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Wheel of Time


me399

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Well again, you're ignoring that the Forsaken also had millions of channelers working under them to effect the plans they came up with. Also a lot of technology which is unavailable now.

Extremely powerful even in their own time. Know much more about the power. Were trained and educated in much more of the power. 3,000 years ago they were competent enough to be the arch-villains leading Satan's armies. Now they are routinely whooped on by kids without inflicting a relevant casualty. All the rationalizations in the world will not change this fact. They're incompetent. And barely a threat.

And how do you miss that the various channeleing organizations have very different ways of establishing heirarchy? It doesn't matter how pushy an AS is, its only her strength that matters.

He's told us that different female groups have various means of establishing heirarchy. He's shown us that when it comes down too it, bitchiness and pushiness is all that matters.

Why should this be mentioned?

Because a magic free human city is a pretty major, unique and remarkable feat. its simply something that would have come up over 5-6 books. Not suddenly pulled out of the author's ass when he needs to manufacture tension for a main character who's grown too powerful.

See, this is what I meant when I said you make baseless allegations. Aram was a Darkfriend? Where did you get that?

I never said he was. But fan boards have had a 'Is he or isn't he?' section of speculation on Aram since the character was first introduced. I merely said that Jordan will (or would have) probably cop out and ruin one of his only truly ambiguous characters by making him yet another 'evil for evils sake' type.

where he says that many women have told him they were surprised he was not a woman since he wrote women characters so well?

If this was ever actually said by a real person...that person is a moron.

As for a normal Darkfriend or a Black Sister, they hear the same stuff passed down the grapevine. Such promises have been made for centuries.

You make a good point. Satan boy has been making these promises for centuries even when he was in absolutely no position to grant them. Yet there have been oodles of 'evil for evils saker's' who have worn the silly black hats even though, short of being gibbering idiots, they must have known that Satan boy wasn't seeing freedom in their lifetime and couldn't grant them shit. "do unspeakable evil acts and I might remember you a thousand years from now and revive you once I'm able to"...yeah, the sales job is even more absurd in past generations. Not only is the concept not the least bit realistic...its pretty damned silly.

its you who's labelling every antagonist as a Darkfriend.

No, I never did. But the fact is most of them are. And the rest are either darkfriend dupes or utter morons.

So, if some random author has only hints of magic in his series, and then suddenly, with no warning, resolves a major plot issue with "Power spell 1" which destroys a whole army in one go, we cannot accuse him of misusing magic and lacking any system?

You were using that standard to compare WoT to Martin. Martin has never done 'power spell 1'. Until he does, you've made another utterly pointless statement.

so as to reduce the suspension of dusbelief expected

You've already suspended disbelief to the point of lunacy with your defenses of WoT, why would you pretend to give a shit about it when it comes to Martin? Tyrion could shit dragons tomorrow and take over Westeros and its still be more plausible and realistic than half the shit in Randland.

So Egwene, Elayne and Nynaeve (the major female characters of WoT) are all merely bitchy and bull their braids?

Yes.

So when Egwene feels sad that soldiers will die for her cause, she's being bitchy? When Nynaeve is devastated and furious that youngsters from her village were plucked away from their innocent lives and thrown into Aes Sedai machinations, and intends to sacrifice herself for them, she's being bitchy? Whenever Elayne displays her tendency to play the diplomat, she's being bitchy?

Basically, in all scenes these characters have been in, they've been bitchy?

Yes, yes, yes...and yes.

As for Elayne's stroyline, no the nobles have not simply been sitting around. The six houses that supported Dyelin have been down south preventing the Aes Sedai rebels from crossing into Andor. Those beseiging Caemplyn were, well besieging it, while shoring up their own support and also undermining Elayne by making deals with mercenaries working for her so that they'd betray her at the right time.

Blah, blah, blah...Elayne has rival claimants and needs to solidify her reign. Its an incidental sideplot of only the most minor significance to the overall plot. Most of the characters involved are neither interesting nor necessary. Have the magic bath of exposition a few books earlier, cut it to 2-3 pages, fight the damned war, storyline finished in under 50 pages.

As for the Rebels, Egwene had no power to order an attack till book 8.

This shit is getting annoying. If she didn't have the pull to order the assault, its because RJ wrote it that way. If he wanted her to have it, she would have had it. It didn't have to be written the way it was. It could have very easily and convincingly been written the other way. But the fact is 4 books ago (or so) a big army marched through a portal to invade. And 4 books later they aren't even close to resolution. And all that's happened in the interim is some bitching, a big chain, capture...and some more posturing and bitching. How you can call this progress I have no idea.

In the end, the the last three books were slower than before. That scarcely means nothing happened, as you claimed.

Yes it does.

Well, that's your opinion, and you're entitled to it. Sure as hell isn't fact.

Yes it is.

Whenever they (exceptions mentioned before) confront a foe who isn't cowed down by their reputation, they're caught wrong footed.

Which raises a couple questions. How did they develop that reputation when they're all moronic twits? And how do they maintain that reputation when everyone they encounter directly soon realizes that they're all moronic twits? Gossip spreads. Even in medievalville.

Well lets see... insingle combat, with the exception of Aginor, none have shown any incompetance.

Balthamel died fighing a Nyn, and took him down too.

Blah, blah, blah, blah...they all fought. They all lost badly. They didn't inflict a single casualty on a major character nor disrupt any major plans. Good always win. Maybe good overpowers. Maybe someone saves the day in the nick of time. But shit always turns out fine and dandy and evil is either killed or sent home with pants thoroughly pissed. They're as threatening as evil, toothless hamsters.

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Not exactly what I was talking about. I know Jordan's explanations for all of these things, but my problem with them is that they aren't really explained in relation to his magic system. How does an elemental system like his necessitate the existence of alternate worlds of reflection and possibility? What is the relationship between magic and the world, that it gives rise to these reflections? If something is outside the normal magic, what does that mean, what other repercussions might it have? Beyond the basics, though, that's getting very metaphysical, and I don't think I ever expected philosophy from him.

Nothing about the One Power necessitates these other worlds. In fact, as Dreamers don't have to be channelers, he goes out of his way to show they aren't actually connected. Just because the OP is the dominant force right now doesn't mean it always was or always will be. There's a fa bigge and more mysterious world outside what we know of from the books. The Portal Stones and other things like that are there to show us that there's other things in the world we won't touch on or won't explain. To make the world feel larger.

Because a magic free human city is a pretty major, unique and remarkable feat. its simply something that would have come up over 5-6 books. Not suddenly pulled out of the author's ass when he needs to manufacture tension for a main character who's grown too powerful.

Well it may be noteworthy, Far Madding is a minor power at best. Their a nothing, unimportant tiny little city state. Of course their not really mentioned. We do get a good sense of their female dominated culture though if you pay attention to who is FROM Far Madding and how those people behave.

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Honestly, the more I think about ASOIAF, the more I think many people may end up disappointed with the series. Considering Mankind vs The Others is in many ways the points of the whole thing.

That's heavily hinted sure, but we don't know that. The invasion of the others may simply end up being just one more factor the rival claimants must contend with as they vie for supremacy. It'll still be a threat, but that doesn't mean everyone leaps into some common brotherhood for humanity to fight the northern surge.

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That's heavily hinted sure, but we don't know that. The invasion of the others may simply end up being just one more factor the rival claimants must contend with as they vie for supremacy. It'll still be a threat, but that doesn't mean everyone leaps into some common brotherhood for humanity to fight the northern surge.

Martin's a better writer then that, but I still think the whole second half of the series is gonna be about people putting shit back together and realizing where the real threat lies. All the political intrigue and such people loved so much has just been a distraction from the real threat.

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Honestly, the more I think about ASOIAF, the more I think many people may end up disappointed with the series. Considering Mankind vs The Others is in many ways the points of the whole thing.

Yeah, demon frost zombies of pure evil vs humanity sounds like standard shit to me, and I rather almost wish that the series had ended with book 3, never included Dany, and just been a focus on Stark vs Lannister.

where he says that many women have told him they were surprised he was not a woman since he wrote women characters so well?

Have you ever actually interacted with the opposite sex before? I'm thinking not if you think Jordan's women are realistic. And if the women you have interacted with ARE like Jordan's females, I'm extremely surprised you haven't turned gay.

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Me399, please feel free to start another thread. I suggest making it about The Eye of the World by itself and your feelings on reading it, and others can chime in.

This thread has run its course and is being closed.

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