proclaim that anyone who likes Jordan is a moron or that anyone who doesn't like Jordan is a moron, they can take it somewhere else.

If people like Jordan, I do not think they are morons.

If they consider Jordan's work to be a masterpiece of writing, genius, brilliant, or they think he has a talent for characterization, plotting, or pacing...well, I don't consider them morons in that case so much as feel pity that most mental disorders are chronic.

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If people like Jordan, I do not think they are morons.

If they consider Jordan's work to be a masterpiece of writing, genius, brilliant, or they think he has a talent for characterization, plotting, or pacing...well, I don't consider them morons in that case so much as feel pity that most mental disorders are chronic.

I would argue that the first four books were very close to being a masterpiece of fantasy fiction, but I wouldn't argue very hard.

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I would argue that the first four books were very close to being a masterpiece of fantasy fiction, but I wouldn't argue very hard.

Yes, I kept hearing that opinion until I read the series for myself, only to discover how atrocious and childish even the beginning books were. Enjoyable for young teenagers, maybe, but there's more intellect and maturity in Harry Potter. You know something is awful when you're using Harry Potter as a superior comparison.

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So why people take it as a great affront to theimselves and the universe when someone says they like Jordan, despite his obvious popularity, is something I can never fathom.

Nothing IMO wrong with enjoying Jordan. But there is a difference between enjoying a book and thinking it's a really good contribution to the world of books. Indeed, the only redeemable thing to say about WoT is that it's entertained the masses, because it's never done anything else like innovate the genre or challenge the reader. The last decade has seen it reduced to the status of relic. If people sometimes react with shock and exasperation to the claim that this is good literature, it's only because those people care about literature.

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I've got to introduce some of you guys to the pro-Jordan camp over on SFFWorld, whose opinions are intriguing to say the least:

I find it hard to see how anyone can argue convincingly that ASOIAF shows more imagination than WOT. Jordan's imagination is far more fecund than Martin's. From a writing standpoint Martin's might be more cogently written and less prone to digression. In a sense therefore I can understand the argument that he is a technically better writer. But I do not read fantasy epics for good technical writing. I read it more for grand vision and storytelling. Sorry but I do not see Martin in the same league as Jordan in that department. Instead what I see is Martin using certain tricks to make up for the lack of imaginative content. Relative to Jordan Martin titillates his audience far more with sex and violence than he does with fantastic possibilities. Take the titillation out of his writing and you have some rather plain fantasy. It surprises me therefore that so many find ASOIAF supposedly more "realistic" when in its execution the writing to me comes off as decidedly faker.

I enjoy Early WoT far more than a lot of people here but I'm probably more scathing about 8-10 than most people. However, it's been a good six or seven years since I last read the first few books, so I'm holding off any further defence/exploration of the series until I re-read it again.

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