A wilding Posted February 9, 2008 Share Posted February 9, 2008 I've never run into a woman who's said "You must meet my boyfriend--he's so arrogant!" No, in my experience the minority of women who are attracted to bastards tend to make excuses for them instead: "He had to throw that boy out of the window." "It was all the fault of his obnoxious ex girlfriend Cersei. She made him do it." "He is a different person now, he has reformed, honestly." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Targaryen Posted February 9, 2008 Share Posted February 9, 2008 The fact that Jaime does seem to be trying to change from the person he was when we met him is intriguing. This doesn't mean I'm now prepared to have Jaime babysit my children or that I think he was right to throw Bran down--just that his character has more dimensions than it did in the first two books. You know Jaime has changed a lot in each book. In AGOT, he was defined mainly by jokes, vengeance, and glory-seeking.In ACOK, he was defined by defiance and honesty.In ASOS, he was defined by regret, redemption, and fundamental, vital change (losing the sword hand), and amends.In AFFC, he was defined by responsibility, being spurned (Cersei), integrity, and oathkeeping. Quite a transformation from AGOT to AFFC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starkaryan Posted February 10, 2008 Share Posted February 10, 2008 Starkaryen, I've never run into a woman who's said "You must meet my boyfriend--he's so arrogant!" We've all seen friends hook up with people and not understood the attraction. But it's not been my experience that all women prefer arrogant bastards. I didn't say "all", did I? I said "most", which is relative to the women I've known... which isn't a small number. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sio Posted February 10, 2008 Share Posted February 10, 2008 I'm going to go out on a limb here and guess that most of Jaime's fans are female. He's handsome, rich, and a complete arrogant, self-centered bastard, which makes him highly sexually attractive. All GRRM had to do to win over the female audience completely was to show us a hint of a sensitive side, a hint that there's a chance he could change, and that's enough to enable women to rationalize their attraction to him and bring their intellects in line with their instincts. Am I completely wrong in this? Are there lots of guys posting here who also converted to raging Jaime fans after reading his POV chapters? Conversely are there lots of girls posting here who can't stand him and are not willing to forgive him his incest, child-murder, and breathtaking arrogance just because he started to complain that he was misjudged? I wonder how many people would be so eager to forgive him if he were not handsome - or rich, or arrogant? You can turn the tables on me and claim I'm only unwilling to absolve Jaime because I'm jealous and perhaps there's something in that: perhaps if I were, like him, able to ignore everyone else's opinions because of who my father was and because no-one could beat me with a sword and follow my whims I would(?). But that's beside the main point, which is that Jaime gets a pass based primarily on his attractiveness points, not on rational argument. What do you all think? I'm male, and I kind of like Jaime - this started after he got his own POV chapters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Boar of Gore Posted February 10, 2008 Author Share Posted February 10, 2008 Well I guess there are plenty of male fans of Jaime after all. Maybe women are attracted to him and men want to be him! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bacchys Posted February 10, 2008 Share Posted February 10, 2008 To paraphrase George Costanza, I say this with an unblemished record of heterosexuality: Jaime has become one of the most interesting characters in the series. I don't like or dislike him, but I do love to turn the page onto his chapter in AFFC. We get a bigger look through his memories of events during Robert's Rebellion, people like Arthur Dayne, the Kingsguard, the Kingswood Brotherhood, and Aerys. We get another view of the Harrenhal tourney (which I think- along with Summerhall- is the key clue to what's going on) even though Jaime left before the most important things happened. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sio Posted February 10, 2008 Share Posted February 10, 2008 Maybe women are attracted to him and men want to be him! Hell no. I'd hate to be Jaime. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrainFireBob Posted February 10, 2008 Share Posted February 10, 2008 Beowulf777- your premise is flawed. To look at "attractiveness" as a reason to "like" Jaime, is to out-of-hand dismiss that anyone could like the character as is. I assume you're one of those whose assessment of Jaime stopped when he tossed Bran out the window, that be definition making him evil and irredeemable? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daemrion Posted February 10, 2008 Share Posted February 10, 2008 Well I guess there are plenty of male fans of Jaime after all. Maybe women are attracted to him and men want to be him! You have to be kidding!! No way would I ever want to be in Jaime's position. That said, it's not character specifics, it's character type that is probably what is hooking readers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brightwater Posted February 10, 2008 Share Posted February 10, 2008 I have missed reading these boards! This is such a great topic. Cersei: the Alpha Female of Jaime fans ... HAHAHAHAHAHAHA.. oh that was hysterical. It's nice to see that the men here still have the women readers all figured out. LOL. For the record, I'm a woman, and I absolutely love Jaime's character. In fact, I don't know how I will get through the next book without him! I don't really understand why some of you would think that it is because of his looks? I confess, he is described as hotness. Joff, however, as someone mentioned, was also described as looking very much like Jaime and I despised him. I wished many times that Sansa had pushed him out a window or something. Littlefinger is also described as handsome, but I don't like him either. Tyrion is very ugly, and I loved him in the beginning, but I hate him now. Jaime I absolutely detested in the beginning, but I adore him now. So I'm not this superficial that I would like characters based on their appearance or wealth or confidence. There is much more to it than that. And I rarely love or hate a character the whole way through a series of books. My feelings towards them almost always change. I love characters like that, I never know what they will do next. They are interesting and complex. Mysterious. Enthralling. Jaqen anyone? I loved him! I miss him! Can you accuse me of going after his looks when he had NO FACE?!? I love Jaime for the exact same reason that I love Arya. Complicated, brutally honest, frail humanity all twisted by harsh life circumstances and desperately trying to claw their way back up from the bottom of a savage society. EXCELLENT character development. For me, there is absolutely nothing more interesting then a villain or fallen character trying to redeem him or herself. I will love them so long as they are trying, or wanting to try, and haven’t sinned beyond redemption. Had Bran actually died or had Jaime actually flung a baby by catapult, then I would have no mercy or compassion for him. None. He would be beyond redemption. He’s holding on by a thread. Maybe Brienne will save him from himself. To play devil’s advocate, couldn't I just as easily ask why the men don't seem to love Brienne? Why do the men like Daenerys more than Brienne? Is the power-crazed, slave-owning, murderous waif-like and born of incest woman-child and all her desires to rule the world and raise people-eating dragons forgiven because she wears scant clothes and has platinum hair? Something wrong with good, strong, solid and virtuous Brienne????????????????? Too fat for you maybe? Too strong? Too ugly? Yep. Thought so. Men! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Targaryen Posted February 10, 2008 Share Posted February 10, 2008 To play devil’s advocate, couldn't I just as easily ask why the men don't seem to love Brienne? Why do the men like Daenerys more than Brienne? Is the power-crazed, slave-owning, murderous waif-like and born of incest woman-child and all her desires to rule the world and raise people-eating dragons forgiven because she wears scant clothes and has platinum hair? Something wrong with good, strong, solid and virtuous Brienne????????????????? Too fat for you maybe? Too strong? Too ugly? Yep. Thought so. Men! I love Brienne. Though only in ASOS and on a re-read of AFFC. "I am coming for you, Lady Sansa. Be not afraid. I shall not rest until I've found you." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Other-in-law Posted February 10, 2008 Share Posted February 10, 2008 To play devil’s advocate, couldn't I just as easily ask why the men don't seem to love Brienne? Why do the men like Daenerys more than Brienne? Is the power-crazed, slave-owning, murderous waif-like and born of incest woman-child and all her desires to rule the world and raise people-eating dragons forgiven because she wears scant clothes and has platinum hair? Something wrong with good, strong, solid and virtuous Brienne????????????????? Too fat for you maybe? Too strong? Too ugly? Yep. Thought so. Men! To be sure, I am rather fond of Brienne and Jaime both, but "slave-owning" is a tiresome and absurd slander to keep hearing against Dany. Greyworm kept his unpleasant name because: "It is a lucky name. The name this one was born to was accursed. That was the name he had when he taken for a slave. But Grey Worm is the name this one drew on the day Daenerys Stormborn set him free." Slave-owning is simply a baseless charge against her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tanna Posted February 10, 2008 Share Posted February 10, 2008 I like Jaime because he's flawed but trying to improve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anya, Vengeance Demon Posted February 10, 2008 Share Posted February 10, 2008 Starkaryan: That is such a bitter-nerd way of thinking: "What can't I get laid? Because I'm too good to be laid." Come the fuck on. Also, I like Jaime. But only because Cersei told me to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starkaryan Posted February 10, 2008 Share Posted February 10, 2008 Starkaryan: That is such a bitter-nerd way of thinking: "What can't I get laid? Because I'm too good to be laid." Come the fuck on. Also, I like Jaime. But only because Cersei told me to. lol, did i SAY i couldn't get laid? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Boar of Gore Posted February 10, 2008 Author Share Posted February 10, 2008 Hell no. I'd hate to be Jaime. I'd give my right arm to ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starkaryan Posted February 10, 2008 Share Posted February 10, 2008 I'd give my right arm to ... that would come with the territory, methinks... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Spidey Posted February 10, 2008 Share Posted February 10, 2008 I'd hate to be in his position, but being like Jaime is kinda appealing. Before he lost his hand, that is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
a_homeless_harpy Posted February 10, 2008 Share Posted February 10, 2008 I enjoy reading about Jaime but I am not fond of him . A handsome jerk is still a jerk when you got used to his looks and it was true for Jaime before he lost his hand. I like him being a dynamic character but I am not fond of him. Maybe there's something wrong with me because my favourites are Tyrion, Arya and Brienne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shewoman Posted February 10, 2008 Share Posted February 10, 2008 Those are my favorites too, homeless harpy! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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