Jaime

[The Boar of Gore]

I'm going to go out on a limb here and guess that most of Jaime's fans are female.

He's handsome, rich, and a complete arrogant, self-centered bastard, which makes him highly sexually attractive. All GRRM had to do to win over the female audience completely was to show us a hint of a sensitive side, a hint that there's a chance he could change, and that's enough to enable women to rationalize their attraction to him and bring their intellects in line with their instincts.

Am I completely wrong in this? Are there lots of guys posting here who also converted to raging Jaime fans after reading his POV chapters? Conversely are there lots of girls posting here who can't stand him and are not willing to forgive him his incest, child-murder, and breathtaking arrogance just because he started to complain that he was misjudged?

I wonder how many people would be so eager to forgive him if he were not handsome - or rich, or arrogant?

You can turn the tables on me and claim I'm only unwilling to absolve Jaime because I'm jealous and perhaps there's something in that: perhaps if I were, like him, able to ignore everyone else's opinions because of who my father was and because no-one could beat me with a sword and follow my whims I would(?). But that's beside the main point, which is that Jaime gets a pass based primarily on his attractiveness points, not on rational argument.

What do you all think?

[TheThirdStrongest]

Geesh harsh words. You sound like the Hound! You're totally right though, he's an asshole so girls like him. But I'm sure it's just "confidence" ah huh.

I like him more now that he's changed. Definitely.

[Skyrazer]

I'm a guy and I went from hating him, to...sorta liking him after he gets his own POV. He becomes a very interesting character when he loses his hand and his POV chapters are some of the best, but I'm not one of his "fans".

As for the girls...well I guess his humor would be a big part of the attraction. Girls like humor or something don't they?

[Tywin]

I think the reasons for Jaime have a big female fan following is exactly for the reasons you listed Beowulf777.

In my view... He's one of those grey characters that are appealing for being very human. Jaime is as conflicted and flawed as any of us.

He was willing to kill Bran - yet for the sake of his family honour and the love he bore his sister. Debating whether this is right or wrong isn't the issue - more so the motivations. [Especially since we'd be judging on modern day standards... Which aren't in line with the standards of Westeros.]

He shows chauvinistic qualities to Brienne but is oddly attracted to her.

He does the whole cocky-funny alpha male routine that women seem to like.

He has morals and an oath as a member of the Kingsguard. A man with principles seems to be attractive.

Plus the fact he eats a huge wedge of humble pie after losing his hand further show off that he is a multi-dimensional, human character with frailties in a fairly strong and obvious way.

I do agree and think people overlook his flaws and past actions because of him being a pretty boy and that the actions are forgotten as they are done in a very straight forward, basic pre-meditated way.

If we were given insights into how he planned things in a Littlefinger/Varys fashion people might be less forgiving, but perhaps not.

But because the meat and potato method of reasoning seems to sums up how Jaime Lannister has approached many of the hard obstacles in his past it's some how easier to forgive.

Things are done for love and honour. It helps that he has the noble station backing this up...

[mormont]

I think it's foolish to make sweeping generalisations.

[Tywin]

I think it's foolish to make sweeping generalisations.

Typically... Expand on that please. Otherwise your point is ambiguous at best.

[mormont]

The original post is full of them. That most fans of Jaime are female. That females find such and so qualities attractive in a man. That female fans therefore like Jaime because they find him attractive.

In my experience, all sorts of people like Jaime for all sorts of reasons.

[Tywin]

The original post is full of them. That most fans of Jaime are female. That females find such and so qualities attractive in a man. That female fans therefore like Jaime because they find him attractive.

In my experience, all sorts of people like Jaime for all sorts of reasons.

Yeah. That's fair enough. I think the word 'most' is a dangerous word to use.

I personally like to use the word 'seems' before making those types of statements or 'a lot of' when referring to group.

I don't think Beowulf 777's reasoning is necessarily flawed though and he does raise some good points.

As a male fan - I like the character because he reminds me of Tyrion in terms of his Lannister-ness [if that makes sense?] but the fact we are given the insights into his personal changes and views and why he justifies his actions as the right decisions at the time - especially regarding Aerys.

I also find the observations on his moral attitude and code of honour as a knight being challenged by the things he has to face up to as highly compelling.

[Ser Hot Pie]

I think it's foolish to make sweeping generalisations.

Oh, all Scots think like that...

[JoannaL]

"I wonder how many people would be so eager to forgive him if he were not handsome - or rich, or arrogant?"

Isnt Joffrey all that? Still I dont think a lot of people like him.

[Starkess]

Conversely are there lots of girls posting here who can't stand him and are not willing to forgive him his incest, child-murder, and breathtaking arrogance just because he started to complain that he was misjudged?

*raises hand*

Can't stand Jaime. I maybe hate him a tiny bit less now, but I still loathe him.

[Tywin]

"I wonder how many people would be so eager to forgive him if he were not handsome - or rich, or arrogant?"

Isnt Joffrey all that? Still I dont think a lot of people like him.

Yeah, he's a loathsome little shit [iMO and pardon my language] - but then again we never had the benefit of seeing things from his point of view. I'm not making the assumption that if we did, you or other readers might completely change your view - but some people might.

This seems to have been the case with Jaime Lannister and how people perceive him.

*raises hand*

Can't stand Jaime. I maybe hate him a tiny bit less now, but I still loathe him.

I'm going to venture the guess you hate him a little less is because you have the insights into his personality and the reasoning behind his motivations?

[raif snow]

They like him because Cersei likes him. In most social situations its actually the dominant female that choses which male will be chosen to reproduce, so all the young girls get their cue from Queen B just as Catelyn showed him favor by releasing him and Brienne protecting him, all Alpha females.

[Edda van Heefmstra Ruston]

I should give this more thought, raif, but that just capped off most of this thread, and all I can manage right now is :sick:

Or am I only supposed to think that if and when Cersei does?

[Stratonice]

Conversely are there lots of girls posting here who can't stand him and are not willing to forgive him his incest, child-murder, and breathtaking arrogance just because he started to complain that he was misjudged?

I wouldn't say I can't stand him but I'm pretty far away from being a fan too. He's an interesting character but not among my favourites.

I think it's foolish to make sweeping generalisations.

I agree.

[The Wedge]

It was easy to hate Jaime when all we had was outside POV thoughts on him.

He became sympathetic, charming, self-depricating, and witty once we got inside his head. His king-slaying became easier to understand when he explains it. Heck, even his relationship with Cercei is easier to take in the context of Targaryen incest.

When I get to a Jaime chapter heading in the book, I know I'm in for a good chapter.

[The Journeyman]

Jaime starts the series as a hated character. We know he's a spoiled, rich, arrogant prick. We also know that he killed the king he swore to protect with his life AND he could have laid claim tot he throne himself if he wanted to. After all, Aerys was dead and Lannister bannermen had taken over King's Landing.

Then you find out he's been having an incestuous relationship with his sister his entire life AND he pushes Bran Stark out a tower window, attempting to kill him. Let's face it: Jaime is a bad dude. He's a heartless bastard with shit for honor.

Fast forward to ASoS. Jaime gets his own POV and you get to see why he killed Aerys Targaryen. He saved the lives of roughly half a million people by taking one of an insane king. After he loses his hand he gets served up a nice huge slab of humble pie and his perspectives change. That, along with his very interesting relationship with Brienne changes him. You see how the "cover" of "Kingslayer" is removed and a real human is underneath.

I'd put Jaime as my third favorite character in the series. And yes, I'm a dude.

[Shewoman]

Martin set us up where Jaime's concerned, and I'm sure he did it on purpose. We hear all of Ned's doubts and suspicions about him. Although we see him when the royal entourage gets to Winterfell, our first real encounter with him is when he throws a lovable child down to almost-certain death. Somewhere in there we learn that he broke his oath to King Aerys, killing the man he swore to protect.

And then we get his PoV. We learn that his killing of Aerys was more understandable than we first thought. We learn more about his relationship with Cersei--that she won't let him see their kids, for instance. We see him wounded in a way that means he can't have the life he always wanted and expected to have, which is pretty much what he did to Bran. This in no way excuses what he did to Bran, but it's an interesting parallel between them. His relationship with Brienne also seems oddly redemptive (I don't mean he's redeemed, but it's a side of him that we--and maybe he--didn't know was there). She's ugly, she's anal about honor and keeping her word--she's everything he and Cersei are not, and yet he comes to respect her. In his last PoV in SoS when he's writing in the White Book, he seems quite different from the person we originally saw through Ned's eyes.

IMHO, this makes him an interesting character. He has more depth than, say, Jojen, Melisandre, or Theon. That doesn't necessarily make him likeable and it certainly doesn't excuse his attempted murder of a child, but it does add more depth to his story arc.

Oh good gods. I hate Cersei, although she did give us a lot of comic relief in AFFC, and I can't think why anyone would like Jaime simply because she does.

The Journeyman, I didn't see your post before I posted. I really didn't mean to repeat what you said!

[Bellis]

They like him because Cersei likes him. In most social situations its actually the dominant female that choses which male will be chosen to reproduce, so all the young girls get their cue from Queen B just as Catelyn showed him favor by releasing him and Brienne protecting him, all Alpha females.

I certainly don't like him because Cersei likes him. But I don't think that Cersei is the relevant alpha-female here. We see Cersei as an adversary long before we are given a chance to know Jaime well enough to like him. She's not the leader of our "group", as readers. She's the "enemy", the "rival".

Catelyn is a better example. She's the dominant female in our group, since we have her POV and sympathize with the Starks. When she says, "Is there any man as beautiful or loathsome as this?" (paraphrasing, I know that's not the exact quote), we as readers are inclined to take her word for it.

In ASOS and AFFC, the best example is Brienne. I do wonder whether I would have liked him much less, all other things being equal, if Brienne had not liked him. I sympathize and identify with Brienne, and I do tend to see the other characters as she sees them. The fact that she sees good in him goes a way to making me see that good as well.

I've gone with 3 females bc of Raif's original post, because I'm personally more likely to identify with the female characters. I suspect the same argument could be made for people who like or identify strongly with Tyrion, and therefore cut Jaime some slack because Tyrion likes him.

[Daena the Defiant]

Oh, all Scots think like that...

One should never generalize.